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#428895 - 3rd Sep 2010 12:46pm Community payback: defended on Merseyside
_jase_
Unregistered


Community payback defended on Merseyside as TV show depicts drug taking ‘holiday camp’



THE man in charge of community payback in Liverpool has defended the practice of making criminals do odd jobs after a Government minister described it as a holiday camp.

A TV documentary aired this week showed young criminals smoking drugs and drinking cups of tea while carrying out community service orders.

Commissioner for Victims Louise Casey, who helped develop the payback scheme, responded by calling it a “holiday camp for offenders” and called for changes in the way it is implemented.


But John Stafford, Chief Executive Officer of the Merseyside Probation Trust, said the region’s 90 payback schemes helped save the community £1.5m every year.

He said: “The Probation Service generally and community payback specifically, deal with some of the most difficult and demanding individuals in our society, and managing them is a major challenge. It is a tribute therefore to the motivational techniques and skills of our staff that we are able to complete the enormous number of projects we take.”

A Tonight investigation showed criminals on community service doing nothing for long periods, being left unsupervised, and even breaking the law by smoking cannabis while serving their sentences.

The footage was filmed over six weeks at projects in Manchester, Nottingham and Derbyshire.

Justice minister Nick Herbert said: “Offending should always have consequences, and those who commit crimes must be punished properly with sentences administered rigorously.

“The scenes in this film where offenders effectively stick two fingers up to the system made me extremely angry.

“There can be no excuses for it. The probation trusts concerned are carrying out disciplinary procedures against a number of staff and the Government expects the necessary action to be taken.”

Earlier this week probation union NOPA revealed that the shooting of a 19-year-old gang member in London was connected with his straying on to rival turf while carrying out payback.

Similar turf based threats have occurred several times on Merseyside during the past 18 months, though no one has been shot at in the city, and have resulted in convicts only being allowed to do payback within their own post codes.

Mr Stafford added: “The majority of offenders subject to community payback complete their orders without any problems. For the minority who fail to comply or who behave inappropriately however, enforcement action is taken and offenders are returned to court. It is very rare however for a project not to be successfully completed.”

A statement issued by the probation service said 75% of people on community payback had not reoffended within two years compared to 29% of those serving jail time.


THE ECHO

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#428898 - 3rd Sep 2010 1:00pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: ]
_Ste_ Offline


Wiki Master

Registered: 7th Aug 2005
Posts: 15995
Loc: New Brighton
That I can quite believe, back in my days of being a tearaway driving with no insurance and banned etc I had to do community service, our officer used to take us in the Pub or to the Offie at dinner then we would be drinking in the summer sun whilst painting.
That's going back Quite a few years.
_________________________


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#428905 - 3rd Sep 2010 1:27pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: _Ste_]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7876
Loc: tranmere
So what turned you into the fine upstanding Gentleman your are today.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

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#428910 - 3rd Sep 2010 1:51pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: bert1]
_Ste_ Offline


Wiki Master

Registered: 7th Aug 2005
Posts: 15995
Loc: New Brighton
Originally Posted By: bert1
So what turned you into the fine upstanding Gentleman your are today.


I decided I couldn't beat the system and passed my test lol.
I grew up a little bit wink
_________________________


http://www.youtube.com/user/stetopop

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#428915 - 3rd Sep 2010 2:32pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: _Ste_]
chev_chelios Offline
Wiki Guide

Registered: 30th Jul 2009
Posts: 5948
Loc: the village of wallasey
I drink loads of tea and sit around doing nothing And get £13ph lol

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#428921 - 3rd Sep 2010 4:13pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: chev_chelios]
GrandMasterFlash Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 12th May 2010
Posts: 2492
Loc: at a computer
I saw this programme yesterday, and it was stupid them all sitting around, but some of them said they want to be doing things because that's what they enjoy and they don't like being bored, which isn't right either, they're not there to enjoy themselves, hmmmmmm.

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#428922 - 3rd Sep 2010 4:16pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: GrandMasterFlash]
_Ste_ Offline


Wiki Master

Registered: 7th Aug 2005
Posts: 15995
Loc: New Brighton
Should make em work in nursing homes cleaning pottys out smile
_________________________


http://www.youtube.com/user/stetopop

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#428923 - 3rd Sep 2010 4:17pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: _Ste_]
GrandMasterFlash Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 12th May 2010
Posts: 2492
Loc: at a computer
Gross...Now that's a good idea! haha

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#428927 - 3rd Sep 2010 4:35pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: _Ste_]
raymondo Offline
Wise One

Registered: 16th Sep 2009
Posts: 806
Loc: upton
Originally Posted By: _Ste_
Originally Posted By: bert1
So what turned you into the fine upstanding Gentleman your are today.


I decided I couldn't beat the system and passed my test lol.
I grew up a little bit wink


yeh me too a copper once told me (pc david alcock 7126 g division)i might have crossed his path once or twice lol that most offenders reach a certain age and stop breaking the law and he was right you carnt beat the law so might as well abide by it (within reason) bowdown busted


Edited by raymondo (3rd Sep 2010 4:37pm)

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#428966 - 3rd Sep 2010 6:49pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: raymondo]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9982
Loc: Birkenhead
If you aren't prepared to throw away the key or execute hardened criminals then you have no choice but to re-rehabilitate them.

These projects are not about punishment, they are about education, some (not all), find they are capable of doing something and may even enjoy it, this is often quite a shock to them after years of negativity thrown in their direction.

Most bad behaviour is learnt and taught by peers and family (and possibly televison etc), people can't do a lot about their environment and some are more gullible than others. They should be given a positive chance to amend their ways and see that there are alternatives.

The rest of them - go back to the first line of my post for a clue imho.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#428975 - 3rd Sep 2010 7:23pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: diggingdeeper]
DavidB Offline
Wiki Guide

Registered: 7th Dec 2003
Posts: 5599
Loc: Bebington, Wirral
I know some kids who are downright vindictive little shites, and I know their parents are the same way - they learn it directly from their parents. If they let them get away with it, they'll try it on, knowing they'll get away with it.
_________________________
"C20 LET bang"

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#428983 - 3rd Sep 2010 7:51pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: DavidB]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9982
Loc: Birkenhead
Has anyone seen the car-repair schemes at work for awkward young lads, the lad's are amazed at what they can do - it is a true revelation for many of them, once they get the bug, they tow the line because they don't want to get kicked off the course (I have seen lad's literally in tears on their knees begging not to get thrown off, despite being in-front of their mates).

I am not defending anyone here, I am pointing out the difference between punishment and education. They should also be punished, they have to learn responsibility for their actions, people saying its the parents at fault removes the responsibility from the kids, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, you've got to try and get the kids socially responsible and understand repercussions etc.

I feel sorry for some parents, you can't police your kids all the time especially when they are in a neighbourhood where other kids are left to roam, I can't blame some parents for giving up and others for not knowing any better.

You have to break the loop somewhere, and the most impressionable and immediate problem is the kids, that's where you have to invest your effort.

Pure punishment has a bad habit of just making people more careful and sneaky, I am sure many of us can associate with that in some way.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#428984 - 3rd Sep 2010 7:56pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: DavidB]
GrandMasterFlash Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 12th May 2010
Posts: 2492
Loc: at a computer
But they should be punished, one of the reasons behind these sentences is retribution, how does it make sense that someone can harm their victim in some way and get an education out of it? Rehabilitation yeah but apparently it's not doing that either!

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#428986 - 3rd Sep 2010 8:00pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: diggingdeeper]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9982
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: GrandMasterFlash
But they should be punished

Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper
They should also be punished, they have to learn responsibility for their actions


Glad we are in agreement thumbsup
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#428997 - 3rd Sep 2010 8:37pm Re: Community payback: defended on Merseyside [Re: diggingdeeper]
phalinmegob Offline

Wise One

Registered: 26th Dec 2008
Posts: 818
Loc: tranmere
i took a walk in birkenhead park a while back with the missus and there were guys doing community service,one of them had a mate who was fishing and he went off fishing with him for about an hour as we had a cuppa at the new cafe.

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