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Originally Posted by venice
Shambo, -- Smashing scenario , but not simple, and most relevent,not immediate. Reminds me of the Irish answer to directions to somewhere

"If I were you I wouldnt start from here"

I see your words have formed a garbled answer, and to me they seem scathing and suggestive of an opposing opinion, yet they don't say what that opinion is... a very political answer.

The way to decrease the number of unemployed is to increase the number of jobs... simply put. If there are not enough people to immediately fill those vacancies then wages will begin to rise which will influence the quality of life... another simple premise.

Creation of new jobs is a skill that has eluded every career politician, of every political flavour, in my lifetime. To the point that to just suggest such an obvious answer seems to elicit your scorn. It's a simple answer that pays no heed to the tenet of the right-wing scoundrel who needs to feel they are better than somebody else, and need to believe the work-shy are holding them back from an idealistic better world, where everybody works hard and holds the same beliefs, if you don't like it then tough, where societys cohesion and strength comes from a strong work ethic, a meritocracy where the clever and hard working rise to the top and cheats never prosper, a proud country, a clean country and.... sorry but it's starting to sound a bit like Mein Kampf. Coincidently that forms part of my own little theory about the correlation between people who are likely to whine about paying taxes which go towards benefits, and those who are likely to get their panties in a bunch about 'bloody muslims' and 'imergrents' (sic). Y'know, the sort of people who start a sentence with "I'm not racist but..." Not mutually exclusive I know but, y'know, I'm just sayin'.

Anyway, the scapegoat of todays whinge du jour happen to be people who will be the least involved in society, those who are most likely to live in the most deprived areas, (such as alot of north Wirral BTW), suffer from ill health, recieve the poorest education and suffer the blight criminal activity. Poverty begats poverty and no amount of posturing about how hard you've had it, or how your grandad used to live in a shoebox and eat cold gravel, will ever change that simple fact. Generation upon generation of wasted potential because capitalism is now the master of society and in order for a few people to get rich, more people have to get poor. To disguise this unpalatable trust requires a scapegoat.

The cherry on this rotten benefit cake is to be tarred by the person who lives next door, their only real difference is that one's employed and the other isn't, who's boring arsed, average excuse for a miserable life is consumed with a hatred that their neighbours are scroungers who hoover up taxes to live an imaginary life of riley. What a waste.

I've rambled, I apologise. Be assured though venice, with comments like yours, nobody could accuse you of being part of a solution.

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Sorry Shambo, you clearly have the best interests of the underprivileged at heart as do I and most folk on Wiki but what you disregard is market forces which are the absolute drivers in world and thus British economy.You mention increasing jobs as an answer but do not say how to increase them.It is no good creating "false" jobs e.g.public sector posts.What is needed is more manufacturing which creates goods for sale abroad.That is where my comment that I do not know how to move the goal posts comes from. China undercuts everything that the western world produces and we face an uphill battle to get back to being a worldwide producer of goods that the rest of the world needs.

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Whoa ! Sorrry Shambo if I offended. Sincerly there was no intention and I most certainly wasnt being scathing. All I meant was the discussion (in my eyes anyway) was about how best to finance welfare claimants right now - whether they should get more, less , at all, etc . As I said at the beginning , your solution is sound and a good long term goal, but it doesnt solve how to deal with todays claimants-and that was the point I was making.
Sorry again if this came over badly .

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Originally Posted by Salmon
...... China undercuts everything that the western world produces.......


No doubt helped in part by the £30m or so that the UK gave them in aid last year! idiot


Sometimes Police Officers give more than just speeding tickets!

It�s hard to be fit as a fiddle when you�re shaped like a cello!
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Originally Posted by Wench
Originally Posted by Salmon
...... China undercuts everything that the western world produces.......


No doubt helped in part by the £30m or so that the UK gave them in aid last year! idiot


Yes indeed but £30m is a drop in the ocean in those sort of finances with the NHS at over £100 billion, sorry I cannot compute those sort of monies.However you are right to highlight the £30m as it would fund the gap in Wirral councils budget spending against income.

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When you add up the amounts given to Kosovo, Iran, Barbados & Russia for example, it all soon adds up. Slightly off topic though perhaps - or is it?


Sometimes Police Officers give more than just speeding tickets!

It�s hard to be fit as a fiddle when you�re shaped like a cello!
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Don't worry venice, it's only the internet. Anyway, most if it wasn't aimed at you because you didn't tell us what your opinion on this matter was!

Salmon. you've just told me that I haven't addressed how to create employment and that manifacturing jobs are needed, without telling me how you think this feat will be achieved yourself. Manifacturing was destroyed in this country by Thatchers move towards a tertiary economy and only now are we as a nation reaping the long term losses. Globalisation has reduced the cost of tech goods imported into the country whilst making home grown manifacturing unviable, (it's even cheaper to ship a television from China to Felixstowe than it is to ship from one side of our county to another). Consuming these low cost imports, and the deliberate overheating of the housing market, has been the fuel for the debt that's kept our economy moving, until a few years ago. Today our omnishambling governments answer to the problem is to reduce public spending and vilify the poor who claim benefits, but we are about to enter a triple dip recession with no manifacturing exports to pull us out of this downwards tailspin. The only stimulus left available is investment in infactructure... but unfortunately most of it's been sold off to the private sector so any investment will be more of a subsidy to the rich at the expense of, you guessed it, the taxpayer, (see british banking system). It's not poor peple who are damaging our society, it's the rich, I'm alright jack so f**k you attitude that allows capitalism to puts profit before people.

I also think you'll find most people on WikiWrral do NOT have the best interests of the underpriviledged at heart, they join this site to have good old moan about benefit cheats, single mums, immigrants, kids today, etc... A bit like the Daily Mail letters page.

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Originally Posted by 24424m
Originally Posted by _Ste_
Keep em on the dole I say, at least then us hard workers don't have to do their job when they get work with us, cos let's face it, they will mess around just to get sacked so they can go back to spending their dole on beers, weed and ciggies whilst sitting on their beanbags watching Jeremy Kyle everyday.
I'm ok and won't have to have any lazy muppets workin with me, but I'm speaking for the rest of you.
You know the score and you know I'm right.

As you were.


Go on then, I'll bite. I don't use this site very often, so am not sure what the title "wiki master" infers, but is this post planted here as a bomb, to try and generate more controversy, and therefore site traffic? I'm genuinely not sure if it is intended to be taken seriously.

I apologize Ste if you were simply playing devil's advocate, or alternatively positively lampooning lazy generalizations.


Sorry, I should of read the first post properly before posting.

I thought this was about Benefit scroungers. There is a difference between them and genuine claimants.
Title should be changed.


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Originally Posted by _Ste_
Originally Posted by 24424m
Originally Posted by _Ste_
Keep em on the dole I say, at least then us hard workers don't have to do their job when they get work with us, cos let's face it, they will mess around just to get sacked so they can go back to spending their dole on beers, weed and ciggies whilst sitting on their beanbags watching Jeremy Kyle everyday.
I'm ok and won't have to have any lazy muppets workin with me, but I'm speaking for the rest of you.
You know the score and you know I'm right.

As you were.


Go on then, I'll bite. I don't use this site very often, so am not sure what the title "wiki master" infers, but is this post planted here as a bomb, to try and generate more controversy, and therefore site traffic? I'm genuinely not sure if it is intended to be taken seriously.

I apologize Ste if you were simply playing devil's advocate, or alternatively positively lampooning lazy generalizations.


Sorry, I should of read the first post properly before posting.

I thought this was about Benefit scroungers. There is a difference between them and genuine claimants.
Title should be changed.


Can you change the title, I don't know how to. Thanks

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I don't think anyone has a gripe against people who genuinely need help, it's those who are taking the pish that get the hackles up. E.g. 2 people, both with mobility cars, pretending they are living seperately but are not so the spare car is given to another family member to use who is at a seperate address.
Bloke A, goes for triple heart bypass and has to sign on for the first time in his life and hasn't much idea of what to do. Goes to the "bru" and meets an old acquaintance there, Bloke B, after exchanging pleasantries Bloke B tells Bloke A to make sure he gets industrial injury benefit because he gets it. Bloke A ask how come because Bloke B has never worked in his life. Bloke B says it doesn't matter he still gets it. Bloke B then tells Bloke A what forms to get (forms expert who knows the whole inventory of forms) and then to return to him for assistance in filling them in. This he does and gets his benefit. Mind you it was industrial injury that caused his problems anyway.
There are loads more. The scroungers leave less in the pot for genuine people who need assistance, simples.


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The title “”Benefit scroungers”””

does that include the OAP;s who receive winter fuel benefit, free tv licence, free bus pass’s.
does it also include the low paid in receipt of housing benefit/council tax benefit, working tax credit,
does it also include people in receipt of child benefit, the middle class, the super rich, the MPs who claimed child benefit ie Mr Osbourne,
these benefits are included in the total expenditure, of the welfare budget
better off MP’s should be stripped of their benefits first - as "we are all in this together" - starting with first class travel and £400+ a week food allowance and housing related allowances.

It is always the sick/disabled, the unemployed classed as BENEFIT SCROUNGERS




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Here,Here. withthat

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Originally Posted by rottylady
The title “”Benefit scroungers”””

does that include the OAP;s who receive winter fuel benefit, free tv licence, free bus pass’s.
does it also include the low paid in receipt of housing benefit/council tax benefit, working tax credit,
does it also include people in receipt of child benefit, the middle class, the super rich, the MPs who claimed child benefit ie Mr Osbourne,
these benefits are included in the total expenditure, of the welfare budget
better off MP’s should be stripped of their benefits first - as "we are all in this together" - starting with first class travel and £400+ a week food allowance and housing related allowances.

It is always the sick/disabled, the unemployed classed as BENEFIT SCROUNGERS





I've worked all my life and any benefits I receive, im entitled to as I've paid into the pot all of my life, I get a good pension and I'm very proud of my life achievements. The benefit system is there to help people who need it but unfortunately there are just too many who abuse the system and basically take the piss out of honest tax payers.

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Well good for you that you've grasped the oppertunities for you to have worked all your life, got a good pension and been pround of your life achievements, but if that's an excuse to be smug faced and slate people who are on benefits maybe, through no fault of there own , shame on you. Don't tar everyone on Benefits with the same brush, that just makes you look like an ar se.

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I came across this comment in the guardian today, sums up Osbourne so accurate
George s story:
"When young George was about six years old, he was made the wealthy master of a hatchet of which, like most little boys, he was extremely fond. He went about chopping everything that came his way.
One day, as he wandered about the garden amusing himself by hacking his mother's pea sticks (and pulling the legs off insects), he found a beautiful, young English cherry tree, of which his father was most proud. He struck the edge of his hatchet on the trunk of the tree and cut the bark it so that it died.
Some time after this, his father discovered what had happened to his favorite tree.
Just then George, with his little hatchet, came into the room.
"George,'' said his father, "do you know who has killed my beautiful little cherry tree yonder in the garden?
"Father, I cannot tell a lie, said the lying little shit as if butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. It was Gordon Brown...and the civil service bureaucrats…and the public sector…and the
o and the banks…and the wrong kind of snow...and employment tribunals…and trade unions…and energy prices…and the royal wedding...and the extra bank holiday…and the Eurozone...but it definitely wasn't me"
"Well George, you are a mendacious little Grrr, aren’t you" said his father, relieving him of his hatchet. “I would ask you to grow me another tree but I don't think you know the first thing about growth. In fact, I don't think you could grow anything even if I gave you a fistful of seeds and a sack full of horseshit…now, fook off out of my sight”"


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