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#428721 - 2nd Sep 2010 5:13pm TRAIN NAZIS
BUNGUS Offline
Member

Registered: 31st Aug 2010
Posts: 53
Loc: Wallasey
Can someone tell me if what just happened to me and my girlfreind today is legal. We got on the train at wallasey village and got off at Birkenhed North, (one stop), we bought saveaways a few days ago ready to use whilst the car is off the road, the Baby kicked off and whilst rumaging around for his bottle and dummy we mislayed the saveaways, the clippys came and we couldnt find the tickets, I explained thinking they would just make me pay for the one stop again but they issued us with a £20 fine each! then demanded the fair for the one stop journey I went to walk away and the fella stood im my way and pushed me back, i told him that if he put a hand on me again i would defend myself he squqred right up to me and i told him to get out of my personal space which after an eye to eye stand off for a few second and my worried girlfreind trying to calm the situation down he stepped back. He told me that HE HAD THE POWER TO STOP ME LEAVING THE STATION USING FORCE IF NECESSARY if I didnt pay, surly this cant be right, and i would appreciate any advice.

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#428723 - 2nd Sep 2010 5:20pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: BUNGUS]
jabber_Ish Offline
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Registered: 7th Jan 2010
Posts: 2942
Loc: Black Rock
he has no right whatsoever to physically touch you im certain of that....
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#428727 - 2nd Sep 2010 5:24pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: jabber_Ish]
BUNGUS Offline
Member

Registered: 31st Aug 2010
Posts: 53
Loc: Wallasey
I said that too him but he reckons that he could restrain me for the police!! nasty piece of work he was.

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#428734 - 2nd Sep 2010 5:36pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: BUNGUS]
_Ste_ Offline


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Registered: 7th Aug 2005
Posts: 15987
Loc: New Brighton
mad
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#428735 - 2nd Sep 2010 5:42pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: _Ste_]
jabber_Ish Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 7th Jan 2010
Posts: 2942
Loc: Black Rock
you could write to the railway with a formal complaint threatening them for assualt ! it will all be on camera
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#428739 - 2nd Sep 2010 6:08pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: jabber_Ish]
jemarc Offline
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Registered: 27th Feb 2010
Posts: 226
Loc: tranmere
i used to be a security guard and by law although some do break it u are not allowed to detain anyone by force, u can ask them to come back in but u are not allowed to touch them i would presume that your situation would come under the same rules. nobody is allowed to touch you it could be classed as assault.
hope this helps. like jabber says make a formal complaint preferably in writing there should be cctv.

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#428740 - 2nd Sep 2010 6:12pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: jemarc]
Hiekel_Essterol Offline
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Registered: 2nd May 2008
Posts: 275
Loc: Wallasey
In addition to all of this the £20 fine could be brought into question as it is punitive in nature and not within UK law......normally (see parking fines). However this is the railways who also have their own bylaws so not too sure. Certainly worth looking into. The arguement would be that they are only entitled to what they lost out on which would be the fare from the station you got on to the station you got off.

Re: the assault/detention. If they arent allowed to touch someone what constitutes a citizens arrest? Would this be the same sort of thing?
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#428745 - 2nd Sep 2010 6:42pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: Hiekel_Essterol]
bazzoh Offline

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Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 252
Loc: wirral
definately not allowed to touch you or your property, they can prevent you from leaving (ie standing in front of exits etc) but they cannot physically touch you...

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#428746 - 2nd Sep 2010 7:13pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: bazzoh]
Wheels Offline
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 4th Jan 2005
Posts: 8795
Loc: Tranmere
Was it security or a train driver/conducter?

The guards are allowed to request your details. This is then checked (like the police do). It is all done by railway bylaws and you can be summons to court. If you refuse to give details then the police will be in attendance. He should not if touched you tho as far as I'm aware. Did he have his own wearable cctv on at the time?

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#428751 - 2nd Sep 2010 7:26pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: Wheels]
BUNGUS Offline
Member

Registered: 31st Aug 2010
Posts: 53
Loc: Wallasey
Thanks a lot for all the advice, the fella with the camera on his jacket was standing directly behind the fella who pushed me back, I asked the one with the camera to stand at the side so he can get all of what is REALLY happening recorded. My girlfreind has just told me that one put hs foot on the babys pram.

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#428764 - 2nd Sep 2010 8:02pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: BUNGUS]
Wheels Offline
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 4th Jan 2005
Posts: 8795
Loc: Tranmere
Did they have any ID? Do you have any officers number so you can say who it was?

Putting a foot on the pram is really out of order in my book.

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#428778 - 2nd Sep 2010 9:15pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: Wheels]
BUNGUS Offline
Member

Registered: 31st Aug 2010
Posts: 53
Loc: Wallasey
I got the numbers on the fines they gave us but the shitbags wouldnt give us their names, If id have known at the time that one had put a foot on the pram id have sat there and made them call the police, but knowing my luck it would have been me nicked. They all look out for each other dont they the government agents. Meant to be enforcing the law not breaking it.

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#428785 - 2nd Sep 2010 9:20pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: BUNGUS]
RUDEBOX Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Aug 2008
Posts: 19087
Loc: Bob Land
Did you have the saveways on you? If so did they give you time to calm the Baby and then look for them?
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#428786 - 2nd Sep 2010 9:20pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: Wheels]
Wench Offline

H4H County Volunteer
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 9th Aug 2008
Posts: 8616
Loc: Second Circle of Hell.
I believe the technical term for them now is Revenue Protection Officers, although there are a few others such as REO's (Railway Enforcement Officers) and RCO's (Railway Control Officers).

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 s34(4) includes "questioning by persons (other than Constables) charged with the duty of investigating offences or charging offenders", so yes, he does have the power to stop you leaving the station if he had a reasonable suspicion that you were committing theft (and this can be considered theft as you did not have a valid ticket for travel).

You have a choice of pay the £40 or you can appeal it in writing within 21 days of the issue date to The Independent Appeals Service, PO Box 89, Portsmouth, P01 1EG.

My advice would be pay the fine. You didn't have a valid ticket to travel when asked to produce one. Any passenger who is found travelling without a valid ticket for their entire journey is liable to be issued with a Penalty Fare of £20 by Merseyrail Ticket Inspectors plus the fare to the destination station if continuing their journey.

The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s5(2) states that "If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses or fails on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law."

This law means they can detain and eject people using reasonable force (off a train or station) if they want to. However most train operating companies don't want their staff getting involved in the confrontational side of things.

Hope that helps laugh
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#428802 - 2nd Sep 2010 9:51pm Re: TRAIN NAZIS [Re: Wench]
Wheels Offline
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 4th Jan 2005
Posts: 8795
Loc: Tranmere
Just so you know "they" are not employed by Mersey rail, they are subcontracted security officers trained with the bylaws.

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