Why vote to get one crock of crap out just to put another crock of crap in ? Whoever is in will do what they want to do, not what the people that matter want them to do. Rant over. and yes I do know you will say if I don't vote I shouldn't moan.
first time i've ever voted but i just want to see cameron gone!!quiet agree they are all full of crap but i dont want to see another term of that smug w****r!
Labour for the General Election - got to do my best to keep the tories out of power.
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition for the Local Election - return some rights back to the non-rich majority of the population, preserve public services etc.
If I had a choice, I would vote for the Respect Party.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Voted for labour as they took time to knock on my door and ask me if I'll vote for them I was going to anyhow, no-one else came near, and would never vote for the other tosspot SAVE THE NHS
Labour in the General. keep the Kippers at bay as they are the nearest (albeit by a long shot) threat, especially if people voted Green as a protest vote.
Torn between Green/ TUSC in the local. Went with Green in the end as I believe they have a chance.
I always vote since women went through a great struggle for us to get it.I am in the ward with the lowest turnout last year,maybe more people will be bothered at this one.
Labour for both. Was considering the Greens or TUSC, but we have to get the Tories out. Come on Wirral West! Get that Wicked Witch McVey out. Think she's toast as there are lots of Labour posters around West Kirby, Greasby, Upton and Irby. Looks like the Woodchurch is mobilising for Labour too.
Labour for both. Was considering the Greens or TUSC, but we have to get the Tories out. Come on Wirral West! Get that Wicked Witch McVey out. Think she's toast as there are lots of Labour posters around West Kirby, Greasby, Upton and Irby. Looks like the Woodchurch is mobilising for Labour too.
I saw one McVile poster on the Woodchurch estate and that was ripped up and lying on somebodys window ledge in their porch!!
UKIP.. The labour canvasser who I spoke to tried to make out his party did not spread disinformation like certain parties. and alluded to the fact people who vote for UKIP are "uninformed". Esther didn't get my vote because she spends too much time doing photo ops for Wirral Globe. Didn't like the 2 voting papers. Didn't give much thought to the local councillor vote so just voted same on both papers.
People still queuing near Newcastle-- Not sure what the rules are-- do they have to close the poll bang on 10pm or can the presiding officer keep them open till all voted.
Postal votes--are these just added to the ballot boxes for counting at the same time?
I think I am slightly envious of anyone who really knows why they vote for a particular party.
Nope. I didn't vote. In times past, the vote of each person was considered their own business. These days at the side of each slip with the vote on it is a number which links to YOUR name. Thus each vote is identifiable. In these days of electronic media its not difficult to assume each persons vote is track able. When I get a FREE, FAIR and untrack able democratic vote I will turn up.
[youtube]e1l1XGiXgo0[/youtube] a party political broadcast by the conversative party back in the day still true today remember you can't spell conversative without CON
Wow Nicola Sturgen one to watch, one strong lady that Maggie in a kilt! Pity she wasn't for us I think be the one to break up the union and I think that will be a sad day..
Yup little Nicola Kranky is a canny woman, she got what she wanted a Tory government, but methinks it could backfire, she wanted a minority tory government where she could do deals for the benefit of Scotland by not voting with Labour, anyhow it is crystal clear that we have a divided nation as verified by voting patterns, North and South, we will soon hear the deniers bleating I never voted Tory when the axe falls, those that have voted for them have given them carte blanche to carry on with their crusade against the NHS the sick and disabled and the unemployed, tighten your belts folks its going to be a bumpy ride.
With hindsight I think Labour had lost touch with the working man. I think they'd have done a lot better if they'd had taken some of UKIP'S policies added to their own (eg EU vote,immigration, on foreign aid and some others. Not sure if Labour appeared as more to the right to the public as compared to the SNP which wiped Labour out in Scotland (can't believe all the hype put out that their main aim was about independence (not all her supporters would have been) but was about being against austerity ) Labour need a leader like Nicola Sturgeon
Would like to see the counts overall of how many votes each party got
Many big names in politics got their P45's this morning, but for, me Ed BALLS is the greatest result. I wonder, did his little Yvette manage to hold on to her seat ?
Ed Milliband was not the right person from the start and obviously made no impact .
Nicola seems to have got her wish when hoping that British politics will never be the same again, but not so sure she meant it quite like this.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I did not vote and I never will while this unfair voting system is in place. If anyone needs an example: UKIP and the Greens totalled 5 million vote and got a coulple of seats and the SNP get 1.5 million votes and get 50+. I wonder how many seats the Tories scraped in with. Proportional representation is a much fairer system
Congratulations Britain! 99% of us are completely f**ked, as is the NHS, the education system and my entire generation. You've voted for food banks instead of freedom, for the rich instead of the poor and worst of all for profit over people. You've successfully been conned into thinking that things are better than they were 5 years ago. Despite the soaring number of homeless people, children being raised in poverty, families relying on food banks and the empty shell of what was once an incredible national health service run for the benefit of the public not private sector profit. You have voted for the party that tricked this nation into bailing the banks out of a crisis that the bankers themselves caused! You have voted for a party that allowed the wealthiest 1000 people in this country to double their wealth in just 5 years. In the meantime working class people's pay packages have been hit their hardest for 40 years. You voted for the party that allows the richest 1% to pay on average a real terms tax on their wealth of only 35% percent while the bottom 50% pay an average real terms tax of 45%. You've voted for the party whose MPs almost all voted "NO" on a law that should have been passed to allow investigations into alleged historic paedophilia on a mass scale to be carried out more thoroughly and honestly. Do you know why? Because some of the alleged persecutors were ex Tory MPs and Conservative party funders! You've voted for the party who have sided with Rupert Murdoch to create and unfair and at times racist smear campaign against Ed Miliband and his party. You've voted for more privatisation, austerity and social warfare. You've voted for a party whose main purpose is to generate wealth for their business owning, bank running, rich, shareholder friends. At the expense of everybody else.
So I say once again Britain, well done. A real standing f**king ovation for you.
With saying all this,GE2015 Tory voters on Wirral- your votes accounted for nothing.
Excellent rant Rude, it beats me why working folk are taken in by the duplicitous Tory lies, having said that, when I win the Euromillions tonight I'll vote Tory next time because I know they will look after me and keep you little people in your place. I'll send you a card from Barbados. Happy days.
I dont know about anyone else but I find typical labour voters, nasty, vindictive, childish, spiteful and vitrolic. Not a single one ever has anything positive to say.
Just hate fuelled rants like Rudeboxs' above.
Just because someone voted differently from you doesn't make them evil or hateful. Chill your beans.
Hubby came in and said he was talking to lady who said she voted labour , then said well I was going to but was in the pub and the queue was too long ! Then started moaning about worrying about social care for her parents . Question how come Wirral labour run council has let day centres for the elderly close ? While upping the pay for directors of council
I dont know about anyone else but I find typical labour voters, nasty, vindictive, childish, spiteful and vitrolic. Not a single one ever has anything positive to say.
Bloody Hell! I've seen some sweeping statements but......
I dont know about anyone else but I find typical labour voters, nasty, vindictive, childish, spiteful and vitrolic. Not a single one ever has anything positive to say.
Just hate fuelled rants like Rudeboxs' above.
Just because someone voted differently from you doesn't make them evil or hateful. Chill your beans.
Gosh you're a cheeky little troll aren't you,naughty boy.
I dont know about anyone else but I find typical labour voters, nasty, vindictive, childish, spiteful and vitrolic. Not a single one ever has anything positive to say.
Just hate fuelled rants like Rudeboxs' above.
Just because someone voted differently from you doesn't make them evil or hateful. Chill your beans.
Sounds like a bit like you DeanoBirko, obviously you have an axe to grind with the trade unions, next time you enjoy some benefit at work have a think about were it came from, I think you have done an excellent job at being nasty, vindictive etc etc.
first time i've ever voted but i just want to see cameron gone!!quiet agree they are all full of crap but i dont want to see another term of that smug w****r!
Hi Casper , I worked with a person who was best mates with a high up Union person who she said when ever on Union buisness billed them for a lunch when he bought sandwiches from home. Isn't that fiddling expenses ??
I dont know about anyone else but I find typical labour voters, nasty, vindictive, childish, spiteful and vitrolic. Not a single one ever has anything positive to say.
Just hate fuelled rants like Rudeboxs' above.
Just because someone voted differently from you doesn't make them evil or hateful. Chill your beans.
Even so, I must confess- I would not piss on a Tory if it was on fire.Despicable ....So that is ONE statement
People fiddle things all the time, have a good long think have you ever taken anything? a pencil, paper clips, printing paper used a facility you weren't entitled to, committed a traffic offence not many of us (including myself) are squeaky clean, you cant condemn an organisation for the actions of a few bad apples, take a look at those that purport to represent us in parliament, they have an above average sprinkling of thieves liars and child molesters and they are referred to as honourable.
People fiddle things all the time, have a good long think have you ever taken anything? a pencil, paper clips, printing paper used a facility you weren't entitled to, committed a traffic offence not many of us (including myself) are squeaky clean, you cant condemn an organisation for the actions of a few bad apples, take a look at those that purport to represent us in parliament, they have an above average sprinkling of thieves liars and child molesters and they are referred to as honourable.
............................ claimed benefits you weren't entitled to?
If we had good MPs in Birkenhead we could have a Liverpool one style shopping area in Wirral with the best view of the Liverpool waterfront . A major selling point but no we have a dump called Birkenhead . Wake up Wirral and use your vote more productively next time if u care for you children's prospects .
yes granny Yvette Cooper did keep her seat and thankfully Esther McVey lost hers, some small justice. Best regards. Bennie
The trouble with 'Strictly Labour ' is that most supporters don't see further than the end of their very own nose. In case you have not been able to follow the goings on and mischief that seem to have been evolving behind the scenes of the Labour party during the last couple of years , Ed Balls has had his wife Yvette Cooper, standing in the wings for long enough, waiting for Miliband to drop out. Now, you see tonight that although her beloved has had the shock of his life, she is more than likely to stand for the leadership of the Labour Party. Taking that on board, do you really think she would be the one to lead Labour to a victorious election next time around ? So although you seem to think my point was rebuffed by Esther McVey's defeat being in my thoughts, you were wrong. It was purely to make as observation that the next leader of the Labour Party, might well (again) be the wrong person.
My thoughts on the horrible, tactics and personal attacks directed at Esther Mcvey; I doubt they made any difference to the outcome. It simply stamped those who behave in such an undemocratic manner, to be denouncing their own so called democratic beliefs.
The country voted and showed their choice. Can't change what the majority choose and each one must have had their own reason for the way they voted. End of !
Last edited by granny; 8th May 201510:21pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
ok I many be a bit slow, but can someone explain to me why all the news channels around about 10.30 last night said the Conservative will win? how can they tell before the votes are counted?
sorry but I don't understand this and it's put me off voting every again.
The exit poll, asking people how they voted when leaving the polling station, was more or less on the mark.We had a discussion about it in the pub because it had UKIP as two seats.Everything else was way off the mark.
In the last 5 years we borrowed around £600bn, in the previous 10 years we borrowed much less than that!
I just checked today's debt figure, it is over £1.5 trillion.
Spot on, and who is going to carry the can and pay for this outrageous waste of money, let me guess the disabled the sick the unemployed, the elderly, you aint seen nothing yet, just wondering how long it will be before we hear the denials, "I never voted Tory" I do hope very much I am wrong.
In the last 5 years we borrowed around £600bn, in the previous 10 years we borrowed much less than that!
I just checked today's debt figure, it is over £1.5 trillion.
DD, I think you probably know better than I do that debt figures are not quite so simple. The £1.5 trillion is a running total from previous Governments, including interest on the debt. The British Government actually had a surplus between 1998 and 2001 inherited by Blair's Government, but even if a government has a surplus it may still need to borrow for investments, which is what happened then. .
There is a difference between debt and deficit, to reduce the deficit there has to be borrowing and the borrowing is used for large investments. So here is another chart which gives a different perspective . Borrowing can also come in the form gilts and securities it's not paper money. This is obviously why all political parties where committed to getting the deficit down.
Quote : Borrowing
"Borrowing is... well, borrowing. Strictly speaking, borrowing and deficit (current budget) are not the same thing.
The two are linked, of course, as one covers the other, but the government doesn't just borrow money to pay back the deficit. It also borrows to invest.
The current budget covers everyday expenses - welfare payments, departmental costs etc. But the government also makes big investments, such as infrastructure projects, that are not included.
If the government is running a deficit, it may make investments on top of this, and will therefore need to borrow to cover both." unquote
DD, The projected figures of 2013 to 2015 maybe incorrect on this graph but according to your figures, the others don't match either.
Following taken from Wikipedia because it is a good source of information and easy to understand for us laymen.
The British Government debt is rising due to a gap between revenue and expenditure. Total government revenue in the fiscal year 2011/12 was projected to be £589 billion, whereas total expenditure was estimated at £710 billion. Therefore the total deficit, was £121 billion. This represented a rate of borrowing of a little over £2 billion per week.
Gilts[edit]
The British Government finances its debt by issuing Gilts, or Government securities. These securities are the simplest form of government bond and make up the largest share of British Government debt.[
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
yes granny Yvette Cooper did keep her seat and thankfully Esther McVey lost hers, some small justice. Best regards. Bennie
The trouble with 'Strictly Labour ' is that most supporters don't see further than the end of their very own nose. In case you have not been able to follow the goings on and mischief that seem to have been evolving behind the scenes of the Labour party during the last couple of years , Ed Balls has had his wife Yvette Cooper, standing in the wings for long enough, waiting for Miliband to drop out. Now, you see tonight that although her beloved has had the shock of his life, she is more than likely to stand for the leadership of the Labour Party. Taking that on board, do you really think she would be the one to lead Labour to a victorious election next time around ? So although you seem to think my point was rebuffed by Esther McVey's defeat being in my thoughts, you were wrong. It was purely to make as observation that the next leader of the Labour Party, might well (again) be the wrong person.
My thoughts on the horrible, tactics and personal attacks directed at Esther Mcvey; I doubt they made any difference to the outcome. It simply stamped those who behave in such an undemocratic manner, to be denouncing their own so called democratic beliefs.
The country voted and showed their choice. Can't change what the majority choose and each one must have had their own reason for the way they voted. End of !
Good point granny, but do you think that all the name calling and underhand tactics were only the remit of the labour party? politics is a dirty business, and the conservatives are masters of underhand dealings.
Good point granny, but do you think that all the name calling and underhand tactics were only the remit of the labour party? politics is a dirty business, and the conservatives are masters of underhand dealings.
Name calling became a boring option for all the political parties to get involved in. To the point where it would seem the majority of the pubic became totally oblivious to it. Appalling way for any to conduct themselves. Unfortunately, we must observe that far too many foreign outsiders have brought in to direct the politicians on how to achieve. Holding of hands, phrases, looking at the cameras, wives, cookery, shopping etc.etc. Miliband's chap was Obama's old hand at it. I don't like the way we seem to have to follow American ideas with political stunts, and the television leader's debates I feel did more harm than good to Miliband and Natalie Bennett. They are all acting to a script, which is why they are unable to answer any questions honestly or directly. They are themselves puppets under scrutiny and some are better at acting than others. Nick Clegg in my opinion never showed the man he could be, controlled and directed by Paddy Ashdown and Vince Cable. Yes, all political parties have underhand dealings, always have and always will, it wouldn't do for us to know everything, but some are far more aggressive than others and it depends on individuals to decide as to which is more or less so. Still, I cannot see Yvette Cooper in a position of leadership. We need people to represent on the same par as world leaders who are solid, strong, characters and who can step up to the world stage e.g. Belgium, France, China, Russia etc. and are not likely to be eaten alive by the likes of Angela Merkel, Putin, or Hu Flung Dung. In my opinion Mr Cameron is still not up to the mark in the bear pit .
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Funny how graffiti and dirt throwing never showed before in Hoylake until the Labour Party got involved - speaks volumes of the type of people they are and makes me delighted at the Tory victory - who wants that type of person ruling a country that our armed forces have given their lives for in two world wars so that we could be free - thuggery, damage and bullying have no place in a decent society, long may it lose.
@Granny The figures on your borrowing graph tie in nearly exactly with my debt figures.
Your graph is the one the tories like you to see, which most people will interpret as debt generally being paid off .... WRONG ... this shows the additional borrowing each year which shows the debt is increasing every year.
Never mind what fancy stats they use, we are going deeper into debt and they haven't paid off any debt. Where is all the money going???
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
@Granny The figures on your borrowing graph tie in nearly exactly with my debt figures.
Your graph is the one the tories like you to see, which most people will interpret as debt generally being paid off .... WRONG ... this shows the additional borrowing each year which shows the debt is increasing every year.
Never mind what fancy stats they use, we are going deeper into debt and they haven't paid off any debt. Where is all the money going???
I would assume a large part is going towards 'getting the deficit down', but don't really know ? Try FOI
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Wow Granny, do you really think that the tories aren't waiting to get shut of their leader ? Boris Johnson, Teresa May and George Osborne are desperate for his job. You can't seriously think that Boris was campaigning for the tories when you know he's only ever campaigned for Boris. But of course you are entitled to your opinion. Y.O.L.O. Bennie.
Santos, so you know definitely it was the Labour Party responsible for this? can I suggest you go to the police station and make you information known, I to abhor this kind of behaviour and if I had access to information about the perpetrators, I would have reported them, why haven't you?
I see we have another Benefit Street programme on TV starting Monday, horrendous !! Progs like that and the Jeremy Kyles and what they depict is what have drawn people to conservative. I know they show the very worst but let's face we all know people like that and I ,m sorry but working people are getting really fed up of it and want things to change. And I know it's not everybody but there is a great many just want to be given everything on a plate.....
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man somebody else's fish and he will vote Labour. Wirral Globe JohnON
I see we have another Benefit Street programme on TV starting Monday, horrendous !! Progs like that and the Jeremy Kyles and what they depict is what have drawn people to conservative. I know they show the very worst but let's face we all know people like that and I ,m sorry but working people are getting really fed up of it and want things to change. And I know it's not everybody but there is a great many just want to be given everything on a plate.....
The Tory media preparing us for the justifying of possible really deep welfare cuts, so quick at getting the ball rolling though
I see we have another Benefit Street programme on TV starting Monday, horrendous !! Progs like that and the Jeremy Kyles and what they depict is what have drawn people to conservative.
I usually resist commenting on political threads, but I don't follow your logic.
Not like you Dereck paranoia setting in or, what! It is obviously in the can and would be on whatever the result. Lets loosen up people, "who is coming the pub?.
I see we have another Benefit Street programme on TV starting Monday, horrendous !! Progs like that and the Jeremy Kyles and what they depict is what have drawn people to conservative. I know they show the very worst but let's face we all know people like that and I ,m sorry but working people are getting really fed up of it and want things to change. And I know it's not everybody but there is a great many just want to be given everything on a plate.....
Well stated Cools. And on another note , all these overseas poeple who are fleeing there own country by risking there own lifes by being crammed like a tin of sardines in a truck or boat are getting that impression that life is easy in the UK. So they all say LETS GO TO THE UK FREE THIS AND FREE THAT. I do hope the torries put there foot down on Immigration.
Yeah Snowy I quite agree. It's so sad to see these people and we know we would do the same if in their situation but it's got to stop , misery all round. Too soft this country!
I would assume a large part is going towards 'getting the deficit down', but don't really know ? Try FOI
You can't reduce a deficit with debt, its a deficit that creates debt that in turns creates a need to borrow. If there is a deficit then there must be an excess of spending, we all know the austerity measures have reduced spending considerably so that means they are spending even more than they are saving but that saved money (and more) is going to places outside of the austerity measures.
So the government is spending loads of money somewhere, many people know where the money isn't going (through austerity), it doesn't take a lot to work out where the money is going.
Just look at who is getting richer, its not the unemployed, its not children, its not students, its not the working class, its not the pensioners, its not the disabled and its not the middle class - yes, the money is going to the very people who need it least, the rich and hence the massive increasing separation as the rich are getting richer at a rate of ten times inflation and everybody else is getting poorer.
I am fortunate in that individually is doesn't (and won't) effect me much, however, I am deeply concerned what is going to happen to the (MY!) Country, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer (working or not), the house prices are rising and heading us towards what will be yet another financial meltdown, the job market is more unstable than its been for decades. The country has been fooled into creating a super-class and the majority of the media hide what is really going.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Yeah Snowy I quite agree. It's so sad to see these people and we know we would do the same if in their situation but it's got to stop , misery all round. Too soft this country!
On immigration, I don't think the buck stops with us. Didn't Mrs Merkel (her again) tell Mr Cameron last year, that if he wasn't in agreement with her and continued the argument about controlling immigration to UK , then she might not support Britain's membership of the EU. (something like that). So , that's a good enough reason to leave. Goodness knows what any of them will come up with as a resolving situation, but the migrants keep on coming and discussions seem to have quietened down again. I would have thought that a better way would be to allocate each migrant to a different EU country. 28 countries could have an even share, no matter how wealthy or poor they are. Not to be given the ability to travel around to other EU countries. That might save some coming across as they may not see Romania or Bulgaria as a particularly good prospect. At the same time the Eurozone should pump more money into each of those economies for help with creating jobs etc. Romania and Bulgaria are living off the rest of us anyway. Let them get on the road to recovery. These migrants know the rules, they know they are behaving illegally, and they know what their plans are before starting their journey. So, with that in mind they should not all be treated as stupid ,uneducated pawns in greater game, they are not. It's their own game that they wish to gamble on. Some very sad cases but not all, by a long shot, are running away from their own country and seeking refuge elsewhere due to war ? All I see is another generation facing modern day slavery for these people or living in camps for the next so many years. It always amazes me HOW the people from such poor countries, manage to raise enough money to pay the people trafficker. They earn much, much less than we do, i.e. if they earn anything at all, and it would take us a fare while to raise the funds. Are they being helped like the Vietnamese boat people were, all those years ago, which was basically ethnic cleansing by their own government.
Just an opinion which could be wrong and questionable. Even so, Mrs Merkel would seem to be pulling the noose at this moment in time.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
You can't reduce a deficit with debt, its a deficit that creates debt that in turns creates a need to borrow. If there is a deficit then there must be an excess of spending, we all know the austerity measures have reduced spending considerably so that means they are spending even more than they are saving but that saved money (and more) is going to places outside of the austerity measures.
[/quote]
So isn't the deficit the difference between the cost of something and the return from the same thing. E.g. a car cost £5000 to make, sells at a loss for £3000, = deficit of £2000. Therefore the borrowing is £2000 against the national debt ?
The 'money' is not cash in hand is it, just figures on paper, or gilts or gold bullion or securities, which are set against the debt.
We also have to take into consideration the cost to us of the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Libya and any intervention elsewhere. Battle doesn't come cheap, in weaponry or lives and that must have increased the national debt by a massive amount. There's no return on that is there ?
Last edited by granny; 9th May 20154:40pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Yeah Snowy I quite agree. It's so sad to see these people and we know we would do the same if in their situation but it's got to stop , misery all round. Too soft this country!
On immigration, I don't think the buck stops with us. Didn't Mrs Merkel (her again) tell Mr Cameron last year, that if he wasn't in agreement with her and continued the argument about controlling immigration to UK , then she might not support Britain's membership of the EU. (something like that). So , that's a good enough reason to leave. Goodness knows what any of them will come up with as a resolving situation, but the migrants keep on coming and discussions seem to have quietened down again. I would have thought that a better way would be to allocate each migrant to a different EU country. 28 countries could have an even share, no matter how wealthy or poor they are. Not to be given the ability to travel around to other EU countries. That might save some coming across as they may not see Romania or Bulgaria as a particularly good prospect. At the same time the Eurozone should pump more money into each of those economies for help with creating jobs etc. Romania and Bulgaria are living off the rest of us anyway. Let them get on the road to recovery. These migrants know the rules, they know they are behaving illegally, and they know what their plans are before starting their journey. So, with that in mind they should not all be treated as stupid ,uneducated pawns in greater game, they are not. It's their own game that they wish to gamble on. Some very sad cases but not all, by a long shot, are running away from their own country and seeking refuge elsewhere due to war ? All I see is another generation facing modern day slavery for these people or living in camps for the next so many years. It always amazes me HOW the people from such poor countries, manage to raise enough money to pay the people trafficker. They earn much, much less than we do, i.e. if they earn anything at all, and it would take us a fare while to raise the funds. Are they being helped like the Vietnamese boat people were, all those years ago, which was basically ethnic cleansing by their own government.
Just an opinion which could be wrong and questionable. Even so, Mrs Merkel would seem to be pulling the noose at this moment in time.
Am not just talking adults fleeing, Granny. Its children that are also being overcrowded in boats and trucks. Where they going to put all the children?There are short of foster carers as it is.Most of the childrens homes are closed. They have no control and any government will struggle to solve this problem.
Merkel and Sturgeon both powerful,strong and ruthless leaders and both women! Got to be admired as I said pity they wernt on our side . Yeah agree Granny something's got to give on the EU , not working for us the way it is ...
The children are not travelling on their own in most cases, which is a responsibility of the irresponsible parents who are bringing them, and as you say no Government can cope with it all, that is where the EU has to take the decisions. Unfortunately, from our point of view,it's very much a case of ,fine they are in Italy and Greece and Malta , they aren't here, so that's ok. It's a different story when they try to come into the UK illegally. Most people's attitude changes and we don't want them. I doubt many can argue with that. So what is the answer other than shipping them all back again?
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
So isn't the deficit the difference between the cost of something and the return from the same thing. E.g. a car cost £5000 to make, sells at a loss for £3000, = deficit of £2000. Therefore the borrowing is £2000 against the national debt ?
We also have to take into consideration the cost to us of the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Libya and any intervention elsewhere. Battle doesn't come cheap, in weaponry or lives and that must have increased the national debt by a massive amount. There's no return on that is there ?
A deficit is the difference between money available against what is forecast to be spent where there is a shortfall.
If you have £2000 and you plan to spend £3000 you have a deficit of £1000 and hence to do this you need to borrow £1000 or borrow less and run at a risk.
Yes, we do normally get a return from wars, also wars don't cost quite as much as stated because of the normal running costs. We paid the USA to be in WW2, we got money back of Germany for WW2. I'm sure we surcharge countries for wars we get involved at either directly or indirectly. Most modern wars have been financial based, we wouldn't get involved if we didn't have a financial incentive though money or trade.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
As I have said in the past, a cruel twist of fate some bad luck like redundancy, and within weeks anyone could become one of the burdens on the state, the oft quoted idle and unemployed the scapegoats, with no employment and maybe a mortgage and all the other associated bills that come with running a home and family to pay for, don't expect any sympathy from the wonderful Tories your previous work record of maybe 20 or 30 years or more will mean nothing, you will become one of their statistics maybe forced to take a zero hrs contract that couldn't possibly support your obligations, so just think on when you stick labels on and criticise others, it could easily be you or one of your family, god forbid.
Blimey, this is getting confusing. About 3 different topics in one.
DD.....does that mean should Russia come and invade us, we have to pay them for the privilege ? Can't imagine Iraq gave us any anything back !
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Yes Casper I am sympathetic and feel sorry for the genuine people who find themselves on benefits fir all sorts of reasons but unfortunatlely the system has been overrun by all the shirkers and cheats who abuse the benefits and proudly boast if it. I don't agree with zero hours that should be stopped.
As of 2013, UK Afghanistan war alone cost have been calculated as £37bn
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Yes Casper I am sympathetic and feel sorry for the genuine people who find themselves on benefits fir all sorts of reasons but unfortunatlely the system has been overrun by all the shirkers and cheats who abuse the benefits and proudly boast if it. I don't agree with zero hours that should be stopped.
Ha yes, the system now caters more to the shirkers and cheats, and those in real need at times don't get any help at all. It comes to somethink when people who are disabled due to having their legs blown off in wars are not allowed disability benifits but those who lie about having an illness and pretend they can't work get disability benefits.
As of 2013, UK Afghanistan war alone cost have been calculated as £37bn
Yep, but deduct the normal running costs from that figure, deduct the budgeted war chest from that figure and real additional cost works out nowhere near that amount, it hardly caused a blip on the graphs unlike WW1 and WW2.
If Russia attacks us and we defeat them, the terms of surrender will include compensation, this can be in land or assets. If they beat us then as losers we don't get compensated. I believe the correct term is "reparations".
I might have been incorrect in saying Germany compensated us after WW2, part of WW2 came about because of Germany's WW1 reparation agreement which they refused to pay after 1933. After WW2 the UK decided that financially punishing Germany again might not be productive. Other countries did receive WW2 reparations from Germany.
Some WW1 reparations are still being paid.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Yes Casper I am sympathetic and feel sorry for the genuine people who find themselves on benefits fir all sorts of reasons but unfortunatlely the system has been overrun by all the shirkers and cheats who abuse the benefits and proudly boast if it. I don't agree with zero hours that should be stopped.
Ha yes, the system now caters more to the shirkers and cheats, and those in real need at times don't get any help at all. It comes to somethink when people who are disabled due to having their legs blown off in wars are not allowed disability benifits but those who lie about having an illness and pretend they can't work get disability benefits.
Like the guy in a wheelchair got caught jogging in a park one day .And i bet there are loads more
Your missing the point, the system is designed to punish not to assist, its no good saying you have sympathy but it the dodgy claimants to blame, its the government system to blame by punishing everybody regardless, its akin to the system the long ago vanquished Nazi party used, blame a proportion of the population for all the ills of the country whilst filling their boots at every ones expense, your point about the disabled forces veterans is a valid one, but again the system doesn't discriminate between the deserving and the blaggers ever body is guilty of alleged abuse, just one point about the caring Tories concerning disabled and injured servicemen, they were forbidden to attend in uniform at the Falklands victory parade because Thatcher didn't wish for the public to see the true cost of "her" victory.
Yeah Snowy I quite agree. It's so sad to see these people and we know we would do the same if in their situation but it's got to stop , misery all round. Too soft this country!
On immigration, I don't think the buck stops with us. Didn't Mrs Merkel (her again) tell Mr Cameron last year, that if he wasn't in agreement with her and continued the argument about controlling immigration to UK , then she might not support Britain's membership of the EU. (something like that). So , that's a good enough reason to leave. Goodness knows what any of them will come up with as a resolving situation, but the migrants keep on coming and discussions seem to have quietened down again. I would have thought that a better way would be to allocate each migrant to a different EU country. 28 countries could have an even share, no matter how wealthy or poor they are. Not to be given the ability to travel around to other EU countries. That might save some coming across as they may not see Romania or Bulgaria as a particularly good prospect. At the same time the Eurozone should pump more money into each of those economies for help with creating jobs etc. Romania and Bulgaria are living off the rest of us anyway. Let them get on the road to recovery. These migrants know the rules, they know they are behaving illegally, and they know what their plans are before starting their journey. So, with that in mind they should not all be treated as stupid ,uneducated pawns in greater game, they are not. It's their own game that they wish to gamble on. Some very sad cases but not all, by a long shot, are running away from their own country and seeking refuge elsewhere due to war ? All I see is another generation facing modern day slavery for these people or living in camps for the next so many years. It always amazes me HOW the people from such poor countries, manage to raise enough money to pay the people trafficker. They earn much, much less than we do, i.e. if they earn anything at all, and it would take us a fare while to raise the funds. Are they being helped like the Vietnamese boat people were, all those years ago, which was basically ethnic cleansing by their own government.
Just an opinion which could be wrong and questionable. Even so, Mrs Merkel would seem to be pulling the noose at this moment in time.
I don't have any answers to the people trying to get to Europe from Syria etc via boat but they must be desperate to risk the journey especially the people who attempt this with their children.
However, I don't think this should be just a European issue and certainly not predominantly Italys problem. There are many rich non EU countries who could also help.
The biggest hurdle is that the vast majority of the people attempting to get to Lampedusa etc are uneducated so there is a risk that they will either be used as slave labour or just take from whichever country they end up in. Neither scenario is good.
We should always keep our borders open for asylum seekers.
I know there was a meeting a couple of weeks ago to discuss the issue of immigrants risking life and limb to escape their own countries but apparently there was no decision. It's a very difficult situation where Italy' Greece and Malta have been swamped but above all they are PEOPLE. People in distress, maybe wiki people have some ideas.
I know there was a meeting a couple of weeks ago to discuss the issue of immigrants risking life and limb to escape their own countries but apparently there was no decision. It's a very difficult situation where Italy' Greece and Malta have been swamped but above all they are PEOPLE. People in distress, maybe wiki people have some ideas.
Build a massive 50ft high electric fence round the uk borders. with a very loud alarm.
We should always keep our borders open for asylum seekers.
The difficulty is in defining "asylum seekers".
They know to apply for 'asylum', as once they are granted that status, they are able to travel wherever they wish to. Most of them are heading for Germany ,France or the UK.
Many of these migrants are also passing without hindrance through many different countries . Do they have passports ? Probably not. In their home land do they have television or radio and mobile phones ? Probably yes. Can they drive ? Probably yes. They all seem to be able to speak more than one language, which many of us can not. Most of these people are not refugees, they are migrants. Why do they all wish to travel to Europe ? Probably because those who are making the most gain out of it, are filling their heads with rubbish and untruths. If you were running an illegal business, isn't that what you would do? The message needs to get through to these mislead people that they are about to embark on a tale of misery and that London's streets are no longer paved with gold. Don't underestimate these people, they may dress in rags or attire we don't encourage, but they are pretty clued up and not fools. To call them uneducated is probably in many case very wrong and untrue. They have a different life to us but are pretty capable of being self sufficient when we have to turn to food banks. They are strong minded and have a long history of survival, they are also smart and calculated. Look at a map of Africa to see the distance they are travelling across land. Also look at some of the cities /towns within those countries My feelings are for them in regard that they are being lead into a situation which they do not realise, but they set off knowing full well that they are doing something illegal with the hope of applying for asylum, after which their families can join them. Paid for by ? Syria, is a different situation altogether, but many of those fleeing the trouble are in Turkey and Jordan until such time as they can be repatriated.
Last edited by granny; 10th May 20155:48pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
'Michael Gove has been appointed Secretary of Justice, his first job will be the scrap the human rights act (below), read it, it will be gone in a 100 days apparently'.
How would proportional representation be possible ?
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Don't know Snowy. If we still had to vote for our preferred MP in our area, let's say Labour ;),and they won the seat and Tories got the highest % of votes overall throughout the country, but fewer MP's , how could a government be formed with fewer Tory MPs' than Labour MP's ? The problem must arise when there are so many smaller parties taking the votes from the 'now' two main parties.
Yes, SNP got 50% of the vote, but they only have a population of 5.3million.
London alone has a population of 8.6 million.
Having said that, what a cheeky madam she is, telling us what she is about to 'get' for the 2.5million who voted for her. Is that fair ? What did the other 50% of the Scottish population hope for ?
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Looks like we are not good enough to be allowed the Human Rights Act here, there will no doubt be challenges through Strasbourg should the Tories try to change any of the fundamental rights of the act, the manipulation of our population (wow I should be a poet)has begun, we are now being told what the government will allow us to have, which is less than the rest of Europe.
Isn't this a good thing? I know I have said many times wish they'd get rid of human rights act! On paper sounds great but has been used so many times wrongly costing us millions and in my opinion disgracefully. everybody no matter what they've done pleading human rights!
Quite agree in some respects Cools, human rights given to the likes of. murderers and people that offend against children. They afford their victims no human rights so should be served the same treatment.
Casper, even though it was another of Blair's babies, Labour want to get rid of it as much as anybody.
When Europe have power to over ride the Supreme Court in our own land and the following link shows how it can work against us, like Cools and Dilly, I would have thought it a good thing too. With the onset of this country being filled with criminal activity from foreign people of foreign countries, do we really want the same situation as we had with Aba Qatada ?
They will have a Bill for protecting 'Human Rights In the UK'.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Good morning granny, a good sensible response as ever, however we have to look at the long game, which part of the act do you think the government would wish to amend or remove? on paper it looks fair and acceptable as cools has said, so should we remove or amend the right to a family life, this seems to be the one used to save people from deportation, or should we remove article 11 freedom of assembly, which will in effect stop any meetings or demonstrations against an imposition or unjust government action ? lets be very careful that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, by the way I did vote Labour, by my estimation the best of a bad bunch, but I think we have a lot to fear from a right wing Tory party, they have some very nasty and vindictive people in their government and if given free reign by DC it will end in tears for millions of ordinary people.
What you say is correct, various distinctions to be taken into account, and we won't know what is proposed until it is proposed and we can see the new Bill.
I see that this morning, they are about to propose EU immigration quotas. Also .... quote
" The European Commission's migration policy, to be announced on Wednesday, will also propose organising legal means for migrants to come to Europe so they do not turn to traffickers".
That would surely be a better way to go, as each and every bad situation unravels as a result of another situation gone wrong. Never ending, in the midst of a population explosion.
All things seem to be one big bundle of knotted knitting wool and if reincarnation is on the cards, I hope we are given a choice. I would rather not end up in the slammer, but I don't want to come back either. Could Strasbourg sort that one ? Oh yes, could end up as body parts!
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Another fine mess as Stan and Olly would say, but I honestly fear for the future of our country, are we destined to end up like the USA, with homeless communities and people living out of shopping trollies, the sick and disabled denied care because they cant afford insurance, and gangs roaming the streets because of the lack of policing, fire services cut to the bone, I sincerely hope this is not the route we are taking for the sake of a strong economy.
Voting, is a process which leads to many other things, and some things have to be tackled by all political party. Amnesty International constantly criticise everything that any party tries to resolve, but never put forward a sensible solution.
Thinking about these migrants from Libya, squashed onto boats like sardines, children and all , they don't appear to arrive with smelly bums or wet pants do they ? Maybe they haven't been at sea for as long as we are meant to believe. We can't always trust the media to give an accurate picture can we ?
...and without a strong economy, your thoughts Casper, are precisely where we could end up. Lack of strong economy means gay abandon by all, then the anarchists could have their way.
Last edited by granny; 11th May 201512:00pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The Labour party needs people to leave it, time and time again they've been told they have turned into a right wing party, people voting with their feet might eventually get through to them.
Milliband might have spouted some left wing things but he is too much a clone of Blair for most people's to believe him.
They need a leader with real experience of life, not college kids that have spent their life in politics or finance.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I'm saddened to hear that Stuart Kelly, councillor for Oxton lost to Labour, no doubt as some deluded "punishment" for Clegg siding with the Tories in the coalition.
Doughty, you have some very big shoes to fill. Stuart Kelly worked tirelessly for the area and kept people updated with regular newsletters.
I'm saddened to hear that Stuart Kelly, councillor for Oxton lost to Labour
I agree, I'm not a fan of lib-dems but Stuart is a bloomin good intelligent councillor/politician, a few more of his ilk and we would have a much better council.
Don't entirely agree with your "deluded punishment" statement, the lib-dems chose to put the tories in power in 2010, they could have chosen labour instead or left it as a hung parliament in which they would have had more control than they did as a coalition.
If (in 2010) both labour and tories refused to form a government because they would have been minorities, surely the lib-dems could have threatened to form a minority government and been in even more control - or did they bottle it?
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I don't know what's next for the Labour party Concentration on winning more votes in southern England and losing votes possibly in the North where seats have been taken for granted as was in Scotland. It says something about the rise of Ukip in England, surely a lot of their manifesto struck a chord with quite a few voters which Labour could have taken over as some of their manifesto. Although I didn't vote Ukip I do believe they have shaken up the complacency of the Cons and Labour mainly by firstly introducing immigration as a talking point which has led to a referendum on EU
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
You really do not have a clue, do you. It would be wise of you t keep away of these discussions with such a limited view. You are just making a fool of yourself.
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
Yes Deano, there is a huge amount of that. To actually believe that many work hard and accrue what they achieve in life is not always something many can accept. Woe betide them if they should be left a few bob in the Wills of their hardworking grandparents/parents. (The left would like that too)
Labour also lost because of the dreadful mess they left last time, and of course, Miliband was never going to be the leader that people had confidence in. Blame the people who told him he could do it ! They've made him look a fool.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
Yes Deano, there is a huge amount of that. To actually believe that many work hard and accrue what they achieve in life is not always something many can accept. Woe betide them if they should be left a few bob in the Wills of their hardworking grandparents/parents. (The left would like that too)
Labour also lost because of the dreadful mess they left last time, and of course, Miliband was never going to be the leader that people had confidence in. Blame the people who told him he could do it ! They've made him look a fool.
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
Yes Deano, there is a huge amount of that. To actually believe that many work hard and accrue what they achieve in life is not always something many can accept. Woe betide them if they should be left a few bob in the Wills of their hardworking grandparents/parents. (The left would like that too)
Labour also lost because of the dreadful mess they left last time, and of course, Miliband was never going to be the leader that people had confidence in. Blame the people who told him he could do it ! They've made him look a fool.
The 'Miliband' comment is probably true. As for the rest, I suggest that you do what you usually do and search the web for the correct information. Then you can back come and do something you have never done. Admit you are wrong.
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
Yes Deano, there is a huge amount of that. To actually believe that many work hard and accrue what they achieve in life is not always something many can accept. Woe betide them if they should be left a few bob in the Wills of their hardworking grandparents/parents. (The left would like that too)
Labour also lost because of the dreadful mess they left last time, and of course, Miliband was never going to be the leader that people had confidence in. Blame the people who told him he could do it ! They've made him look a fool.
The 'Miliband' comment is probably true. As for the rest, I suggest that you do what you usually do and search the web for the correct information. Then you can back come and do something you have never done. Admit you are wrong.
So far as I'm concerned, you don't believe in God and you don't believe in voting, so your opinion makes no impression on me. You obviously don't believe in the web either, so what are you doing on here ?
Last edited by granny; 12th May 20159:39am.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I voted labour, and value all the things that the majority of people strive for, I don't begrudge anything to anyone, in fact I go out of my way to help those less fortunate, if that makes me some kind of a leftie or whatever label someone wants to stick on me then so be it, there are two sides to every tale, and I really cant abide people that crave for all the trappings of the high life at the cost to others, those that would take anothers job by undercutting or by cutting corners lets be blunt or by shitting on others, it all boils down to how you were brought up, my kids are buying their own homes because they followed what we did they work very hard but they struggle as we did we help them as best as we can the same as our parents helped us, so to label Labour voters as jealous is just silly nonsense, there are reasonable people in all walks of life and in the different political parties, its those that carry extreme views the likes of DeanoBirko who open their mouths without thinking, perhaps when he has experience of life and as he grows up, he might realise that everything is not in black and white.
So far as I'm concerned, you don't believe in God and you don't believe in voting, so your opinion makes no impression on me. You obviously don't believe in the web either, so what are you doing on here ?
What the hell does religion have to do with it? I do not vote because I believe that the system is wrong.
If you do what I suggest you will learn that the Labour Party did not cause the financial crisis and that the are plenty of millionaires who vote Labour.
So far as I'm concerned, you don't believe in God and you don't believe in voting, so your opinion makes no impression on me. You obviously don't believe in the web either, so what are you doing on here ?
What the hell does religion have to do with it? I do not vote because I believe that the system is wrong.
If you do what I suggest you will learn that the Labour Party did not cause the financial crisis and that the are plenty of millionaires who vote Labour.
Did I say that Labour caused the financial crisis? You are putting words into your own head. If I told you I was a millionairess , you would hate me all the more. So I won't tell you that, but you are obviously a recycled 'old member'.
Casper, you are a nice guy with your principles and not the type of person that the original point was directed at.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
So far as I'm concerned, you don't believe in God and you don't believe in voting, so your opinion makes no impression on me. You obviously don't believe in the web either, so what are you doing on here ?
What the hell does religion have to do with it? .
Getting more money is the main religion of many nowadays and for some there is no wrong about getting it. I do believe in the old clause iv of the Labour party
The original version of Clause IV, drafted by Sidney Webb in November 1917 and adopted by the party in 1918, read, in part 4: To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.
as opposed to unearned wealth such as A recent Oxfam report found that the United Kingdom’s five richest families had a total wealth of £28.2bn (around $50bn) making them richer than Britain’s 12.6 million poorest residents.
The UK study follows an Oxfam report earlier this year which found that the wealth of 85 global billionaires is equivalent to that of half the world's population – or 3.5 billion people. The pope and Barack Obama have made tackling inequality a top priority for 2014, while the International Monetary Fund has warned that the growing divide between the haves and have-nots is leading to slower global growth.
Thank you granny, just a point when we got a mortgage for our house my old dad said you are now "middle class" I couldn't believe he said that, but that's how that generation thought, the poor buggers had nowt yet they helped my sister and brother I don't remember them having a holiday,my dear old mum saved money from my allotment money that gave us a deposit for that house, I know from experience what it is to be stuck, and that comment by deanobirko really annoyed me.
Labour lost because they were TOO left leaning. People just want a steady job and to keep their houses. The left just hate people having money and they try to bring everyone else down.
No, its exactly the opposite, the left just hate people having little money and try to bring them up.
Who "owns" the world's resources, who "owns" the person's labour?
Right wing policies depend on the rich being philanthropic, even Maggie Thatcher later admitted her policies failed because she though the rich would be philanthropic like many were in the Victorian age, unfortunately the rich are now greedy instead of philanthropic.
Left wing policies realise that greed exists and once someone achieves financial dominance they can continue to escalate that dominance to the disadvantage of others. To counter this there must be a method of distributing wealth.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
DD, the wealth was distributed by the last Labour government. They brought in minimum wage, which in it's own right was welcomed by the many. It also encouraged companies to employ more part time positions, with a top up of working tax credit to keep the unemployment figures down, which in turn saw the slightly higher paid positions to be redesigned ,allowing the previously higher wages to drop . They brought everyone down to the same level, which will not change now. It also gave companies the privilege of mounting their piles of profit and giving bonus payments to management. .... I would call it a false economy for those few years, but why did they do it and stifle those who were getting reasonable money at the time ?
If a company has an amount set aside for salaries and it is not used up, then it has to be used prior to the end of the financial year, to qualify for at least the same amount the following year. So instead of those in management having an increase in salaries, they received bonuses. The bonus culture has got out of hand and much always did make more.
The Government does not set the minimum wage increase, but what everyone was overjoyed about 12 years ago, all of a sudden it doesn't make them happy anymore. There are all sorts of people who struggle in this life and a foregone conclusion that poor people vote Labour and rich people vote Tory is probably the most ludicrous thought to behold.
Many of the most wealthy in this country are not even Nationals, but we seldom hear anyone moaning about the fees that our footballers earn and the high life styles they put on display for the minions to view and try to follow. Now the person on minimum wage is no longer happy, they want more and yes, I admit they need more too, but unless the minimum wage is abolished, it's not going to happen.
Whose wealth would think should be distributed ? Surgeons, consultants, scientists, CEO's, Mr Whittaker of Peel holdings ? As we have globalisation then it will only get worse, as much will own more and more, globally.
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Last edited by granny; 12th May 20153:50pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Working Tax Credit wasn't a way of topping up part-timers, you need to work at least 30 hours a week to get WTC unless you are disabled, over 60 or have children in which case you have to work 16 hours (or 24 as a couple).
Nobody should have been paid at less than what the minimum wage was, but unfortunately they were. People on silly low money like £2 an hour needed protection and the Government rightly protected them. Yes it also sets an unfortunate target, is there a way round this?
If the minimum wage didn't exist, the people with less than the minimum wage would have to be propped up further by benefits - the state would be further subsidising an employer???
Looking at the situation now, the Eastern European immigrants would be driving the wages down if it wasn't for the minimum wage. There are many who already work (illegally) at less than minimum wage, sometimes this is fiddled by working longer hours than their payslip states.
The poorest need the most financial protection.
If an employer pays the minimum wage, he is paying the lowest wage he can get away with, do you really think he wouldn't pay less if he could?
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The big mistake the lib dems made when offered coalition with the tories was that they didn't make tuition fees a "deal breaker", had they done so they would maybe retained their M.P.s and respect from Cameron and co.
Lib dems did make a big mistake, but I think Clegg fell down the minute he said he would drop into bed with anyone who was likely to be the major player. That took away any sense of commitment from him. Even so, I feel sorry for him really,he's the only one who does get my sympathy.
DD, I don't know whether or not £2 an hour was so widespread . Prior to moving back to this area, and receiving over £1.20 less per hour for the same job I had been doing in Suffolk, there were not any jobs in that area offering such low wages. Going into the job centre, when the jobs were listed on the walls, (remember) and anyone could pick a job, go to the desk and get an interview lined up there and then. No jobs with such low wages down there. Suffolk was a rural place with minimal opportunities at the time. It was only when I moved back here, that I realised how different things were here. Yearly contracts and have 3 months off to save them paying pensions, sickness and in some cases holiday pay. So yes, certain employers must have been allowed to get away with such employment conditions, and it's gone from bad to worse. Zero hour contracts now but it wasn't all beer and skittles through from 1999 to 2010 when the figures below are seen. There was a bumpy ride . I must say, that IDS is not my favourite in fact he has to be the most loathed but today we hear they are going to look after our 'bread and butter' We'll see but they were still a better bet than Labour this time around at least.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
working tax benefits are a blessing for those who receive them but they do subsidise bad employers who if they can't afford to pay a decent wage maybe shouldn't be in business.
The minimum wage was a good thing when it was first introduced but all too soon became the general wage.
@granny I'm sure in the 1990's even in Suffolk there were navvies and agricultural workers on £2 an hour like there was round all other parts of the country. Don't forget that minimum wage was brought in at £3.60.
If you want to see how cheapskate many employers are with wages, look at the average age of the staff, if a disproportionate number of them are under 21 years old then that says everything, they want to pay less than the adult minimum wage.
21 and over £6.50 18 - 20 £5.13 Under 18 £3.79
So next time you see a business with a load of 17 years olds working there, just remember that the employer thinks £3.79 an hour is an adequate wage and if minimum wage was abolished he would probably pay even less than that.
The modern apprenticeships make this even worse by legalising £2.73 an hour.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
But if minimum wage was abolished, there might be a bit more competition to get good staff.
No, if there were agricultural workers on lower pay, ( not £2 per hour) they would at least have had a tithe cottage and when I lived in Kent, there were never any poor agricultural workers. They were in the pub every night where the coalman drank with the millionaires and the cleaners drank with their employers. Where the employers had open house for their workers at any time of day or night and where they gave parties for the whole of the village at Christmas and on Bonfire night. Everyone shared what they had and down to fruit and veg. Different way of living altogether and they also swapped wives
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
But if minimum wage was abolished, there might be a bit more competition to get good staff.
No, if there were agricultural workers on lower pay, ( not £2 per hour) they would at least have had a tithe cottage and when I lived in Kent, there were never any poor agricultural workers. They were in the pub every night where the coalman drank with the millionaires and the cleaners drank with their employers. Where the employers had open house for their workers at any time of day or night and where they gave parties for the whole of the village at Christmas and on Bonfire night. Everyone shared what they had and down to fruit and veg. Different way of living altogether and they also swapped wives
But if minimum wage was abolished, there might be a bit more competition to get good staff.
If the employers see low wages as a preference to finding good staff then I can't see how changes in minimum wages is magically going to change their thriftiness.
I bet you lived around Whitton somewhere, not around Kirkley
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Blame is a four way chicken and egg - producers, suppliers, customers and legislators. All can be blamed and all can blame the others.
I thought milk was all sorted a year or two ago after the government stepped in, then suddenly it dropped down to £1 and the to 89p for four pints and then the farmers said they were back into loss. Confused me no end.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
@ Snowy. It was like living in an Alice in Wonderland story. I could tell some tales, such as the time the doctor called to see mother in law who was ill. Afterwards, he went downstairs and got pissed with my father in law, over a bottle of scotch between them, before he drove home to his wife. With whom he didn't get on and they had built a brick wall in the middle of the house to divide it. They continued go out together every Sunday for lunch. Or the neighbour who was trying to drown his wife, in the wash basin, but she kept pulling the plug out. Or the pub that took horses in for a pint. Or the time they went on holiday and I was left on my own to look after the farm, with a stupid dog and a double barrel shotgun for protection ! Strangely, thinking back, nobody ever had a day off sick from work. Fat head or not, always up and out at the same time everyday.
Well off topic now, back to Casper, and your parents would have been so proud to have helped you on your way. Isn't that the same feeling we get now if we can help our children ? Things never came easy to that generation but they knew how to count and spend their pennies. Not so now as the cost of living fluctuates constantly, price of things remained the same for years, once upon a time. That's how these old folk on here can remember the cost of everything. 6d bag of chips, was always 6d. (2 1/2 p) for those who are not sure.
Last edited by granny; 13th May 20151:38pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Those who argued against the minimum wage foresaw what would happen and it did. The first ones to lose their jobs were those who were what you would now call "special needs", who were employed by good hearted people to help them. When they minimum wage had to be paid they couldn't afford it so had to let them go because they weren't fully productive. It's all been down hill since. When I joined the RAF as I was on supplementary benefit to make up my wages. It was a weird world to be in. Real poverty doesn't exist nowadays, it's a myth.
The whole tax and benefit system should be scrapped and re-thought, its a mess of thousands of patches brought in over many years and much of it is moving money round in circles especially for in-work benefits.
I don't think anyone would disagree that some sort of restriction on the minimum you can pay someone has to be in place, when there is a surplus of labour the free labour market will not work.
It will matter little soon, the conservatives are promising to bring in hire and fire which will be the final straw in destabilising the whole country. You can bet that MP's and Ministers won't be on a hire and fire type contract.
The Government's job is to bring stability to the country, doing the opposite is treason.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
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who did you vote for? 
a party political broadcast by the conversative party back in the day still true today 
and it's put me off voting every again. ![[Linked Image]](http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/73120000/jpg/_73120912_f4816163-ab6b-4de6-8ab2-eb0de07c4dd9.jpg)
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So true.
