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#984735 - 23rd Sep 2015 8:46am vw cheats on diesel tests
Martin1943 Offline
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Registered: 26th Jan 2011
Posts: 262
Loc: Moreton
Well whoop-i-do, official fuel performance tests do not match those in the real world. I think we always knew that. Now it has been discovered that VWs diesel tests in the US were as much as four times better than the proper result we must ask a relevant question perhaps. Are VW engines much worse than all the others, or have a large number of other engines been cheating, all over the world? It appears that VW engine management systems are employed in a large proportion of other manufacturers. Are these as a group better in performance also? Is the software in their cars also cheating, all over the world perhaps?

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#984742 - 23rd Sep 2015 9:31am Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Mark Online   Reading


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Registered: 9th Nov 2003
Posts: 21069
Loc: Wirral
This could just be the start of it they say on the News.

They were saying on the News the American test measures different chemicals via emissions test, and its stricter than our UK emissions test.

I can see others falling foul.
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#984783 - 23rd Sep 2015 1:01pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Martin1943 Offline
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Registered: 26th Jan 2011
Posts: 262
Loc: Moreton
It was discovered because a pressure group in the States was trying to convince European authorities that diesels could be as clean as petrol because VW tests in USA showed this. The question really is "how many of our cars are cheating?"
It's all a fraud, tests in UK are carried out by the manufacturers representative group, the results bear no relationship to actuality and yet it has suited all to continue that practice, except the end user.
In the 1950s most family cars did around 30-35 mpg. It's not much better now (although cars are faster and more powerful than then, average journey times are very similar). The question should by "why has no one taken action before?"

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#984789 - 23rd Sep 2015 1:55pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10365
Loc: Birkenhead
Still don't get this, all cars are designed to meet the emission test standards in the different countries - VW's clearly did!

It there is a problem then the tests themselves were lacking and I don't see how VW can be blamed for that.

How does the car detect it is being tested, I can think of lots of ways (air flow, motion, steering inactive, loading etc) but all lead to the test not being realistic. If you want to test for normal deriving then you stick the probe up the exhaust and go for a drive.

The one and only really sneaky cheat that I can think of is using the car's GPS to identify you are at a testing centre.

This is like being breathalysed and passing but then being prosecuted because you cheated by not having a drink - you passed the test but are still guilty???
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In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#984793 - 23rd Sep 2015 2:24pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Excoriator Online   content
Guardian

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 938
Loc: wirral
I think you have to disable the airbags for fear that someone bumping into it on test, or slamming a door whilst its on the test bed will trigger them.

I think there are other things that have to be disabled too.

M'learned friends will argue about it for years, but the real damage is to the reputation of VW and the damage to its sales.

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#984795 - 23rd Sep 2015 2:38pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10365
Loc: Birkenhead
I remember the airbag trick from some years ago, doing a bit of digging I found ...

Quote:
The EPA refers to what it calls a ‘switch’ that enabled the car’s ECM to know when it is being tested on a rolling road: “The ‘switch’ senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine’s operation and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes.


If the test doesn't bother doing a road test as well then I would say the test is lacking.

VW aren't going to be the only one that are doing similar, I bet VW are busy testing other marques of cars at this moment in time.
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In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#984807 - 23rd Sep 2015 3:38pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
dustymclean Offline

Old Hand

Registered: 18th Sep 2013
Posts: 347
Loc: birkenhead
The fiddle was written into the cars software it knows when the hardware is connected for any test or investigation. It would have to be written in with the sole intention to deceive, by programmers with instructions to do so.

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#984816 - 23rd Sep 2015 6:13pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Martin1943 Offline
Addict

Registered: 26th Jan 2011
Posts: 262
Loc: Moreton
The car software test wheel rotation. When it detect two wheels not turning ant-skid software kicks in, It is that signal which is used to initiate the anti-pollution cheat.
Don't know how it copes with four wheel drive though!
Got this from the Times

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#984840 - 23rd Sep 2015 9:01pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
buddy Online   content
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Registered: 18th Sep 2008
Posts: 5021
Loc: South Wirral

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#984855 - 23rd Sep 2015 9:56pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Vanmanone Offline

Forum Guardian

Registered: 5th May 2010
Posts: 3436
Loc: The Rectory Eastham
All said an done,we have come a long way with diesels with clever injectors that are capable of injecting upto 6 times per cycle burning all the fuel in a controlled burn instead of dumping the lot in one go making loads of noise an dumping unburnt fuel out the exhaust,remember the cans of easy start we use to go through snob

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#984857 - 23rd Sep 2015 10:08pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
fish5133 Online   content
Forum Master

Registered: 22nd Mar 2010
Posts: 3058
Loc: Heswallish
'So what are the garages doing during mot testing.are they working to a different standard . i had a car fail mot on emissions..had to squirt some stuff up the carb to get it to pass.

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#984862 - 23rd Sep 2015 10:48pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10365
Loc: Birkenhead
In America most States have an Annual Safety and Emissions Test.

Our MOT doesn't test the emissions to the same levels as the Type Approval that manufacturers have to adhere to. The MOT is primarily a safety test but basic environmental tests are also performed. In petrol cars the emissions are only tested at idle for the MOT.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#984894 - 24th Sep 2015 1:11pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Excoriator Online   content
Guardian

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 938
Loc: wirral
I had a DPF filter that kept on being choked up. The garage couldn't find the cause and mentioned teh possibility of simply removing the DPF. I refused to do this and the fault was found to be a split hose and cured. It was also explained to me that the car would still pass it's MOT emission test, even without the DPF. Suspicious or not?

Since then, I have noticed a number of cars like mine emitting a cloud of smoke on accelerating. I assume this is because they have no DPF, having had it removed.

I think spot testing should be used to check emissions, with heavy fines for this practice.

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#984935 - 24th Sep 2015 5:03pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
This is a different test than the economy test right?
Seems like people are mixing the 2 up.
A bigger concern for people is the blatantly false mpg figures. The US have a different system for rating this and seem much more closely matched to real world miles achieved.

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#984998 - 25th Sep 2015 3:03pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
StuyMac Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 24th Nov 2003
Posts: 12002
Loc: Wirralshire
In the UK, the emissions test for a diesel car is a plain smoke test. A probe is inserted up the exhaust, and the engine is revved - the smoke level in the gasses are then measured.

The diesel smoke test is the same for every diesel car, no matter if its 30 years old or 3 years old - the same smoke limit applies.

Newer cars with DPF's fitted produce virtually zero smoke, but older cars without produce more, there is no cut off year where the smoke level should be lower.

In a petrol car, you have a CAT test. Everything post 1993 (IIRC) needs to pass a cat test, which is much tigher than that on a car without a CAT fitted (pre 1993). On a diesel there is no cut off year, so all diesels are tested to the same limits.

Emission wise, a poorly running new car which should produce no smoke, can pass a the test producing as much smoke as a dirtier 30 year old car. Although modern diesels have become cleaner, the MOT test (unlike that for petrol cars) hasnt evolved.
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