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derekdwc #997868 11th Jan 2016 8:44pm
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I was watching a documentry the other night it included Neville Chamberlin waving the infamous piece of paper, the first thought that crossed my mind was Dave doing the same thing, waving a piece of meaningless paper not worth the wording written on it, but then this government has no grasp of reality.

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casper #997872 11th Jan 2016 9:00pm
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Originally Posted by casper
I was watching a documentry the other night it included Neville Chamberlin waving the infamous piece of paper, the first thought that crossed my mind was Dave doing the same thing, waving a piece of meaningless paper not worth the wording written on it, but then this government has no grasp of reality.


Yep, I wouldn't consider to changing to a yes vote on promises, its got to be done and dusted so we know what we are getting.

I think Cameron will get "verbal agreements" in Feb and pull a referendum as soon as possible afterwards and as you say, we actually end up empty handed.


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

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doglover4 #997873 11th Jan 2016 9:00pm
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Originally Posted by doglover4
really, most of them can't tie their own shoelaces let alone the idea of voting

That will be the ones with missing limbs who we shovelled off to fight The Perpetual War.I respect the youth of today for putting up with us if nothing else.

dustymclean #997893 12th Jan 2016 1:18am
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Originally Posted by dustymclean
Originally Posted by doglover4
really, most of them can't tie their own shoelaces let alone the idea of voting

That will be the ones with missing limbs who we shovelled off to fight The Perpetual War.I respect the youth of today for putting up with us if nothing else.


It won't end yet, not whilst Israel are able to use foreign troops as cannon fodder for their own political vendettas.
It doesn't matter what Cameron comes back with on the agreements , we have to start delving into the foreseeable future ourselves with regard to the changing face of Europe.
If we think Europe is emerging as a superpower, who will be leading the central government ? Germany, of course. If we are part of it we have to follow them. If they decide to go to war, we do too. Will they demand how many migrants we take ? Of course they will, there will be no such thing as choice.
Maybe there are too many superpowers and to be part of one is really tempting fate. Some twisted mind like Hitler to be obeyed !! Too big with too many different cultures for us to work eternally for the same ideology, successfully. Do any of us feel we have an affinity with any other EU country ? Artificial bonding is something that can't possibly work. You all know how Merkel gets her own way now and how she calls the tune....so it would only get worse. Brussels would control our tax,pensions and our bank accounts would be scrutinized. Just like our energy companies,and insurance companies have been sold out to foreign owners next stage will be massive take over of Estate Agents, Mortgage companies and rental companies. Anything that makes money in the financial sector will ultimately be utilised for the benefit of Europe as a whole.
UK Trade Unions might as well pack up if we do stay in. They will not be welcome in the long term.
Lets not forget the wonderful superpower USA too. So much of a superpower that they have no time to attend to their own people , all they do is intervene in everyone else affairs whether asked or not. Is that the type of Europe we want to be part of because that is how it will be. We shall be fighting someone else's wars until we all get blown up.

July 2015

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-next-superpower-united-states-europe-possible-13430

Last edited by granny; 12th Jan 2016 1:21am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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granny #997894 12th Jan 2016 9:02am
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For the last 15 months we as a country have exported more outside of the EU than inside .I think they need us more than we need them

granny #997915 12th Jan 2016 10:48am
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Agree with a lot of what you say granny, but as to the trade union part I think you've got it wrong, Europe has a strong socialist element, unlike here they are not fettered by dracion anti TU laws, look at the strikes in Calais,no mounted police, no anti union bobbies punching and kicking the protesters, look at the legislation to support workers that has come from the EU, research the pensions and retirement ages throughout the EU, we are the poor relatives taxed to the hilt, the right wing of this government want us out, so they can revert to what they see as this green and pleasant land (for some)for others it will be back to the gutter where these egotistical pr**ks believe we belong, bred to fight their wars and wipe their ar**s. seeyu

casper #997932 12th Jan 2016 12:08pm
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You look at the situation as it is now. Think ahead about 10/15 years and how things will change. Europe will not be dictated to by the meagre Trade Unions that manage to survive in this country.

I don't understand which side of the fence you are on. You criticize Cameron for possibly waving a piece of paper saying he's got it cut and dried for the YES vote and you criticize the right wing of the Government for proposing the NO vote.

Where does Corbyn stand on this and are you saying that the ETUC has not done the job is was meant to do?

The European Trade Union Confederation (ETUC) is a trade union organization which was established in 1973 to represent workers and their national affiliates at the European level.

The French don't need horses the police have guns and the strikers just set fire to everything and cause misery to their cousins across the channel, who they don't give a fook about. (That's us)

Unemployment rate in France 2015 over 10% UK, 5.4% . I assume you know that poverty and social exclusion in France is ongoing in the rural areas. Not widely known, (kept quiet) .

The present employment rules in this country which were set up in 2006 (I think) still apply. Have a look at the French Labour Laws and you will see a difference. Why did Labour enforce our current legislation and the Trade Unions didn't bat an eyelid ? e.g. having to work more than 6 hours to be entitled to a break during the course of the day. So a 6 hrs shift meant you didn't get a break at all. Same applies to 4.5 hrs in France, which seems fair. Why didn't we have that criteria incorporated, when we have such wonderful TU's for the workers ? Plus, when we have so many foreign owned companies now, whose rules will they follow ? They will be taken out of the hands of UK TU's because it will be an overall directive for all EU member state countries, due to the multinational companies providing employment in many different parts of the Europe and the World.

Anything beginning with HM will disappear. Europe won't entertain 'Her Majesties' anything, so Civil Servants , Inland Revenue will all be transferred, just like Wirral is going over to Liverpool, and where are the Unions ? Are they protecting Wirral jobs that are likely to come under the hammer? No, not a word,.... until it's too late. Then they'll blame the Government. There's more business for them on the Liverpool side !

Just my thoughts on how things will progress.

Going to do some housework now. Have a nice day grin


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
granny #998397 17th Jan 2016 12:39pm
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German finance minister proposes EU-wide petrol tax to pay for refugee crisis



As the German's encouraged them all, why don't they pay ? They didn't do their sums properly, did they ?
Not talking about the Syrian's , I believe they are mostly decent origin. It's all the other's who have jumped on the bandwagon and whose own countries are now refusing to have them returned.

Last edited by granny; 17th Jan 2016 12:42pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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granny #998438 17th Jan 2016 9:58pm
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Id pay a tax if it meant Germany look after them all.

fish5133 #998444 17th Jan 2016 10:50pm
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Originally Posted by fish5133
Id pay a tax if it meant Germany look after them all.
Spot on there,what about Sweden,and other surrounding countries?

snowhite #998518 18th Jan 2016 5:08pm
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Yer, and Poland are beginning to get up my nose.

They won't accept migrants/refugees unless certain security guarantees are put in place. That's ok I suppose, but in a country the size of Germany and with only 38 million population , where as a few million of them live elsewhere in Europe, neither do they want UK to leave Europe. Probably because we house and employ or give benefits to approx. 1 million of their Polish people.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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granny #998587 19th Jan 2016 11:40am
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Originally Posted by granny
You look at the situation as it is now. Think ahead about 10/15 years and how things will change. Europe will not be dictated to by the meagre Trade Unions that manage to survive in this country.

I don't understand which side of the fence you are on. You criticize Cameron for possibly waving a piece of paper saying he's got it cut and dried for the YES vote and you criticize the right wing of the Government for proposing the NO vote.

Where does Corbyn stand on this and are you saying that the ETUC has not done the job is was meant to do?

The European Trade Union Confederation (ETUC) is a trade union organization which was established in 1973 to represent workers and their national affiliates at the European level.

The French don't need horses the police have guns and the strikers just set fire to everything and cause misery to their cousins across the channel, who they don't give a fook about. (That's us)

Unemployment rate in France 2015 over 10% UK, 5.4% . I assume you know that poverty and social exclusion in France is ongoing in the rural areas. Not widely known, (kept quiet) .

The present employment rules in this country which were set up in 2006 (I think) still apply. Have a look at the French Labour Laws and you will see a difference. Why did Labour enforce our current legislation and the Trade Unions didn't bat an eyelid ? e.g. having to work more than 6 hours to be entitled to a break during the course of the day. So a 6 hrs shift meant you didn't get a break at all. Same applies to 4.5 hrs in France, which seems fair. Why didn't we have that criteria incorporated, when we have such wonderful TU's for the workers ? Plus, when we have so many foreign owned companies now, whose rules will they follow ? They will be taken out of the hands of UK TU's because it will be an overall directive for all EU member state countries, due to the multinational companies providing employment in many different parts of the Europe and the World.

Anything beginning with HM will disappear. Europe won't entertain 'Her Majesties' anything, so Civil Servants , Inland Revenue will all be transferred, just like Wirral is going over to Liverpool, and where are the Unions ? Are they protecting Wirral jobs that are likely to come under the hammer? No, not a word,.... until it's too late. Then they'll blame the Government. There's more business for them on the Liverpool side !

Just my thoughts on how things will progress.

Going to do some housework now. Have a nice day grin


Good morning granny, just a few points on your comments re the Working Time regulations 1998, these regulations applied to all EEC members and are part of a basis for minimum requirements across the community, they came with a number of other regulations and directives around the same time 1998/99, contained within the Working Time Regulations there are exceptions one of which relates to collective and workforce agreements (these are the agreements made by the much maligned Trade Unions to give their members better terms and conditions)we had for example two 15 min breaks and threequarters of an hour dinner per 8 hours, most industries I knew about had around the same time off, so no they didnt restrict workers to just 20mins after six hours, but what they did do is protect young workers and others that didnt belong to Trade Unions from being exploited by greedy and unscruplous employers, speaking of greedy and unscruplous, the Tories would like to see most of these regulations(red tape) gone which would enable them to line their pockets and those of their financial backers even more, as to Europe we must look at the pluses as against the minus and vote accordingly.

casper #998610 19th Jan 2016 6:38pm
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Evening Casper

Employments Rights act 1996

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Rights_Act_1996

Working Time Regulations 1998

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/free-legal-articles/working-time-regulations.html

Yes, you are correct. We did have 15 mins break in morning and 15mins in the afternoon, plus 1 hour for lunch.

You see the benefits from your viewpoint and is not the same as mine is.

Who took your kids to school before they went to work ? Who did your shopping in their lunch hour, or nipped home to let the dog out, who cooked your dinner and had a chair positioned for you to fall into afterwards ???? Who did you share your Sunday lunch with, how many weekends did you have at home to enjoy or relax ?

Get my point ? You went to work and had it all laid on. Women were forgotten, and the same still applies.It is only men who bat away on here protecting their Trade Union's because they think they are the only ones who ever did a days work.
Complete tripe ! You do not speak for the masses of women who had to take less hours and therefore less pay. Structured over a 7 day week, no two working days the same, or even consecutive , working shifts between 8am and 11pm , no official break, different eating habits on a daily basis according to working hours. Total confusion in the home as to what hours mum works on a particular day. No weekends completely off to spend time with the family. Work Bank Holidays, the list goes on because juggling was/is the name of the game. Then the authorities wonder why kids are out on the street without anyone supervising them. In many cases the authorities who are the employers of the women who should be at home with their kids. The kids are free to do what they want because the mums have to work weekends.

UK contribution to Europe was Tourism and Service industries. Hence the amount of women employed in that environment. Not on the shop floor at Vauxhalls with great big bonuses. Where the same people have an awful lot to say about other industries getting bonuses.

Whilst the men who have their Mon to Friday hard graft, keep their traditional cooked breakfast whilst they read the Red Post and realise how f..ing good life is and how damn good the T.U's have been to THEM. Oh yes, and then the kids who get into a bit of trouble are called 'scumbags' by the likes of those who seem to think they are better !!!!! The fact is, their mum's are probably trying to keep a job to make their lives better, but work life balance can be oh so difficult and virtually impossible, if no one wants to budge an inch, help, swap or even understand !


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
granny #998647 20th Jan 2016 8:48am
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Whoa whoa granny were has all this come from! my response was purely to point out that the Working Time Regulations did not impose any strict regime as regards breaks, it was not a criticism nor a boast just fact,I have seen a lot of comments in various posts on here condemning trade unions mostly from people that feel they were let down by their respective union, thats par for the course its human nature if they dont get what they want or expect,unions are only as good as the membership and support within them.

I take your point on a womans role in society and in the home and thankfully things are begining to change for the better,nearly gone are the old days of men in the pub and women in the kitchen and men are taking on a greater role in the home and sharing more responsibility with the kids, as to their role in the workplace you only need to look back in history the Brynt and May matchgirls, the Fords Dagenham women but to name a few, something well achieved and to be proud of.

casper #998662 20th Jan 2016 1:31pm
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Working Time Regulations ..and it still applies.

Basic Rights

The basic rights under the Working Time Regulations are as follows:


•Limit of an average of 48 hours per week which a worker may be required to work, however they can opt-out of this limit and work more if they want to.
•Limit of an average 8 hours work every 24 hours for night workers.
•Free health assessments for night workers.
•11 hours rest in every 24 hours.
•A minimum of one day off per week.
•Rest break during working hours if the working day is longer than 6 hours.
•A minimum of 28 days paid leave per year, :

Casper.. I was not talking about the little match girls nor Fords women. I was talking about the women who work in service industries. Bars, and restaurants, leisure centres and swimming pools, hotels and bowling alleys ,airports and railway stations, receptionists and supermarkets. Gone are the structured working days for them and probably a fair few without husbands at home to help care for the kids. You are coming from an old fashioned perspective Casper. Things changed a lot between 2000 and 2010 , I worked through it and had to accommodate the changes, but the Unions never came near or supported even when asked by their own Union members. 'Fobbed Off' would be a good expression . The Reps were pathetic and didn't have a clue about anything. But that's what happens when Union Reps want to raise their profile and have a week away playing golf in Portugal with their classmates ! It could come under 'Special concessions' !

11 hours rest in 24hrs means e.g.that a person can finish work at 9pm one night and have to be back in again by 8am the next morning. That is how it is worked now, and if another staff member is sick, then be prepared to do a double shift. Only classed as additional hours so not overtime until the hours exceed the average working week. Which doesn't happen ! No pension paid on additional hours only contractual. No extra holidays only contractual.

Yes, you are right Casper, I was pretty hissed off yesterday, and not much better today. On such occasions nobody knows what will come forth, not even myself. But... every word is sincere on behalf of those who serve meals in restaurants on Christmas Day for example, to those who climbed the ladder of sweet success and left the 'plebs' behind. Nothing changes, we might think our lives have improved subject to TU's influences but it's a few more rungs up the ladder that have been accessed, to put people on a different level enabling them to take advantage of the employees of the service industries who get treated like garbage on minimum wage.

Still love you smile ...... and if you think staying with the EU will be beneficial, think again. All rules change accordingly.
Have a look at this....it could be an interesting book to read.

http://www.reject-the-eu.co.uk/

For almost three-quarters of a century, the world has been told that WWII was caused by a psychopath, Adolf Hitler, and his entourage of racist hooligans, the Nazis. The facts are, however, that WWII was a conquest war conducted on behalf of the Chemical, Oil and Drug Cartel with the goal of controlling the multi-trillion dollar global markets in the newly-emerging fields of patented chemical products.

Official documents from the U.S. Congress and the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals unequivocally show that WWII was not only prepared, but also logistically and technically facilitated by the largest and most notorious oil and drug cartel at that time, namely, the German IG Farben cartel, composed of Bayer, BASF, Hoechst and other chemical companies. The summary of the indictment from Nuremberg proves that without IG Farben, WWII could not have taken place.

You will also learn in this book that WWI, the second largest tragedy of the twentieth century, was actually the first attempt at world conquest by these corporate interests. Moreover, after both these military attempts to subjugate Europe and the world had failed, the Oil and Drug Cartel invested in a third attempt: the economic and political conquest of Europe by means of the ‘Brussels EU’.

Last edited by granny; 20th Jan 2016 1:35pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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