Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request Woodchurch 'Stone'

DD, thanks for sharing that, as I was just posting to Greenwood take a look at the 1885 1" OS map of the same area, the cartographer has drawn some curious looking objects...could they be stones?

Here's my post 'Megaliths On The Wirral?' Asking questions and setting the context https://intothegreenblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/05/megaliths-on-the-wirral/ There will be a Part 2 once I have concluded looking into possible alignments

So here's the results of my researches into the stones linked with Arrowe Park https://intothegreenblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/11/summer-solstice-alignment-in-arrowe-park/ Hope it proves of interest and stimulates others to look more closely at what may well be an ancient astronomical alignment on the Wirral. Happy to discuss the subject here

Some really interesting info in there. Had me checking my diary to see if i was in work for the summer solstice. I 'm off and i can't wait to check this out. Keep up the good work.

Hi Stegga, If you or others are able to make it to that location for Summer Solstice sunrise then the findings would be realistically tested. Touch wood as they say

....Do bear in mind though that most of the stones have been lost and the two remaining I have yet to check for any possible alignment. Will post an update on that.

Anyone interested in surveying Arrowe Park's Enigmatic Standing Stones? https://intothegreenblog.wordpress....-to-survey-arrowe-parks-standing-stones/

Hi, just to let you know that having calculated and processed the data for the remaining stone located in Arrowe Park (53, 21 9 N and 3, 5, 8 W) it is showing a very close Solar Declination of +23 Degrees. This suggests it, like others once in that region, could be aligned to the Summer Solstice sunrise.

Greg Dawson's book on Arrowe states that:

'Whilst walking through the park many old gatestoops can be seen. These are left over from the days when this area was farm fields enclosed by hedges. The old hedges were pulled out and the ditches filled in, but the sandstone stoops still mark the ancient gateways'.

Considering his family farmed in the area for many generations, and his depth of local knowledge, I'm inclined to think any other explanation for the stones is just playing join the dots.

YinYang Indeed they may well be gate posts or boundary markers alternatively their placement could have older origins and function, we are in a position of asking questions and looking at what could be alignments. That such purpose has been established at many megalithic sites is beyond question, also it is well known that standing stones were often recycled, relocated or left in position and used as field markers/gate posts. The stones themselves can offer no evidence, so we are left with local knowledge and/or cartographic details, which is itself limited beyond a certain time. With these stones, most of which have disappeared what we do have is an interesting frequency and distribution, in addition there seems to be positioning related to Summer Solstice with a number of them. This is either a rare coincidence, which can happen, or suggestive of an intent of purpose. When considering reports on the lost stone circle at nearby Overchurch it may well be that the Wirral had such structures and alignments. Of course folk are free to interpret as they choose, that's the beauty of discussion

If a stone is local stone (i.e. sandstone, in the case of Wirral), and is the size and shape of a gatepost; on land which is known to have been farmland, and which corresponds to field boundaries on a tithe map; then I'd say it is precisely that - nothing more than a gatepost.

If the stone is of unusual size, or is carved or decorated with pictish symbols, or cup marks etc., and stands in an area with associated archaeological finds (or crop marks) then perhaps you are on to something a little more interesting. But, given that so little is known of Wirral's pre-history, it is very tempting for people to project their own beliefs and desires onto this blank canvas of the past. And if people are intent on interpreting every rock or gatepost as significant and as part of a wider 'sacred' landscape, then this says more about us (the people of today) then anything truly authentic about the past.

Yin Yang indeed there is a seductive logic to the 'if it walks like a duck' it must be a waterbird, however with the stones in question it may not be as simple as applying such reasoning. Why so? Well many of them were sited not in the area now marked as Arrowe Park, with the possible implication that on its formation they were 'fossils' indicating some previous farming boundary or gating. Quite a number were marked in pre-existing fields, often sited away from marked boundaries, in addition they are sometimes positioned within a short distance of each other and do appear to have an orientation. We also should consider the geo-positioning and their relationship to Solar Declination, some of these stones, albeit on initial examination, are suggesting a Summer Solstice alignment. Now taken together this is not conclusive evidence, the discussion of these features has, both on this Forum and on the Blog I posted, been clearly framed in a speculative context. What it does do however is to raise interesting questions, one of which is of course why would the Wirral not have any megalithic structures? Regarding shapes and marking of stones we need to exercise caution in that not all standing stones come supplied with obvious pictograms, and as to shape such stones can and have been reworked over the centuries. As I mentioned the material nature or surface of stones themselves offer little indication of original function. That is not to say, and no one has, that such stones were used not as agricultural posts or boundaries. Cartographic sources, in terms of detail become of little use beyond a certain time, in this case it would appear to be the maps of the late 19th Century, prior to that details of individual stones seem rather absent. This means that as verifiable source such maps offer questionable value relating to function of such objects.

In closing I think it only fair to clarify that no one is asserting "every rock or gatepost as significant and as part of a wider 'sacred' landscape". Anyone reading the thread or indeed the Blog will soon appreciate the questions being asked relate to a possible alignment of three stones. The matter of 'sacred landscape', as questioned regarding possible megalithic rows which may have exited in that part of the Wirral, should not be misunderstood as some vast Carnac-like vista with hundreds of stone rows, such an interpretation was neither suggested or implied.

I am in agreement with you on the relative lack of knowledge concerning the ancient history of the Wirral, however absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence. We need also to remember that human activity over such a period of time, especially land use has eliminated or obscured much archeology. No doubt this has happened locally and explains the paucity of structures from the Neolithic and Bronze Age, yet the area itself was no doubt home to such cultures, had a local supply of sandstone and areas of higher land on which to site monuments of various form or purpose.

It could be that a number of stones marked on the map were part of such a construction, equally it may well be that they were of later construction and use, alternatively they may well date from ancient times and have been reworked and repositioned for farming purposes. Clearly you have a fixed view on the subject, I am simply questioning and remaining open to a range of possibilities, including an alignment. Anyway I note your position and respect your decision take a different perspective, although I won't exchange further as it is unfair to monopolize the thread.

Although I agree with YinYang that is easy to over-read things, one thing that has always puzzled me are the lack of extensive settlements on the Wirral, there are so many reasons why Wirral makes a natural place for settlements. I'll attempt a list.

Weather/climate - much of the Wirral being in the rain/wind shadow of the North Wales mountain range gives us lot of natural protection, being coastal prevents severe cold spells.

Coast - loads of it giving supplies of salt, fish and transport.

Geology - supplies of easy to work sandstone as well as clay, coal and I think harder rocks in some places.

Water - plenty of fresh water streams, small lakes etc.

Wildlife - seems to thrive on the Wirral for many of the same reasons mentioned in other sentences. Reasonable depths of soil in many places for the various burrowing animals.

Drainage - much of the land does not flood.

Topology, we have a good mixture of hills, valleys and level lands.

Wood - trees thrive, though its difficult to tell what the natural woods/forests of the Wirral were because of various programs of forestation and de-forestation in the more recent past.

Shelter - the two sandstone ridges provide local shelter.

I'm sure there are more but to mind my the relatively mild weather would seem to be the strongest reason, only the western winds bring us bad weather.

Perhaps ancient settlements were coastal, the sea being used for fishing, transport and trading, and have been lost due to sea level change? Meols was known as an Iron Age port, after all - but you only have to think about the old pics of the petrified forest to realise that a lot has been lost. Inland Wirral might have been heavily wooded apart from the higher ridges, hard to move around, risky due to wild animals etc, so people might have stayed near the coast and little trace now remains of their presence. Also, modern deveopment may have obliterated traces. Mesolithic temporary/seasonal sites have been found here and there - one on Green House Farm land for example - and a Romano-British farmstead was found on the edge of Irby. Who knows what else is yet to be discovered?

Indeed Greenwood, I had an excellent article on the coastal change (including the bridge to Ireland) which I couldn't find last time I looked for it. The timeline of changes completely escape me, I need to search for that article again.