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#998660 - 20th Jan 2016 1:11pm Do we need Trident?
derekdwc Online   content


Forum Veteran

Registered: 13th Oct 2008
Posts: 5015
Loc: Birkenhead
I don't know if it the only nuclear deterrent we have or if we have any land based one.
I think with the advances made with satellite surveillance drones,radar and computer hacking, that by the time Trident is built it would be too vulnerable to a first strike against it.
click

Fact is, the Navy has been seeking—pretty much under the surface—a way to do underwater what the Air Force has been doing in the sky: prowl stealthily for long periods of time, and gather the kind of data that could turn the tide in war.

The Navy’s goal is to send an underwater drone, which it calls a “glider,” on a roller-coaster-like path for up to five years. A fleet of them could swarm an enemy coastline, helping the Navy hunt down minefields and target enemy submarines.


Edited by derekdwc (20th Jan 2016 1:15pm)

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#998661 - 20th Jan 2016 1:28pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
Gibbo Offline
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Registered: 27th Dec 2010
Posts: 1787
Loc: Oxton
Its a very tricky question to answer. Whenever it comes up I'm always reminded how timeless "Yes Minister" was:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE

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#998664 - 20th Jan 2016 2:39pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10274
Loc: Birkenhead
There is no scenario where "pressing the button" gains us any advantage whatsoever. We know that and any potential threat knows that as well so the "deterrent" is nothing more than status symbol.

Or ..... if we really want we could choose to potentially wipe out the human race and many other creatures as well.

Its all pretty mute anyway, we do not own any means to launch a nuclear warhead.

The UK doesn't even own a nuclear threat/attack detection system.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#998680 - 20th Jan 2016 6:24pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
j_demo Offline
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Registered: 4th Nov 2011
Posts: 1880
Loc: Wallasey/New Brighton
do we need a nuclear missile system/deterrent? i think so

does that have to be trident? not necessarily, but what better options are there?

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#998736 - 21st Jan 2016 12:07am Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: diggingdeeper]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper


Its all pretty mute anyway, we do not own any means to launch a nuclear warhead.

The UK doesn't even own a nuclear threat/attack detection system.


I thought the submarines carried the ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads, and launched from the submarines,not from land. So they could be launched anywhere in the world as we don't know where these submarines get to. Which would mean there would not have to be a threat to UK for them to be used. On a greater scale it could see off North Korea !
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#998737 - 21st Jan 2016 1:08am Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10274
Loc: Birkenhead
You are correct @granny, the only nuclear weapons we have are Trident which are launched from submarines.

We own the submarines, we own the nuclear warheads but we do not own any launch missiles (Trident II D-5's).

We do not own the monitoring systems that indicate a nuclear attack against us.

Mentioning North Korea .... going from information that is starting to come to light, in the next few months there could be a complete re-think on North Korea. The USA may have done a little bit of deception to the rest of the world - its going to be interesting to see what stunt the USA will do to avoid a complete expose.

Think along the same lines as Cuba but worse - in reality during at least the last 25 years what threat was Cuba to the rest of the world or even the USA but how was Cuba portrayed? The USA has had Guantanamo Bay continuously since 1898 which shows how little threat Cuba has been.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#998738 - 21st Jan 2016 1:42am Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: diggingdeeper]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Don't really know much about Cuba. Used to listen to the News and wonder if my father was about to have a heart attack every time it came on. The reporting was pretty serious but I took little notice, being more interested in other things.
Fidel Castro was the fly in the ointment and only when he died did any changes really take place. Khrushchev was at the helm and I suppose it would be the same if US tried to place nuclear defence in Ukraine. Just assuming ,don't really know.

With regard to not owning any launch missiles, or the monitoring system, surely that is a means of security ? Meaning that when Mr Corbyn has a temper tantrum he cant say 'stuff the lot of you and goodbye' by pressing the button. laugh
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#998741 - 21st Jan 2016 9:51am Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
Excoriator Online   content
Guardian

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 904
Loc: wirral
I don't think a submarine is a very good way to deliver nuclear weapons. We should learn from the IRA's delivery system - Ford cortinas - which were used as a form of cruise missiles. Despite the Army's best efforts, these proved impossible to prevent, and devastated the centre of Belfast.

In the case of a nuclear equipped enemy, one can never be sure that they have not smuggled a nuke into your capital city well before the outbreak of hostilities. Modern ones are extremely compact and not particularly radioactive until detonated.

Not only is this approach likely to be more effective, it is also a lot cheaper.

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#998746 - 21st Jan 2016 12:01pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
BandyCoot Offline

Forum Veteran

Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5360
Loc: Birkenhead
I'm best off saying nothing.
_________________________
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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#998750 - 21st Jan 2016 1:27pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: granny]
OxtonHill Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 2nd Jun 2009
Posts: 311
Loc: Oxton
Originally Posted By: granny
Fidel Castro was the fly in the ointment and only when he died


He is not dead, last time I looked skull

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#998756 - 21st Jan 2016 2:44pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: OxtonHill]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: OxtonHill
Originally Posted By: granny
Fidel Castro was the fly in the ointment and only when he died


He is not dead, last time I looked skull


You are correct.Sorry, I thought he'd gone to greener pastures.
Taken last August on his birthday, but it looks as if it's time he was.

_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#998758 - 21st Jan 2016 2:58pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: granny]
Moonstar Offline

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Registered: 2nd Jul 2011
Posts: 1240
Loc: Wirral
I guess that if people start actually loosing off nuclear weapons at any time it wouldn't be a good place to live in the aftermath.

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#998759 - 21st Jan 2016 3:33pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: Moonstar]
Excoriator Online   content
Guardian

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 904
Loc: wirral
Originally Posted By: Moonstar
I guess that if people start actually loosing off nuclear weapons at any time it wouldn't be a good place to live in the aftermath.


No, indeed it wouldn't. It would certainly burst the property bubble if one went off in London!

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#998764 - 21st Jan 2016 5:07pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: derekdwc]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
If Russia declared war against the UK tomorrow, do you think we should still continue the moves to scrap Trident ?
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#998773 - 21st Jan 2016 6:10pm Re: Do we need Trident? [Re: granny]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10274
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: granny
If Russia declared war against the UK tomorrow, do you think we should still continue the moves to scrap Trident ?


Five scenarios come out of that:-

Russia presses the button first - UK gets obliterated, what would be the point of UK Trident's launching 12 hours later (or more) to wipe out a grand total of 2% of Russia.

Russia presses the button first and other countries join in with nuclear missiles flying everywhere - UK gets obliterated as does much of the rest of the world, what would be the point of UK Trident's launching 12 hours later (or more) to wipe out a grand total of 2% of Russia.

UK press the button first - Russia gets 2% wiped out, UK gets obliterated within 24 hours.

No nukes involved, Russia wipes out UK with conventional weapons at a cost of less than 1% of Russia.

No nukes involved, Russia wipes out UK with conventional weapons, rest of the world joins in and ends up with nuclear wipe-out of much of the world.

You can try and find a positive scenario but Trident doesn't help us one little bit.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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