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#949602 - 5th Jun 2015 8:18am Pigginelle !
venice Offline

Forum Master

Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2975
Loc: Wirral
SAY NO TO IMPRISONED PIGS.
SIGN TO HELP STOP UK LARGEST PIG FARM.

"Confining such huge numbers of animals in this way deprives them of the ability to perform many of their natural behaviours, which can cause terrible suffering, especially in animals as intelligent as pigs." - Polly F., Care2 petition author


Say NO today! http://www.care2.com/go/z/PigFactory
Petition: Stop the biggest ever UK pig factory being built
Say NO to 30,000 pigs behind bars. Sign now!


Appeared on my FB page today, I was happy to sign .

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#949603 - 5th Jun 2015 8:41am Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14987
Loc: Wirral
Piggies get my vote every time.

One very good reason why I no longer eat pork.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#949640 - 5th Jun 2015 10:42am Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
snowhite Offline

Wiki Guide

Registered: 31st Jan 2014
Posts: 6406
Loc: Wirral
Got my vote xx

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#949664 - 5th Jun 2015 1:20pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10790
Loc: Birkenhead
Actually, the whole purpose of this new farm is to IMPROVE the welfare of the pigs. The existing facility is old and outdated, after building the new farm they are going to reduce the number of pigs at the existing facility by 85% and upgrade the facility using it for sow's housing.

The project is being driven by Sainsbury's who have upped their standards for welfare. Hall's supply Dunbia who supply Sainsbury's. Dunbia is the only supplier in Northern Ireland who has achieved ‘Freedom Food’ Farm Assurance accreditation for pork.

Sainsbury's pay over the going rate to their suppliers to enable them to have improved welfare for pigs.

SUMMARY: This new facility is to improve the welfare of pigs and yet its being shot down?
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#949671 - 5th Jun 2015 2:29pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
BandyCoot Offline

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Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5368
Loc: Birkenhead
Leave 'em alone, they're delicious.
_________________________
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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#949684 - 5th Jun 2015 5:30pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: BandyCoot]
chriskay Offline
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Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
Thanks for giving us the facts, DD.
_________________________
Carpe diem.

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#949749 - 5th Jun 2015 9:59pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: chriskay]
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2975
Loc: Wirral
Hi DD . Sadly Im away and without internet access from early tomorrow for a week, so wouldnt read it straight away but Im interested in exactly what improvements you have read are being made for pig welfare .(my guess is most of the claimed upgrading etc is going to be in efficiency , environmental concerns and maximizing production of meat ) .

I wouldnt be too impressed by factory farms claiming to have reached the 'ultimate' red tractor farm assured standards etc . 'A marketing tool' according to the Independant today http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend...ns-2034111.html - they are not impressed at all ,by the look of it.

Sadly the meat industry is skilled at putting out soothing words to allay the fears of the public , who want to believe them because few people really like the idea of animals being farmed by factory methods.

These improvements are often non events in real terms (in my opinion) for instance like when they bragged about improving welfare for caged hens ages ago ,by increasing their living space . The actual increase was minute, and almost insignificant in terms of whether the hens could achieve any of their normal behaviour - but it aided the conscience a bit if you ate chicken.

I cannot see that 30,000 pigs , all hugely intelligent can live in factory type conditions which can give them all scope to have any sort of life which allows them normal behaviours .

I do understand where you're coming from -improved welfare can be made to sound attractive, but I think allowing bigger and bigger factory farms ,with higher and higher tech, is not conducive to moving to a situation which will sustainably improve animal welfare , protect rural jobs , protect the environment etc . I would like to see less meat eating , so animals could then be given the space and resource to ensure a MUCH more natural life before slaughter.Healthier for people too .

Pigs are more intelligent than dogs. Could you imagine and condone a factory situation where 30,000 dogs were all sectioned off, in relatively tiny space, robotically fed and watered, activity severely restricted to keep fat on them etc. Could you really be happy knowing they were imprisoned there, day after day after day with little to do? ( and I can consider the comparison in so much as if I did want to eat meat, consciencewise ,I would eat dog as easily as pig.

Reading back, I don't think I've managed to express very well what Im getting at , but best I can do for now as dashing off.




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#949760 - 5th Jun 2015 10:12pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
venice Offline

Forum Master

Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2975
Loc: Wirral
PS -- In my haste I see Ive mentioned Red tractor , not Freedom Foods , but a similar problem exists with that . Some of the things still allowed within that 'label' , are still not high welfare. The RSPCA and Compassion in World Farming , do not approve of factory farming, but credit Freedom Foods as a step in the right direction .It is a very low minimum standard that the RSPCA achieved , to bring FF's into being.

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#949770 - 6th Jun 2015 12:15am Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10790
Loc: Birkenhead
I don't see the sense of attacking the producers that aren't the worst, you risk driving them out of business and handing their trade over to the worse companies which is 100% opposite to the objective.

Even worse is the risk that the pork will be procured from outside the country which gives even less control over the welfare of the animals.

All of Sainsbury's pork is British, at least they have taken steps, set standards above legal minimum and have future targets, in a competitive industry there is very little they can do without the support of the majority of their customers (which will never happen).

The legal minimum standard is what needs addressing, that is what governments are there for - to sort out the mess that competitive businesses make.

"Red Tractor" is a joke in comparison to "Freedom Food", it is merely a marketing and risk management tool, it sets no standards for animal welfare whatsoever.

What progress Sainsbury's have made is being thrown in their face - you could hardly blame them if they turned round and said "we give up, minimum legal standard for us from now on".

Sainsbury's sell over half of the "freedom Food" pork sold in this country, hopefully they plan to up their game and meet the new "RSPCA Assured" standards, but they need reward for their efforts not campaigns running against them.

BTW I'm not a fan of Sainsbury's I do not shop there nor have any association with them. It just annoys me that campaigns like this are poorly thought out and are counter-productive to animal welfare.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#949800 - 6th Jun 2015 9:21am Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14987
Loc: Wirral
If we all want to avoid bowel cancer, don't eat pork, pork by products, or red meat. Simple, down to education.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#949850 - 6th Jun 2015 1:41pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
BandyCoot Offline

Forum Veteran

Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5368
Loc: Birkenhead
You've got to die of something, and you will. Best to enjoy what you do. Don't worry about what others do or the scaremongers put about, there's enough doom as it is. I used to be a pig farmer myself, well an assistant. Used the swill from the big messes to feed them, along with supplementary stuff, they all had a good life before going off to market and the boar was a top friendly animal. The sows were protective of their little 'uns and it was interesting to watch them all interacting. All in all it was a good ten months. They're still delicious, whether they're Wessex Saddleback, Large White, Landrace, Gloucester Spot, Tamworth et al get it down yer.
oldman
_________________________
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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#949898 - 6th Jun 2015 7:12pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14987
Loc: Wirral
Blimey Bandy......what a rebel. Alcohol AND pork ! No hope for you.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#951104 - 14th Jun 2015 8:56am Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: diggingdeeper]
venice Offline

Forum Master

Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2975
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper
I don't see the sense of attacking the producers that aren't the worst, you risk driving them out of business and handing their trade over to the worse companies which is 100% opposite to the objective.

Even worse is the risk that the pork will be procured from outside the country which gives even less control over the welfare of the animals.

All of Sainsbury's pork is British, at least they have taken steps, set standards above legal minimum and have future targets, in a competitive industry there is very little they can do without the support of the majority of their customers (which will never happen).

The legal minimum standard is what needs addressing, that is what governments are there for - to sort out the mess that competitive businesses make.

"Red Tractor" is a joke in comparison to "Freedom Food", it is merely a marketing and risk management tool, it sets no standards for animal welfare whatsoever.

What progress Sainsbury's have made is being thrown in their face - you could hardly blame them if they turned round and said "we give up, minimum legal standard for us from now on".

Sainsbury's sell over half of the "freedom Food" pork sold in this country, hopefully they plan to up their game and meet the new "RSPCA Assured" standards, but they need reward for their efforts not campaigns running against them.

BTW I'm not a fan of Sainsbury's I do not shop there nor have any association with them. It just annoys me that campaigns like this are poorly thought out and are counter-productive to animal welfare.


Hi DD thanks for the reply.
I have to say , I do see clearly where you're coming from--all your points are very valid and logical and I admit that that on occasions I do struggle and sway towards that way of seeing things . However , for me , the whole business of the way we expect animals to live their one life so unaturally and stressfully , before slaughter, is so disgusting to me , that the only way I can begin to explain my stance, is to liken it to something akin to the way for instance Anti -abortionists feel - that abortion is either acceptable or its not , and welcoming a new 'improved' law of only allowing the Baby to be killed at say 16 weeks instead of 20, would probably give them little hope, as that amendment to an inbetween postition, may in fact harm/delay, the hope of a complete revision to take the massive moral step to ban it.

ps (I am not commenting on the rights and wrongs of abortion here , I am half in half over it , and the weeks Ive quoted , are made up purely for my example. )

As for the pigs, I will still wait to see what emerges about the actual improvements for their day to day living experience.

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#951132 - 14th Jun 2015 12:49pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: granny]
BandyCoot Offline

Forum Veteran

Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5368
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: granny
Blimey Bandy......what a rebel. Alcohol AND pork ! No hope for you.

Well beyond redemption and probably would refuse it if offered. Roll on!
yipee
_________________________
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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#951355 - 15th Jun 2015 2:35pm Re: Pigginelle ! [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10790
Loc: Birkenhead
Yes Venice, I'm generally a black or white person (yes or no) but unfortunately the powers that be aren't, so to make any progress you have to play them at their own game and make what steps you can - also everything is governed by money and a step-change in price just isn't going to happen.

I haven't found the freedom food standards other than it must be greater than legal minimum otherwise more farms would have succeeded in achieving it.

On abortion, there are two (or more) lives directly involved and the quality of life of both should be considered which is of course, to a degree, the same as the animal welfare issue as finance has a major impact on quality of life.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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