WikiWirral values you and your opinion.
Forum Statistics
Forums65
Topics76,352
Posts1,033,281
Members14,560
Most Online16,551
Feb 2nd, 2024
Who's Online Now
7 members (3 invisible), 8,860 guests, and 434 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters
sunnyside 45,164
MattLFC 22,315
Mark 21,269
granny 17,788
_Ste_ 16,345
Newest Members
Kalena1962, rattus, Lisrush, Emotecreative, ArranGirl13
14,560 Registered Users
New General Forums
New Wirral History
Tall Brick Chimneys
by diggingdeeper - 16th Mar 2024 11:56am
D.I.Y. / Building Shop
by mharford91 - 3rd Mar 2024 8:53pm
Old Hall in Higher Bebington
by Rhoobarb - 25th May 2010 5:55pm
Oleo Works
by Ducko - 14th May 2008 3:09pm
Top Posters(30 Days)
granny 14
casper 13
bri445 4
Topic Replies
What song are you listening to?
by diggingdeeper - 28th Mar 2024 6:06pm
Facial recognition coming in supermarkets?
by diggingdeeper - 27th Mar 2024 3:50pm
Bolts at Bebington Road
by diggingdeeper - 27th Mar 2024 2:33am
Hot Spot Chippie Broadway
by Excoriator - 26th Mar 2024 7:57pm
Tall Brick Chimneys
by diggingdeeper - 26th Mar 2024 5:43pm
Lost river (Well, brook really)
by diggingdeeper - 26th Mar 2024 3:09am
Old Hall in Higher Bebington
by diggingdeeper - 24th Mar 2024 5:58pm
Netflix 3 Body Problem.
by BultacoAstro - 22nd Mar 2024 8:04am
Wisper electric bike. 36v .
by Dilly - 21st Mar 2024 7:36pm
March
M T W T F S S
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
cools 1
Kylix 1
Top Likes Received
bert1 14
Mark 4
granny 3
casper 3
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 145
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 145
Excellent work, Derek.Interesting to see that the population actually fell between 1931 and 1948.Maybe the war could have accounted for this or any change in town/district boundaries.

Google Ads
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 376
Likes: 1
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 376
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by derekdwc
So Flaybrick quarry maybe started 1847 or earlier


Much earlier, derek. Article from an old Wirral Journal by Roger Jermy which is interesting also for its references to old farms and owners:

"At various times both the Birkenhead & Chester Railway and the Storeton Tramway have been suggested as the first lines of rail in the Wirral peninsula. Documentary evidence shows however that these lines, opened in 1840 and 1838 respectively, were laid at least twenty years after the construction of a small line linking quarries on the side of Flaybrick Hill, Birkenhead, with the south-west side of Wallasey Pool.

The exact date of opening of the line appears not to have been recorded. Clues are provided by inspection of early nineteenth century maps of Wirral. Farey's 1808 map ( included in Holland's treatise 'A General View of the Agriculture of Cheshire') does not indicate the line but it is identified by the single word 'Railway' on Greenwood's Map of the County Palatine of Chester dated 1819. It is first shown in greater detail on Lawton's Map of Birkenhead dated 1824. This was surveyed by William Lawton in May 1823. Lawton was the Land Agent for the owner of the Birkenhead Estate, Mr Francis Richard Price, who lived in Overton-on-Dee. It was this same Lawton who was to promote the career of Thomas Brassey by placing him in charge of his Birkenhead office around this time.

Lawton's map indicates that the Tramway commenced in a quarry on the 23 acre Flaybrick Hill Common. This was rented from Price by one Joseph Nichols of Bridge End Farm. This farm consisted of low-lying marshy land close to where the Wallasey Pool joined the River Mersey and included fields known as 'Seven acres marsh' and Slutchy field'! The Flaybrick Quarry was thus over a mile away from most of Nichols' land. From the Quarry the line is shown as heading in a north-easterly direction for some 1250 yards and terminating at Wallasey Pool. Close to the Quarry the line ran adjacent to the small 2 acre croft of Daniel Smith and then descended through the quaintly named fields of another of Price's tenants, Thomas Davies: 'Rye grass field', 'Moss Hay', 'Moss meadow', 'Gill field meadow', 'Moss' and `Between Cop and River'. The lower sections of the line were clearly low-lying and wet! Indeed Greenwood's map marks the area im¬mediately to the north-west of the line as being a saltmarsh! These details allow the inference that the line must have been of relatively lightweight construction; it is a shame that details of gauge and track type have not been recorded. Presumably the word 'Cop' appearing in the final field name is a reference to a flood bank, being derived from the old-English word 'Copp' or 'Cop' meaning a hillock or mound.

At the lower terminus of the line there would appear to have been some sort of small yard with a fan of trackways, possibly indicating the location of a storage area. This yard reached some way below the point reached by spring tides and close to the point at which there was 'permanent water'.

As J E Allison suggests in his book 'Sidelights on Tranmere' the line's owner, Nichols, presumably operated the Quarries to supplement the income from his poor farming land. Bearing in mind the state of the local roads at the time the combination of tramway plus river barge must have been a reasonable solution to the problem of stone transport. The Quarries were located about 100 feet higher than the edge of Wallasey Pool which would have produced an average gradient on the line of about 1 in 35. Thus gravity could have been used for the movement of loaded vehicles but horses would presumably have been necessary to return the ‘empties' back to the Quarry.

The stone from the Quarries was a comparatively soft Upper Bunter sandstone, though lying close to the harder Keuper beds which were quarried at Storeton and elsewhere. It did not make top class building stone and Hewitt(in his 'Rise of Industry in Wirra'l) refers to It being used '... for the construction of the walls of Birkenhead Docks behind the granite facing...' i.e. as infill material. In view of the land drainage, raising of land levels and rapid development of both Birkenhead and Liverpool at this time it no doubt found uses on both sides of the Mersey.

The line appears, once again marked 'Railway', on the 1st Edition Ordnance Survey Maps of 1840 but is marked 'Old Railway' on J M Rendel's Plan of the Floating Dock and other works connected therewith proposed to be made at Wallasey Pool, Birkenhead. This plan, dated 1843, indicates the projected lines of roads and other works associated with the development of the south side of what is now the West Float and involves the Tramway land. It is tempting to assume that the line ceased operations around this time; it is not identified on later maps. Certainly the cessation of dock construction in Birkenhead between 1847 and 1857 would have reduced the local demand for low quality 'infill' stone, and the quarries at Storeton, with ready access to both the River Mersey and (from 1847) the developing national rail network, were able to satisfy building needs at the time. The fate of its rails and wagons is not recorded.

Today few traces of the enterprise exist. The Quarries remain of course, but in a new guise, having been opened as Flaybrick Cemetery in 1864. The route of the tramway may well have established the line of the lower part of Tollemache Road but it then disappears beneath St James' Church (opened in 1858). Its continuation crossed the line of the present day electrified railway close to Birkenhead North Station before heading for the waterside on an alignment close to the present Wharf Road. No remains are visible along this length."



From another source it appears that he quarry was closed in 1831 when siltation had made access to the head of the Pool impossible, but it was reopened by the then owner James Tomkinson in 1844 when he was selected as the contractor for the construction of the Birkenhead Docks. Jermyn is wrong when he indicates that the Quarry is now the cemetery - only as small part was used. There is an excellent wiki topic by diggingdeeper which shows progressive maps of the area at: https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/333128/Flaybrick_Hill_1815_2008.html


Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Excellent contribution Mr.Nightwalker!

You might be interested to know that a few months after Roger Jermy's original article in 'The Wirral Journal' of Spring 1984, there was a letter submitted to the journal by Cliff Thornton (the then curator of the Williamson Art Gallery & Museum) stating that evidence from the minutes of Birkenhead's Road & Improvement Committee indicated that the tramway was still in use until at least 1866.

If you've got the full set of Wirral Journals, see the Autumn edition for 1984. thumbsup




Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195

withthat


...recommend derek should go look through those minute books. The Birkenhead Improvement Commissioners will have everything written down about why & when the various roads were built, etc.


Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Forum Veteran
OP Online Content
Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Excellent reports nightwalker, thank you

Originally Posted by geekus

withthat


...recommend derek should go look through those minute books. The Birkenhead Improvement Commissioners will have everything written down about why & when the various roads were built, etc.



Hoping to go to the Archives next week - will the above docs be there?


Another query I'm asking is
Where did folks 1821 to later get their water to drink from until they built a proper means of supply
Streams, rivers or lots of wells sunk all over?

Last edited by derekdwc; 24th Apr 2011 8:27pm.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,344
Likes: 19
Wiki Master
Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,344
Likes: 19
good topic guys thumbsup


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

https://ddue.uk
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Forum Veteran
OP Online Content
Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
good topic guys thumbsup


come on in, pull up a chair and enlighten us DD

SOME 1843 Streets - noticed no roads
Abbey street
Adelphi street
Albion street
Argyle street
Back Chester street
Brandon terrace
Bridge street
Brook street
Camden street
Canning street
Cathcart street
Chapel street
Chester street
Chester street South
Church street
Claughton firs
Claughton road
Cleveland street
Clifton Park
Conduit street.
Duncan street
George street
German terrace
Grange lane
Grange lane
Grange street
Hamilton square
Hamilton street
Hemlingford terrace
Holt Hill
Ivy street
Leicester terrace
Limekiln lane, Rock lane
Lord street
Lower Ivy street
Market street
Mersey terrace,
Moore terrace, Grange lane

Neptune street
Old Grange lane
Oliver street
Parkfield
Park street
Park view, Park street
Portland place, Bridgestreet
Price street
Priory street
Queen street
REDCROSS STREET,
Rosebrae
Russell street
Sandford street
Somerville street
Sydney street
Tarleton street.
Thomas street
Waterloo place
Watson street
Wellington terrace
Westminster buildings
Wood street

Last edited by derekdwc; 24th Apr 2011 9:30pm.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,627
Likes: 14
Wiki Veteran
Offline
Wiki Veteran
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,627
Likes: 14
Birkenhead, The Background.

Attached Images
b1.JPG (821.22 KB, 239 downloads)
b2.JPG (960.31 KB, 238 downloads)
b3.JPG (989.98 KB, 241 downloads)
b4.JPG (937.34 KB, 243 downloads)
b5.JPG (887.94 KB, 247 downloads)
b6.JPG (772.54 KB, 242 downloads)

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Great stuff, bert. Plenty of interest in there.

And in response to derek's earlier question, yes, the minute books for the Birkenhead Improvements Committee should be at the Wirral Archives. Don't expect to be able to read it all in just one visit though!



Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Forum Veteran
OP Online Content
Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
some street maps 1824, 1835,1844 and present day goolemap
Hopefully someone can supply a more legible 1844 as I can't work out which way it should be, looks a bit like cleveland st running towards Birkenhead Pool?
Anyone got a 1934 BENNETON map covering a larger area I could have copy of please ( if yea pm me}

Attached Images
1824 bhead.jpg (306.65 KB, 208 downloads)
1824
1835_8lt_Bennison.jpg (294.53 KB, 205 downloads)
1835
1844 Birkenhead1844 [1600x1200].JPG (103.3 KB, 205 downloads)
1844
2011 modern compare Benneson 1834.jpg (334 KB, 205 downloads)
googlemap
Last edited by derekdwc; 25th Apr 2011 1:00pm.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Forum Veteran
OP Online Content
Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
source



old wirral - quarries

Tranmere's rocky foundation is made from Triassic sandstone, which in the township is relatively free from
pebbles. It has been extensively quarried although now all of them are completely sealed and built over.

There were once seven quarries in the township, two in the village, one in Quarry Bank just off Whetstone
Lane, and four abutting the northern half of Old Chester Road. There main advantage, and one which persisted for many centuries, was the fact that the sandstone is both sponge and filter, holding an abundant supply of pure water readily accessible by the sinking of shallow wells.

As a quarrying centre Hinderton or Lower Tranmere, had real advantages. In the 1840's there were four quarries nearby, and at least one had by that time been worked to a depth of over 50 feet and a vast amount of stone removed. The Bunter sandstone here is hard and almost free from pebbles andthe location of the quarries on a slope must have reduced the chance of flooded workings. Stone had always been costly to move about, especially by road and rail so that Hinderton quarries, conveniently close to a ferry had a great advantage over quarries situated further inland, Given reasonably good river transport they could have supplied better than any other workings on Merseyside, facing or interior rubble for early dock walls, the stone for ferry slipways and house building. Thomas Brassey, the constructor of
New Chester Road, paid rates for Tranmere quarries in the 1830's. The quarries were sealed up in the 20th century and now lie buried beneath urban developments.


Attached Images
quarry_sketch2-692x408.jpg (60.8 KB, 168 downloads)
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Forum Veteran
OP Online Content
Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Just re-read berts' post 507712 - first couple paragraphs and
wondered whether the stream/river we think of as being
'The Happy Valley' or 'Rubicon' may have originally been called
'Birken' or 'Birket' running into Berken Pool
(Birkenhead Pool/Tranmere Pool)

Last edited by derekdwc; 28th Apr 2011 11:05am.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,344
Likes: 19
Wiki Master
Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,344
Likes: 19
There is a great site HERE about Wirral streams etc. It has some rare pictures of the entrance to the great culvert.


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

https://ddue.uk
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,627
Likes: 14
Wiki Veteran
Offline
Wiki Veteran
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,627
Likes: 14
Originally Posted by derekdwc
Just re-read berts' post 507712 - first couple paragraphs and
wondered whether the stream/river we think of as being
'The Happy Valley' or 'Rubicon' may have originally been called
'Birken' or 'Birket' running into Berken Pool
(Birkenhead Pool/Tranmere Pool)


I have always thought the Birket started at Tranmere Pool (Lairds basin) and headed up towards Wallasey pool and beyond, reading recently it passed the Castle Hotel and on towards Central Station, The map below perhaps shows some of it.

Attached Images
1656.JPG (133.14 KB, 138 downloads)

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
If 'red' marks the spot, isn't that a bit too far away from either Tranmere Pool or Birkenhead Central? This bit of Thomas Taylor's map shows Bidston Marsh and is near to Wallasey Village.

Great map though! Just a shame the original survey didn't include more of the Birkenhead area.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Mod 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Facial recognition coming in supermarkets?
by Excoriator - 27th Mar 2024 10:52am
Hot Spot Chippie Broadway
by Excoriator - 26th Mar 2024 7:57pm
Bolts at Bebington Road
by Excoriator - 23rd Mar 2024 9:48am
Netflix 3 Body Problem.
by BultacoAstro - 22nd Mar 2024 8:04am
Tall Brick Chimneys
by diggingdeeper - 16th Mar 2024 11:56am
For Sale & Free
Wisper electric bike. 36v .
by Dilly - 21st Mar 2024 7:36pm
This is Elvis
by GingerTom - 17th Mar 2024 2:37pm
Member Spotlight
TheComputerLab
TheComputerLab
Wallasey
Posts: 1,315
Joined: May 2011
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
New Wirral Info
Facial recognition coming in supermarkets?
by Excoriator - 27th Mar 2024 10:52am
Hot Spot Chippie Broadway
by Excoriator - 26th Mar 2024 7:57pm
Bolts at Bebington Road
by Excoriator - 23rd Mar 2024 9:48am
Get your Money Tree ready
by keef666 - 22nd Mar 2023 12:27pm
Restaurant/pub with outdoor seating - Bromborough
by CarterUSM - 7th Aug 2020 7:59pm
News : New Topics
Gaza
by diggingdeeper - 29th Oct 2023 9:28am
Lost river (Well, brook really)
by Excoriator - 10th Sep 2019 8:50am
New Enthusiast Forums
Netflix 3 Body Problem.
by BultacoAstro - 22nd Mar 2024 8:04am
Xbox
by TudorBlue - 3rd Mar 2024 8:48pm
What song are you listening to?
by - 24th Jun 2007 9:06am
Popular Topics(Views)
5,069,785 WIKI WALK CHAT
4,013,898 Spotted!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5