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#671913 - 1st Mar 2012 8:38pm borough road
chris58 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 15th Mar 2009
Posts: 309
Loc: chris58
photo of borough road where bus stops and back of netto is now. hope quality ok.


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DSCF1477.JPG



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#671919 - 1st Mar 2012 8:50pm Re: borough road [Re: chris58]
lauralou2 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 3rd Sep 2011
Posts: 389
Loc: wallasey
wow thats fantastic love seeing old fotos of wirral!
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#671929 - 1st Mar 2012 9:12pm Re: borough road [Re: chris58]
yoller Online   content
Smartchild

Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 479
Loc: Cheshire
Interestingly, that old picture of Borough Road was taken from almost the same location as this later photo (seen on previous threads). You can see the Pykes advert on the gable end wall in both pictures.


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#671965 - 1st Mar 2012 10:48pm Re: borough road [Re: yoller]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
chris 58's picture, which seems to be 1906, is interesting as it seems to show the double tram track changing to single track between Whetstone Lane and Vincent St. (Or is it just that the tracks move closer together).
On the 1912 OS map, it shows it double all the way.
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#672176 - 2nd Mar 2012 5:56pm Re: borough road [Re: chris58]
Norton Online   Reading

Smartchild

Registered: 29th Sep 2011
Posts: 637
Loc: Wallasey
Great finding that photo. Any chance of a better copy?

The original tram track on this section of Borough Rd was single track. A passing loop was suggested in Borough Rd, but this was not built as there were plans to build a new sewer along the road.

In an effort to improve services and to better serve Charing Cross and Central Station, a complicated routing was devised which became operational in February 1903. This involved one-way working on certain sections of track, which would reverse direction, depending upon the route and the time of day. Part of this route included the section of track along Whetstone Lane to Charing Cross.

The sewer was not completed until May 1906. The tram track was re-laid as a double track, and services re-commenced in August that year. The routes were revised, thus eliminating the complicated workings of 1903, and the Whetstone Lane section of single track was no longer in regular use.

Note. Only powers granted by Acts of Parliament gave undertakings the permission needed lay tram tracks, and then only as specified in the Act. No specific powere were granted for the short single line between Claughton Rd and Borough Rd via Exmouth St, Atherton St, Charing Cross and Whetstone Lane. This was explained to the Board of Trade inspecting officers as a temporary line built under powers in the 1899 Act to lay lines in adjacent streets when major road works were underway.

All the above based on the works of T B Maund & M Jenkins in their book 'The Tramways of Birkenhead and Wallasey'. Published in 1987 and well worth a read.

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#672508 - 3rd Mar 2012 5:30pm Re: borough road [Re: chris58]
chris58 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 15th Mar 2009
Posts: 309
Loc: chris58
Sorry not good copy I took a photo of a photo I have. Don't possess a scanner. The photo with the bus stop on is great, my nans house was right on the bus stop. It was demolished in the early 70's. Great childhood memories

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#673087 - 5th Mar 2012 1:14pm Re: borough road [Re: Norton]
marty99fred Offline

Smartchild

Registered: 11th Mar 2009
Posts: 470
Loc: Pensby
What Maund & Jenkins say is a bit puzzling, as the 1899 Edition OS clearly shows double track all the way along Borough Road as far as Prenton Road West, with the exception of two short stretches of single track between Elmswood Road and North Road, either side of the old Tramway Stables. I think the one-way working system must have been introduced in February 1903 precisely because of the Grange Vale Sewer works, which would have necessitated long sections of one side of Borough Road being dug up; temporary points would presumably have been laid to convert the section of tramway adjoining the roadworks to a single line for the duration.

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#673103 - 5th Mar 2012 1:53pm Re: borough road [Re: marty99fred]
Norton Online   Reading

Smartchild

Registered: 29th Sep 2011
Posts: 637
Loc: Wallasey
I absolutely agree.

I found it confusing as well - and I used their book as a reference when I wrote it, as they are prety authorative, as are the OS.
In order to assist in this theory, I think a good look at photographs of Borough Rd are needed, to see where the manhole covers are. Normally they are directly over the sewer pipe, down the centre of the road. This would affect both tracks. However, if the sewer were laid under the southernmost (or outbound) tracks, then there would be a line of manhole covers on that part of the road.
There is another topic on this site which indicates that access to a deep sewer can be stepped via an underground chamber.
A bit more digging required...

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#673257 - 5th Mar 2012 11:08pm Re: borough road [Re: Norton]
marty99fred Offline

Smartchild

Registered: 11th Mar 2009
Posts: 470
Loc: Pensby
I've seen a few photos of the works for the Borough Road Sewer and the excavations, as far as I recall, always seemed to be on the south (outbound) side of the road. Of course, things have been complicated now by the fact that Borough Road has been widened in so many places that the sewer probably does now run beneath the centre of the road for much of its length!

The only photo I have of the sewer works is this one, dated 9/5/1905, which merely adds to the puzzle, as it shows the stretch from Whetstone Lane eastwards with a single line track and a single overhead wire, contrary to what's on the 1899 OS map. Chris's 1906 photo, on the other hand, clearly shows a double track with traction poles on both sides of the road. Given the dates of the two photos, perhaps Chris's actually shows the conversion to double track following the completion of the sewer works, and the 1899 OS map is simply wrong?


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Borough Road 9-5-1905.jpg



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#675992 - 14th Mar 2012 2:31pm Re: borough road [Re: chris58]
Norton Online   Reading

Smartchild

Registered: 29th Sep 2011
Posts: 637
Loc: Wallasey
The 1899 map isn't wrong - it is showing the horsedrawn routes, some of which were abandoned when the tramways were electrified in 1901. The tracks had to be re-laid in heavier guage rails due to the weight of the new trams (about 12 tons) and they also had to be electrically bonded to ensure a good earth return for the power.
It seems that not all of the old twin tracks were relaid as twin initially - this section of Borough Rd included, as we have seen above. Having re-read the 'The Tramways of Birkenhead and Wallasey', plus other material, I still can't get an exact year. 1906 crops up a few times (along with the sewer works) as does 1907, but all alterations seem to have been completed by 1910. A look at the 1912 OS Godfry Edition confirms this.
In the ?1905 photo (marked negative 1906)there are two workmen at the edge of the kerb, in a ditch that only comes part way up their chest. To me, this suggests that the work they were doing was on the kerbside gulleys, and by the way supplies of granite sets are piled on the pavement, the seem to be working towards Central Station.
The tramline itself is in the right place for an inbound track to be, as single stretches were uaually in the middle of the road. if you look carefully between the two workmen standing by the watchman's hut, you can see a tram in the distance.
I'm puzzled by the overhead wiring. It has two parallel spans of wire when only one is needed. Other photo's confirm that this arrangement was used on twin track routes fed from side poles, e.g. on New Chester Road. It appears that one or two extra poles were added on the other side of the road in the area of this bend, at a later date. They are in the first sephia picture from 1906 and judging by the style of the lamp-posts in the second picture from 1954, supplied by yoller, thay were still there then. In other words, they had not been yet erected in the 1905. (n.b. Anybody else spotted the man sitting backwards out of a bedroom window? He could be cleaning the windows.)

I've tried to clean-up the sephia photo that this post started with, until we can get a good scan arranged. My revised version is attached.

As the post is about Borough Rd and not all about the trams, I've added a couple of 'then and now' of my own, this time looking up the same section of road. Although the kerb might be concrete these days, it doesn't move far from the original line of granite on the north side (excluding bus stops). Rather interestingly, at almost exactly the same spot where a tram pole stood on the corner of a street, there is now a modern lighting post.
The top ends of Vincent St and Horatio Streets are still there. The next on along was Coburg St, which is now carrying the name of Sailsbury St (which ran into it) and is the entrance and exit to the car park, with traffic lights. Gomer St and Stafford St might have been consumed by the Pyramids, but their junctions with Borough Rd seem to co-incide with the start and end of the double bus stop. There were only two terraces six small houses each, along Borough Rd, between each of these three streets, and we still have the lamp posts.
The entrance to the underground loading bay is located where Huskisson St stood, and the exit is at Austin St. Austin St is still there, although rather changed. It runs from the steps on Borough Rd, past the bank, past Home & Bargain to the open square by the Convent.
Between them there was Nelson St and its junction with Sussex St. The location of their junction can be identified as being at the start of the tunnel flyover ramp, the junction of the former Littlewoods and TJ's stores, the start of another bus stop, and of course, a lamp post.
Enough typing, so enjoy the pictures...


Attachments: Viewing Permissions May Apply. Click Me
BoroughRd 1906drw.jpg

Description: The re-worked 1906 picture.

A4CFBd08WDa.jpg

Description: The re-worked 1906 picture.

IMG_1567rw.jpg

Description: Borough Rd from Gomer St to Whetstone Lane. 1967.




Edited by Norton (14th Mar 2012 2:33pm)
Edit Reason: Wrong caption, can't change it.

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#676214 - 15th Mar 2012 11:17am Re: borough road [Re: Norton]
marty99fred Offline

Smartchild

Registered: 11th Mar 2009
Posts: 470
Loc: Pensby
Originally Posted By: Norton
In the ?1905 photo (marked negative 1906)there are two workmen at the edge of the kerb, in a ditch that only comes part way up their chest. To me, this suggests that the work they were doing was on the kerbside gulleys, and by the way supplies of granite sets are piled on the pavement, the seem to be working towards Central Station...

(n.b. Anybody else spotted the man sitting backwards out of a bedroom window? He could be cleaning the windows.)


Although its not legible in the version I've posted the 1905 photo is quite clearly labelled on the sign resting on the pile of setts "Borough Road Sewer 9-5-1905", though it's perfectly possible that they were just finishing off the job by working on the connections to the gullies.

Also, the 'man' cleaning the windows is actually a woman, standing on top of the bay window below; she has presumably climbed out of the upstairs window to clean the outside as there's no sign of a ladder, and I doubt whetther she could have climbed one in such a long skirt...

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#676220 - 15th Mar 2012 11:36am Re: borough road [Re: marty99fred]
Roslynmuse Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 25th Jan 2010
Posts: 168
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: marty99fred
Originally Posted By: Norton


(n.b. Anybody else spotted the man sitting backwards out of a bedroom window? He could be cleaning the windows.)




Also, the 'man' cleaning the windows is actually a woman, standing on top of the bay window below; she has presumably climbed out of the upstairs window to clean the outside as there's no sign of a ladder, and I doubt whetther she could have climbed one in such a long skirt...


Creepy!

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#676245 - 15th Mar 2012 1:40pm Re: borough road [Re: marty99fred]
Norton Online   Reading

Smartchild

Registered: 29th Sep 2011
Posts: 637
Loc: Wallasey
Thanks for that, marty99fred. I did notice the photographers board leaning against the stack of sets, and that it was very similar to the other one - but I couldn't read the date.
So, working on that basis that the photo dates are correct, then they must have decided to add a few extra stay poles on the south side within that time, extending at least as far as Fernlea Road. They should have survived until phase 2 of the road widening, in about 1974.
Note that a number of the poles are fed by overhead cable, in clusters, suggesting that only one pole in the group had the lighting controls in it, probably indicated by the large box about its base.
Spot on about the woman cleaning the windows. How strange. At first I thought it was a bloke, because that was how some people did it - you sat on the windowsill backwards and pulled the panels up and down to reach the glass. It was a method that I was shown (and did once or twice) but have not passed on to the children!
Thanks for your photo's - sorry I got the captions wrong on mine, but you can't re-edit that bit.

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