Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions

I have to say, 7 hours is longer than even I expceted but doesn't surprise me. Indeed, the loco would have to change ends at Chester, I'd forgotten about that. The modern-day train from Holyhead to Cardiff (or Maesteg) also has to do that as it comes in off the North Wales coast line and then back onto the Wrexham, Shrewsbury line.

I've been following some of the original Birkenhead-Paddington route on my travels over the summer. I took some photos at Ruabon and then at Shrewsbury. A few weeks back I was at Snow Hill (en route to Stratford upon Avon).

I've also done the route from Marylebone to Moor street and I know that Chiltern railways do run an occasional service into Paddington in order to keep drivers famililir with the route.

I'm wondering if the Birkenhead services did take the Chiltern main line, south of Birmingham.

I went to RAF Cosford recently and there is a large map of GWR services there and has Birkenhead Woodside at the end of the main line going all the way to London - it's intersting to see it, I just can't recall the part of it south of Birmingham i.e. which way it went.

Yes I'm sure you are right, as fascinitaing as it is, it seems that have created a thread of chaos here.



That's interesting, I didn't realise there were also stopping restrictions within the Wirral itself.

I was also thinking along the lines that transport companies could not operate outside their own jurisdiction etc.. Also, what you mention about competition with other modes of transport makes sense.

I guess many on here will remember sometime after deregulation, when some Mersyside bus company encroached into Greater Manchester. In return, the Manchester company put on loads of "number 10" buses on the Birkenhead/Wallasey route in the original Birkenhead Corporation blue livery.

There were that many of them operating for a while, many of them were almost empty.

Then later, there was some sort of truce, and they withdrew all of those buses.

Also, Re: Hedd Wynn, I'll certainly have to watch that one sometime.

Haven't got the copies to hand, but I have two books on the Woodside - Paddington expresses. If you can locate a copy they may be of interest?

Paddington to the Mersey: G.W.R's Forgotten Route from London to Birkenhead by R.Preston Hendry
ISBN-13: 978-0860934424

Sorry, don't know if it's still in print but I know Leamington Spa and Brimingham Snow Hill get some coverage in it - copies are sometimes on Ebay. Failing that the library might be able to help.

The other book was printed by the Great Western Railway and was one of their 'From the Carriage Window' series - again ebay or the library might be the best bet.

Cheers

Little bit more on Birkenheads Eisteddfods

Despite being in England, Birkenhead (known as Penbedw, in the Welsh language) hosted Wales' National Eisteddfod in 1917[27] as well as an unofficial National Eisteddfod event in 1879. As in Liverpool,[28] migrants from Wales, especially north Wales, contributed greatly to the growth of the town and its cultural development in the 19th century. The first local Birkenhead Eisteddfod, a precursor of the national events, took place in 1864.[29] The 1917 National Eisteddfod was notable for the award of the chair to the poet Ellis Humphrey Evans, known as Hedd Wyn. The winner was announced, and the crowd waited for the winner to accept congratulations before the chairing ceremony, but no winner appeared. It was then announced that Hedd Wyn had been killed the previous month on the battlefield in Belgium, and the bardic chair was draped in black. These events were portrayed in the Academy Award nominated film Hedd Wyn, and were apparently intended as a protest against the war policies of Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who was present. There is a commemorative stone for the event in Birkenhead Park.[30] The first meeting of the international Celtic Congress also took place at the Birkenhead Eisteddfod.[31]

The stopping journey from Paddington to Woodside, as stated above, took about seven hours, but there was an express from Paddington at 9:10am which arrived at Woodside at 1:57pm.

The time table list the route as:

London (Paddington), Ealing (Broadway), Reading, Didcot, Culham, Radley, Oxford, Wolvercot Halt, Kidlington, Bletchingham, Heyford, Fritwell, Aynho, King's Sutton, Banbury, Cropredy, Fenny Compton, Southham Road, Leamington, Warwick, Hatton, Lapworth, Knowle, Widney Manor, Solihul, Olton, Acock's Gree, Tyseley, Small Heath, Bordesley, Birmingham (Moor St), Birmingham (Snow Hill), Hockley, Handsworth, West Bromwich, Swan Village, Wednesbury, Bradley, Bilston, Priestfield, Wolverhampton (Low Level), Dunstall Park, Codsall, Albrighton, Shifnal, Oakengates, Wellington, Admaston, Walcot, Upton Magna, Shrewsbury, Leaton, Baschurch, Rednal, Whittington, Gobowen, Preesegweene, Cefn, Rhosymedre Halt, Ruabon, Johnstown, Wrexham, Gresford, Rossett, Balderton, Saltney, Chester, Birkenhead (Woodside).

Bit on where Wirral ends and what it includes here

Crosville buses were only allowed to pick up passengers within the Birkenhead Corporation Area when travelling out of Birkenhead, and were only allowed to set down passengers when travelling into Birkenhead.

As an example, In Claughton Village you could get on the Crosville Bus coming from Park Station, going to West Kirby; but you couldn't get on the bus coming from West Kirby going to Park Station.

and

If you were on the Crosville bus coming from West Kirby you could get off at Claughton Village; but if you were on the bus coming from Park Station, you couldn't get off at Claughton Village.

The Crosville buses used the same bus stops as the Corporation Buses in most cases, but in Claughton Village in the West Kirby direction, they each had their own bus stop (next to each other).

Wow, thanks for that. 4 hours 47 minutes is pretty impressive compared with the Lime St.- Euston time. A couple of points from that route are interesting. First, considering all the tiny stations listed, why no mention of the stations between Chester & Birkenhead? Also, the line between Birmingham Snow Hill & Wolverhampton is now the Midland Metro tram system.

Thanks again all for the further info.

To Billy, you've given me a reason to finally get my library card renewed!

I used to go down there loads and even used to read in there a bit too - thanks to the peace and quiet, but since I've been using the Internet a lot more for reading, I have let my card expire some time ago. Really should sort that out soon and check out that book you mention.

To bert1, that really is very interesting about the Eisteddfodd, the draping of the bardic chair and its significance as an anti-war protest.

To uptoncx, that is a handy working definition of the geographical Wirral peninsula. (Just to clarify I'm not talking about the Metropolitan Borough or the Wirral Hundred, simply the geographical definition of the peninsula) I mean the definition on this post here:- https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums..._railways_of_Wirral_1830.html#Post319720

So, if I assume that "The River Dee" means the present day River Dee as it is now (using the canalised section) then a small part of the geographical Wirral Peninsula is indeed in Flintshire, Wales.

This first came to my attention as I started hiking a bit in that area over the last couple of years, when you come off a footpath onto a road and you start seeing bilingual road signs and Welsh flags flying in people's front gardens, you know you are in Wales. This initially surprised me as I knew I hadn't yet crossed "the blue bridge" over the Dee at that point.

I believe places like "Garden City" are on reclaimed land. As stated I think that the English/Welsh boundary reflects the original course of the River Dee before it silted up, necessitating the building of the canalised section. Although the River has had its course artificially changed, the English/Welsh boundary has remained intact. This is just my theory to be honest, but I always did wonder why a very small section of the south-western corner of the geographical peninsula does seem to be Welsh territory.

As for the Crosville buses, it's funny I really didn't know that. I did use those buses sometimes, but I guess I used the usual Merseybus ones much more in the 80s.

So the old Birkenhead-Paddington route did use some of the Chiltern Main line then (Leamington-Warwick etc). Interesting to see it also used the Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton line via Wellington, I was on that one recently. Think I've now effectively travelled most of the whole route in various different stages, apart from Wolverhampton-Snow Hill as I haven't yet travelled on the Midland Metro, only photographed it. I should do that sometime soon and fill in the gap. Cheers.

Good question, looking at the working timetables for Chester to Birkenhead, all of the Paddington trains are shown as 'express' and don't stop between Chester and Woodside (except that a footnote says that they will "stop at Birkenhead Town, if required to set down passengers booked to the Town Station only").

For completeness, the route from Chester to Birkenhead (from the working timetables) is:

Chester, Upton, Mollington, (Dunkirk), Capenhurst, Ledsham, Hooton, Bromborough, Spital, Port Sunlight, Bebington & New Ferry, Rock Ferry, (Mersey Junction), Green Lane, (Grange Lane), (Blackpool St Junction), Birkenhead Town, Birkenhead Woodside.

I remember when I was at school, pre mobile days, catching the direct train from Bromborough to London direct. This how ever was a special charter by Wirral Grammar. And I remember people collecting train numbers at crewe. lol

There again I collect aircraft numbers but thats for my log book / legal reasons.

Nomad

De-regulation in 1986 brought the bus companies into direct competition with the railway and ferry, wheras previously they ran to places where you 'interchanged' onto each other.

The bus company want the money these days, they dont want you to get off and use another form of transport.

Dont forget that buses, trains and ferries were previous to this managed or owned by the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive ... Crosville, Ribble and Greater Manchester buses ran under agreement with the MPTE and were handsomely remunerated for doing so.

So your special didn't use the GWR route since it went via Crewe. It would have gone into Euston. The line between Chester & Birkenhead was joint GWR/LMS if I remember correctly.

I have an old newspaper somwhere which mentioned an Eisteddfod being held in Liverpool, it went on to say that over 100,000 welsh speakers lived in the surrounding area's !.

I thought the last "offical" steam train to leave from paddington went to birkenhead !.

List of Eisteddfods

National Eisteddfod venues
1861 - Aberdare
1880 - Caernarfon
1881 - Merthyr Tydfil
1882 - Denbigh
1883 - Cardiff
1884 - Liverpool, England
1885 - Aberdare
1886 - Caernarfon
1887 - London, England
1888 - Wrexham
1889 - Brecon
1890 - Bangor
1891 - Swansea
1892 - Rhyl
1893 - Pontypridd
1894 - Caernarfon
1895 - Llanelli
1896 - Llandudno
1897 - Newport
1898 - Blaenau Ffestiniog
1899 - Cardiff
1900 - Liverpool, England
1901 - Merthyr Tydfil
1902 - Bangor
1903 - Llanelli
1904 - Rhyl
1905 - Mountain Ash
1906 - Caernarfon
1907 - Swansea
1908 - Llangollen
1909 - London, England
1910 - Colwyn Bay
1911 - Carmarthen
1912 - Wrexham
1913 - Abergavenny
1914 - Not held
1915 - Bangor
1916 - Aberystwyth
1917 - Birkenhead, England
1918 - Neath
1919 - Corwen
1920 - Barry
1921 - Caernarfon
1922 - Ammanford
1923 - Mold
1924 - Pontypool
1925 - Pwllheli
1926 - Swansea
1927 - Holyhead
1928 - Treorchy
1929 - Liverpool-England
1930 - Llanelli
1931 - Bangor
1932 - Aberavon
1933 - Wrexham
1934 - Neath
1935 - Caernarfon
1936 - Fishguard
1937 - Machynlleth
1938 - Cardiff
1939 - Denbigh
1940 - Eisteddfod Radio, Bangor
1941 - Old Colwyn
1942 - Cardigan
1943 - Bangor
1944 - Llandybie
1945 - Rhosllannerchrugog
1946 - Mountain Ash
1947 - Colwyn Bay

1948 - Bridgend
1949 - Dolgellau
1950 - Caerphilly
1951 - Llanrwst
1952 - Aberystwyth
1953 - Rhyl
1954 - Ystradgynlais
1955 - Pwllheli
1956 - Aberdare
1957 - Llangefni
1958 - Ebbw Vale
1959 - Caernarfon
1960 - Cardiff
1961 - Rhosllannerchrugog
1962 - Llanelli
1963 - Llandudno
1964 - Swansea
1965 - Newtown
1966 - Aberavon
1967 - Bala
1968 - Barry
1969 - Flint
1970 - Ammanford
1971 - Bangor
1972 - Haverfordwest
1973 - Ruthin
1974 - Carmarthen
1975 - Criccieth
1976 - Cardigan
1977 - Wrexham
1978 - Cardiff
1979 - Caernarfon
1980 - Gowerton - Lliw Valley
1981 - Machynlleth
1982 - Swansea
1983 - Llangefni
1984 - Lampeter
1985 - Rhyl
1986 - Fishguard
1987 - Porthmadog
1988 - Newport
1989 - Llanrwst
1990 - Rhymney Valley,
1991 - Mold
1992 - Aberystwyth
1993 - Builth Wells
1994 - Neath
1995 - Abergele
1996 - Llandeilo
1997 - Bala
1998 - Pencoed, near Bridgend
1999 - Llanbedrgoch, Anglesey
2000 - Llanelli
2001 - Denbigh
2002 - St David's
2003 - Meifod, near Welshpool
2004 - Newport
2005 - Faenol Estate, near Bangor
2006 - Felindre, Swansea
2007 - Mold
2008 - Cardiff
2009 - Bala
2010 - Blaenau Gwent[1][2][3]
2011 - Wrexham[2]
2012 - Vale of Glamorgan[2]
2013 - Denbighshire[2]
2014 - Carmarthenshire[2]
2015 - Monmouthshire[2]