Forums Forums Local News Mr Jollies Circus

selective quotation at its best. What I actually said was:
"The conditions of the pound look fit for purpose to me, A holding unit for a stray, abandoned or lost dog whilst awaiting collection by the owner or rehoming. They are not designed to be a permanent home and IMHO any animal left here for a length of time should be put to sleep and put of its misery.

In reality this is the best that the council can offer with its current finances, how about we get rid of it completely and have no holding unit at all, and any animal brought into the pound is instantly euthanised.

Im an ex-zoo keeper and big animal lover but also a realist, this is not a place for the dogs to live, its a short term holding unit!

So the only thing I could see wrong here, would be how long animals are kept in these units before euthanasia, and this is a management issue rather than a conditions issue."

And I did go on to say:
"If a home can not be found for them within a set period of time, whether that be rehomed to a new family or in any of the many rescues and rehoming centres like the RSPCA or the Dogs trust, then yes. I know its not ideal, but neither is keeping them alive to live a sterile life in what was designed to be a temporary holding unit."

I do not class the enclosure or the conditions at this circus as sterile, nor was it designed as a temporary holding unit, it was designed as a multi-species travelling unit with an outdoor exercise pen, to which it meets its needs.

Did you read the whole thread, including the part about me being an ex Zoo Keeper, and the commendations of my knowledge and experience in the area of captive animal keeping. well during my time as a zoo keeper and since, I have networked with a variety of animal keepers all over Europe, in Super Zoos like Chester to small road side zoos in the likes of Spain and Turkey, including travelling Circuses and Static Circuses. I've seen bad conditions, and this circus doesn't even come close. I've seen poor condition animals in ill health due to their lifestyle and the animals in this circus are the picture of health. I've seen animals in distress and the animals in this circus are not suffering any distress. I've seen cruel training methods and the methods used at this circus are not cruel. And that is why I give my unshakable support.

So if the animals are in good Health, not under any distress and their living conditions are acceptable, then even an anti-circus vet doesn't let their personal opinion get in the way of their professional opinion and gives the circus the green light.

Your knowledge is certainly wide and personally gained. I respect that. So I believe you speak with authority when you judge that Jolie's is a 'good' example of circus animal care.

So, why so reticent in quoting figures? What are the actual dimensions we are talking about for say an exercise enclosure and how long do they stay in it daily, what size for the living accommodation and what size for the travelling accommodation if different to the living one?

Im not baiting you here, I genuinely want to know so I can consider the facts rather than imagining them.

The only reason I don't want to quote figures is that I don't feel its my place to, I'm not too good with figures so wouldn't want to misquote on sizes and then them to be taken as fact, like you said, best to be heard from the horses mouth,

The RSPCA are still complained about yes. Especially in circumstances such as I experienced recently, where upon contacting them to inform them of a number of ducks seemingly in distress at a local pond (which shall remain unnamed) from carelessly discarded fishing wire and tackle, their response was to simply "leave them" and they "would probably just die off at some point in the near future". A slightly different approach to the view cast on the RSPCA with all their Propagan... sorry, advertising and programming such as Animal Hospital. That Rolf Harris fella was a top bloke wasn't he!

Oh, and Mr Hanky, nobody really cares about the Blue Planet Aquarium as fish arent quite as cuddly or fluffy, so they're not as important. Well, at least I imagine that would be the case, as Ive yet to see Protesters hanging out the front entrance with their beautifully created cardboard propaganda creations.



Somebody previously mentioned earlier (my apologies for forgetting who) that Zoos and Safari Parks have come on a long way from their initial inception, and are a different kettle of fish altogether from the Circus! Well if this report from a lady who worked at Knowsley Safari Park is anything to go by, then that statement would be correct, as the Circus is a better quality of life than the Zoos and Safari "Environments". Still no opposition to those companies trading though I see......

Liz Tyson, Director of the Captive Animals’ Protection Society, said:

“Shocking as the pictures that we reveal are, what is perhaps even more shocking is that killing animals is all part and parcel of zoo practice. Zoo breeding programmes are in place to encourage people through the turnstiles and ensure a constant supply of animals to show to paying visitors. Rather than being released into the wild, the sad truth is that animals are routinely killed as they become surplus to requirements. As we’ve seen here, corpses are sometimes left lying around for many days; not only creating an environmental hazard but also distressing staff who are unhappy about the slaughtering.

“Often lauded as a more humane alternative to a traditional zoo setup, we urge people to scratch below the surface of the public perception of safari parks, to see the evidence of what goes on behind closed doors. Zoos are not protectors and saviours of animals. Effective conservation has long been shown to be concerned with the protection of entire ecosystems and confining individual species with no opportunity for future release cannot, and will not, achieve this aim. With this in mind, it is vital that resources are not directed towards paying entrance fees to zoos and safari parks but towards the support of true conservation initiatives in these animals’ natural habitats.


Also like to point out, that the "Noah's Ark" attraction in Spain, although seen in a better light as it rehomes animals who were up for slaughter, actually manages to replicate the exact same living conditions as zoos and the Circus by enclosing "Wild" animals in captivity. Nothing but praise for that location though. Good old Hypocrisy rearing its head again

So if the animals are in good Health, not under any distress and their living conditions are acceptable, then even an anti-circus vet doesn't let their personal opinion get in the way of their professional opinion and gives the circus the green light. [/quote]

This was the quote from DEFRA, taken from my post on page 5 of this topic, which you portray to be the experts and professionals opinion in this field. They are obviously waiting for the time when wild animals are banned from circuses , and in the meantime keeping ahead of th game for the benefit of the animals. Of which, the circuses are expecting inspections and have at this moment in time , cleaned up their act. That's pretty normal for anyone having inspections, and unannounced.

"The same article is followed with a statement from a spokesman for DEFRA ;

A spokesman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said it still intends to ban wild animals in circuses.

He said: “We are committed to banning the use of wild animals in circuses and will introduce legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.


“As we work towards a ban we have a strict system in place to ensure the welfare of all 23 circus animals in England – this includes announced and unannounced inspections, care plans for every animal, regular veterinary inspections and a retirement plan for each animal.”

What would you be likely to do Waddi, would you keep everything ship shape, just incase ?
These animals have been bred in captivity and known no other life, I cannot understand how we can prove that such wild animals with their genes of thousands of years are meant to be caged for circuses to use as fun. I truly cannot, and cannot understand anyone else even considering it to be ok . There is no sense in that opinion. If these inspections and personal actions had not been carried out, there would be far, far more than 23 wild animals nationwide in circuses at the moment , which means that overall, the animals have either been rescued, euthanized , or died of old age and not been replaced. That would tell us that it's not such a popular event anymore. These animals should NOT be replaced with another generation of them after this present 23 in the uk. The practice should be outlawed for any circus coming to the UK
I would like to see DEFRA's figures on this because according to other records there are many animals still being rescued in this country, and if the ban is in place it will be a ban for foreign owned circuses coming here too, with their rather more cruel attitude of mind to animals.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-26880660

Given your vast professional experience Waddi -----

"the commendations of my knowledge and experience in the area of captive animal keeping. well during my time as a zoo keeper and since, I have networked with a variety of animal keepers all over Europe, in Super Zoos like Chester to small road side zoos in the likes of Spain and Turkey, including travelling Circuses and Static Circuses. I've seen bad conditions, and this circus doesn't even come close. "

--I find it implausible that you dont have a really good grasp of sizing as you'd need it, to partake in the networking you have done. For captive animals , size of accommodation has to be a HUGE part of discussions as its so relevant to behaviour and health.

So,because I think you would be too professional to lie, although I take your point about being quoted on sizes at Jollie's , I feel its more a case of you knowing that the sizes I asked for, would look terrible when considered by ordinary animal lovers who would see it as the equivalent of keeping their own domestic cat in a space the size of a bedroom ottoman most of the time , and a rabbit run ,for it to exercise in for a short time in the day.
You really should have the courage of your convictions , state the approx sizes which Im sure you can do reasonably accurately,and allow us to consider them.

I certainly wouldnt trust the answers of a circus trainer.

Regarding your association of animals looking in tip top health with whether they are well treated or not. There is little correlation in many cases . Case in point on TV last night on dangerous dogs. Pitbulls horribly kicked around and tormented --- they looked absolutely beautiful healthwise -- better in fact than my own well cared for bullterrier.

But Venice, you trust Zoos and Safari Parks with their "Conservation efforts", despite also preventing animals from having free reign of their own domain? And if you read my post above, you will have a brief glimpse about what happens behind the scenes.

You also happen to own your own pet, your bullterrier. Could you please divulge in providing us with the exact dimensions of the rooms of your House, Garden, Vehicle and any potential areas for "Walkies" so that we can consider whether or not these are truly appropriate for an animal that should be wild? Is it being fed an appropriate diet that it would experience in the wild? I assume your bull terrier also has its own collar and leash, would these be readily available in the wild?

If we want Justice and freedom for Circus animals, then surely freedom and justice should be granted to all animals, domesticated or otherwise. Only Human intervention over the years has placed that dog into your ownership via domestication and breeding. The same way circus animals are absorbed into entertainment. They are not simply, plucked from the plains of Africa and dumped in a cage. In fact, I would argue that the Circus animals themselves could potentially perish if released into their natural homes, as they would lack the necessary skills for survival!

Total freedom is obviously not possible in our world, but we must strive for the best we can offer when we take animals from their natural homes.
Regarding you implying big cats descended from wild animals are no different in their circus situation from our domestic cats/dogs
in our home because the wildness is bred out -- I ask as once before , why are the circus/zoos so careful about security then, why cant we closely associate with the lions and tigers?

In fact, I would argue that the Circus animals themselves could potentially perish if released into their natural homes, as they would lack the necessary skills for survival!

I agree with you there in most instances. Thats why circus animals would if circuses finished, have to be absorbed into a semi wild environment like a safari park , and then hopefully circuses would not be replenished with animal acts and could concentrate on admirable skills like the circus soleil.

Venice, empty your in box.

No, Zoos and Safari Parks under achieve in that respect i do agree. And with evidence of culling for no specific reason from these "Businesses", I would potentially fear for the life of these circus animals if they were placed into further captivity. With a lack of social life, they would either be placed into solitary confinement, potentially injured whilst mixing with others of the same breed, or the easier option, culled. So in that respect, I truly believe the lesser of 2 evils to be the Circus, where the livelihood of these people rests solely on the wellfare and care of these animals.

The Circus animals are what, 3 generations in captivity I think I read somewhere? Maybe not enough to initiate them into our homes, although there are many examples recently of animals similar to these living well amongst others in a home environment. But a lot of work and training would be required. Similar I imagine to the early breeds of dog. Usual dog characteristics have nearly all been bred out of modern breeds, the majority showing and acting like Puppies for their short and innocent lifes. Who is to say that after a number of generations, this could not also become true for large cats?

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Slightly off topic. Chester Zoo voted best in the U.K
http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...st_in_UK_and_sixth_best_in_world/?ref=mr

Best in regards to what exactly? Knowsley Safari park was 8th, which doesnt really fill me with confidence. Profit maybe? Animal welfare, probably not.

Also, I'd just like to point out that trying to use personal insults on the internet, doesn't really help the cause you're fighting for Rudebox.



Personally, I'd like Jehova's witnesses and Cold Callers to go away, but there isn't anything I can do about that unfortunately.

Quote Kreki "I would potentially fear for the life of these circus animals if they were placed into further captivity. With a lack of social life, they would either be placed into solitary confinement, potentially injured whilst mixing with others of the same breed, or the easier option, culled. So in that respect, I truly believe the lesser of 2 evils to be the Circus, where the livelihood of these people rests solely on the wellfare and care of these animals."

What happens to circus animals once they become older, slower, arthritic or unwilling to perform ? Do circus's earn so much they can afford to carry around and feed animals who although comparitively healthy can no longer earn their keep?

Oh, and

quote kreki "Similar I imagine to the early breeds of dog. Usual dog characteristics have nearly all been bred out of modern breeds, the majority showing and acting like Puppies for their short and innocent lifes. Who is to say that after a number of generations, this could not also become true for large cats?


animal circuses have been going for generations and it hasnt happened yet !

Of course not, silly suggestion! Some die of old age/illness. The "Lucky" ones probably get placed into the Zoos which people seem to love and grovel over, but they end up living lives no better than what they were used to. Which is why I am still left wondering why local people here don't travel down to Chester Zoo to Protest. Or maybe jump on a bus and follow the Circus to their next location? Protesting BandWagon maybe?

Difference is, there is actual evidence of Zoos culling the animals as a way to make a profit. Whereas some of the recent articles pointing fingers of animal welfare at Mr Jollies Circus ended up being falsified, as the big cat who died, did so of Cancer. Funny how things can become twisted round to suit the views of the minority.

The Circuses aren't trying to domesticate the animals for their own personal enjoyment. Sounds like scraping of the barrel of your own there Im afraid...