Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request Possible crop marks in Landican?

It's all very intriguing, and I love reading about the origins of place names, great stuff tom!

I know why he won't tell us anymore, he wants us to buy his books!!!
What are they called then?
Don't know if this is allowed, i.e. advertising so PM me with the titles, mate, please.

google tom stevens books

Next time Im in the library I'll have a look for his books
Certainly look forward to seeing the film he's involved in

I thought of that but didn't know if there is only one Tom Stevens, author. Don't want to buy something I'm not interested in.

What film?

He's not the first and won't be the last to advertise on this forum, not my theatre of interest, myths and fairy tales, but we'll see how long he hangs around for, not for long if others are anything to judge by.

Hi Will,

Here's Loomis's book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Celtic-Arth...mp;s=books&qid=1272026475&sr=1-3

Here's a paper by Francis Tudsbery from 1907 (pdf free download)

http://www.archive.org/stream/brunanburghad93700tudsuoft/brunanburghad93700tudsuoft_djvu.txt

In it you'll find ground-breaking field and research work by an academic nearly 100 years before the current work led by Stephen Harding on the Battle of Brunnaburgh. Its notable amongst other things because he mentions the Wirral and Arthurian myth as being the subject of a future paper which sadly I can't find.

He does however mention Gawain and the medieval poem in relation to Wirral: he also discusses Thor's Stone on Thurstaton Hill called by the name of 'Fair Maiden's Hall' as used by local children in his day.

"Is it possible that the Grail story's author may have asso-
ciated Fair Maidens' Hall 2 (now coming to be called ' Thor's
Stone '), at Wirral's Thurstaston, with the ' Castle of the Queen of the Maidens ' ? The island (' under ', or at least within sight of, that castle), which Sir John Rhys has associated with Angle- sey, is identified by him with Puffin Island ; v. his Studies in the Arthurian Legend. I would add that Puffin Island is also visible from the Thurstaston District. It is of course not improbable that Hilbre(e) Island, just ' under ' Fair Maidens' Hall, has often been confused with Puffin Island."

This is of course 'Caer Siddhi' the 'Castle of The Fairies' in Welsh Myth related both to the Grail and the Cauldron myths, and in the Gawain poem which must be based on far older British-Welsh and Irish oral traditions as well as (as has been established on the Irish tales of Curoi/Cú Roí {Cú Ruí, Cú Raoi} mac Dáire and Cúchullain - complete with the beheading game that appears in Gawain and The Green Knight) the 'Lady' of Bertiak's Castle (in Wirral) is Morgain le Faye (Irish Goddess Morrigan) and Queen of The Fairies. Berilak's Castle (Bertilak is the 'Red Knight' avatar of the Green Knight) is called Haut Desert 'The High Desert' which given its 'Otherworld' location could easily be (as a portal) located on the windswept heath of Thurstaton Common near to Thor's Stone.

Re Hilbre, its located off the north west angle of Wirral, between the land of Gwri/Gawain (Wirral) and King Bran (modern North Wales). King Bran is identified with the 'Fisher King' at the Grail Castle which is on an island. King Bran is Keeper of The Cauldron of Rebirth and one of the Lords of Annwn (later Avalaon). Gwri, when renamed Pryderi in his youth, is also for a while, a Lord of Annwn. Hilbre's unimpressive size and lack of a visible 'Castle' (Caer in Welsh) is no problem as it would be 'invisible' in Celtic myth anyway. Hilbre would simply have to be a portal - and a place considered to be 'numinous'. It was certainly occupied by the Christians and consecrated by them - which is a sign that it may well have had religious significance before their times. Also and again, time as well a space limit me - the name 'Hilbre' and its alternative name 'Hildeburgh' as in St Hildeburgh's Island are of note. If the word Hilbre is considered as Old Welsh or Gaelic/Irish then it takes on a possible meaning thus: 'Hil' in Welsh means the decent of the ancestors or tribe, the lineage and continuity, Bre means hill or raised place. Now there are no 'Hills' as such on say the main island, but if its taken as a place where the lineage ancestors descend as if to a high place - then it seems like the natural name for a portal. In Galeic you have 'Hil or Huel and Brion, as in Hil - 'high' or Huel 'The Sun' connected with Brion who is Bran as in King Bran. the sun sets behind Hilbre island when viewed from The Wirral (Gwri's Enclosure) and 'in' North Wales, King Bran's Kingdom, towards Puffin island and Anglesy - which is from Wirral's perspective in between (due West) Wirral and modern Dublin in Ireland. Another brief point of note concerns 'St Hildeburgh'. There was a St. Hilda of Whitby (c. 614–680) who was a relative of the 'Pagan' Northumbrian King Æthelfrith who defeated the British at the battle of Chester (616). Hilda was trained in the Celtic tradition of Monasticism as brought from the Western Scottish island of Iona by St Aidan. This is important because its a possible link between the Irish (Church) and the 're'-naming of Hilbre as St Hildeburgh's Island. In his book 'Celt and Saxon The Struggle for Britain AD 410 - 937 - ISBN 9-780094-721609 pub by Constable 1993, Beresford Ellis mentions (perhaps unexpectedly) the Irish roots of the archetypal Saxon poem Beowulf - which has come to be regarded as the origin myth of the Angles. The elements opf the story are to be found in much older Irish sources, and, crucially, he says that the means of transmission to the Northumbrian court was via Irish monks entering Northumbria from the west.
Æthelfrith's conquest of Chester was the most likely earliest date for the establishment of Anglian penetration and settlement of Wirral. Æthelfrith was of course 'pagan' but Hilda's sainthood and - I suggest the roots of the Beowulf myth, may have conflated (as there is a Queen Hildeburgh in Beowulf) into 're'-naming the island of Hilbre as Hildeburgh's island - that is 'Saint' Hildeburgh's isle. Now we have the common etymology saying that Hilbre is derived from Hildeburgh, but in fact, it may be the other way around. St Hildeburgh's Church in Hoylake Wirral, is a modern church, derived from nearby St Bridget's (an Irish Saint) and as the church webiste http://www.sthildeburgh.org/contact.html says - its a most unusual dedication, perhaps unique. This suggests that the obvious link to King Æthelfrith, Saint Hilda and to Beowulf and the Irish monks hasn't been made, or, there never was a St Hildeburgh as such - rather like St Tegan and Landican, its something that's come into commomn acceptance - without evidence even though evidence for other explanations does in fact exist.

I suspect that modern Woodchurch/Landican is a far more important 'Celtic' site than has hitherto been fully appreciated, and that it may indeed have been the tribal enclosure of the Hibernian Irish who settled (with their myths that became both the Gawain story and the Arthurian tales) there in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. If this is the case, then we may expect as yet undiscovered archaeological treasures to be found benneath its soil.

I haven't advertised, I stated a fact, as part of a long answer to someone's genuine question. My post above contains references to other peoples work not my own, shame that a lack of patience in waitimng for a reply has been turned into an advertisment that wasn't there. I came here looking for help, I asked a question, was ridiculed by some who didn't understand what I was asking, just for asking it, was asked for my reasons for being interested in those possible crop marks, I answered, and then was asked for more, which I've given including references, only to be accused of 'advertising'. If I was going to do that, it'd be simple to post up links to Amazon. That's not why I'm here, I'm here to ask for help. I have no need to advertise here, and I have no wish to.

Treasure?
Quick will someone lend me a decent metal detector before anyone gets there before me

Can you come down the pub tonight and tell us more
(see pub meet topic)
genuinely not taking the mick

Hi Derek,

I'm tied up with work, but thanks for the offer. If you check out the sources I've mentioned you'll get the background. The best TV adaptation of Gawain and The Green Knight is the 1991 Granada TV production staring Jason Durr. I say 'best' as despite the low budget the acting is superb, and the editing illustrates the essence of the tale especially as it relates to The Wirral (also called correctly Penrhyn Cilgwri in the narrative). It was wriiten by David Rudkin who also wrote Penda's Fen (broadcast in 1973) an absolute masterpiece.

Re place mames, BTW, once you strip away the Viking over-writting there's an awful lot that's Celt still on the Wirral, and some of them quite unexpected. I suggest that its useful to acknowledge and to consider the original Irish invasion and settlement on the Wirral 500 years before the arrival of the Norse-Gaels from Dublin in 902, and then look and think again about a number of local place names that are too often dismissed as being 'Viking'.

Tom that was excellent, thank you for that. I would certainly think that the Time Team would be interested in this. They are always on the look out for post Roman and Pre Norman archeology as there is so little around.

I would get in touch with them except it would be a tad strange coming from Australia, where the oldest archeology is about the same age as my old house in Dingle Rd Tranmere.

Tom,
Took me a while to find the, undisturbed, time to read this and I'm fascinated! Do you give talks or would you be interested in doing so. I'm sure there are a few of us on here who would love to listen.
Good luck with the movie, by the way, matey.
Will.
p.s. I didn't accuse you of advertising.

Hi Croc,

I don't give talks as such, and don't worry, I know you didn't accuse me of that. I must admit to being very curious about the new archaeological finds in Woodchurch/Landican that have been provisionally reported here on the Bisdston field stones thread. The location hasn't been disclosed, but at a guess, it may be the new build at Woodchurch High School in Carr Bridge Road, as the finds are described as ranging from the neolithlic to the post-medieval period - and there's a lot of disturbance caused by the new building (of an entire school) This was part of my curiosity about the possible crop marks. Hopefully the arcaheology will clear up a lot about the area. Place name research is very helpful, but an overlooked perspective is the Celtic/Gaelic - with much of the emphasis being Norse and Anglian. It seems that Landican as a place name may well be 'Old' Irish, along with nearby Noctorum and Arrowe. The well known settlement by Norse-Irish in 902 gets a lot of coverage, but not the 'Old' Irish settlement of the west coast in the late fourth and early 5th centuries. The finding of an established (by 500c years) Hibernian/Irish population by these much later Norse-Gaels could explain place names like Irby for example - not then a settlement named by the Norse-Irish after themselves, but instead after the people who were already there - just as is the accepted explanantion of Frankby. Even Bidston Cum-Ford, and Prenton as well as Tranmere, and God forbid Caldy, have strong Celtic-British elements in their names (or in the case of Tranmere Old Irish). Thurstaston which has been much debated could easily be a Celtic/British and Anglian conflation as in 'Tor' Old Welsh for a hill with a big rock on it, and 'Stan' Old English for 'Stone'. But in the hurry to place the Norse everywhere and to de-bunk the 'Thor' myth of the stone - the current popular explanatuion for the etymology is a Norse personal name. It's as if the 'British' (Celts) didn't exist in these parts - only Anglians and Norweigian-Irish Vikings. Landican, was most likely either a Norse-Gael place name from circa 902, which would fit with Woodchurch's first appearance as a 'Nosre' place name in the eleventh century, or, its of Old Irish/British origin along the lines I've mentioned in an earlier post. The Viking spam approach may favour the former - although its doesn't seem to have occured to that movements protagonists that Landican could be Irish - they rather think of it as some outpost survivor of Welsh/British occupation. Perhaps it is, and in the absence of written history we have to go with archaeology and - with mythic-cultural folklore - tied up with known population movements, and remenant place names often hidden as conflations benneath a layer of Norse-Anglian names. Pensby is one such place, and whereas many commentaors have suggested that 'Pen' is Welsh/British for a physical feature in the landscape such as a headland, they fall down a bit on teh fact that Pensby is some distance from the shore - and that 'Pen' also refers both to the head of the human body - and more importantly to the 'tribal head' of the clan. Pensby as we know it today, would not have been called that prior to the Norse arrival in the 10th century, but note that it borders Landican (remember the suggestion of this being the tribal 'Llan' and assembly area in my previous post - and how the Norse may simply have snipped off Thingwall as their own assembly area). Pensby then would have been the settlement where the 'Head' of the British/Irish tribe lived. This does make sense...
Caldy and Prenton are interesting too and so is Greasby, but that'd take up a lot of space and time.

The film BTW without 'advertising' is in development/pre-production and will have a soundtrack by former Mike Oldfield singer Maggie Reilly ('Moonlight Shadow' and 'To France'from the 1980's). Actors lined up so far include Jim Alexander (London's Burning/The Bill/Dream Team), Mark Morrighan (Brookside/Holby City) Suzanne Colins (Brookside) Liam Paul Fox (Coronation Street). It'll be set on both the Wirralc and Liverpool. There are TV projects in decvelopment too, one with Colin McKeown of LA Productions in Liverpool (The Bill, Coromnation Street, Liverpool One, Thief Takers) and this project will be Wirral based. I hope thats not 'advertising' its info in the public domain and there's no links to book selling websites or anything like that.

Hi Mindplayer,

Many thanks,maybe the current dig in Woodchurch will tempt them to have a look, or maybe they'd be asked to keep away? Dr Who fan I see... I remember the first transmission of 'An Unearthly Child' in November 1963. I loved the original William Hartnell stories: some of them just history without SciFi intruding. Time travel instead perhaps of 'just' SciFi.

Cheers,

Tom.

Never mind about 'advertising' Tom.

This is the link to the Twitter page about Lilith
This is an actual movie set in Wirral, that's what Wiki is all about.

Thanks Will: a quick note about 'Prenton'. The Doomesday survey calls it 'Prestune' and describes it as having woodland 3x3 miles. This may have been effectively a forested area under Norman forest laws (as has been suggested on another thread). The usual accepted etymology is that its derived in meaning (as is Preston in Lancashire) from a priest's dwelling at the settlement.

However, there's no priest or church recorded at Prenton in Doomesday - the nearest priest (but one without a church being at Landican (adjacent to Prenton). The Norman scribes who completed Doomesday often conflated Norman-French placenames with those of the locals - for example Chenotorie for Noctorum (which is Old Irish - ie 4th-5th century) and Landechene for Landican (probably Old Irish 'lanndaichean').

If we look at tghe prefix 'Pren' as Welsh - then Pren means 'of the wood' or 'constructed from wood'. Doomesday mentions the 9 square miles of woodland which is a hard thig to miss or misconstrue by the scribes - so its very likely that 'Pren'-tun was Welsh 'Pren-Tre' the village or settlement in or of the wood. An example of Pren in a contemporary Welsh place name is Prengwyn in Ceredigion.

If we accept that Landican is British/Irish, as is Arrowe and Noctorum, and also Tranmere as in 'Tramore' (Irish: Trá Mhór, meaning big strand or beach)) which is a town in County Waterford, Eirie, then it would make sense to include Prenton as part of the cluster of British-Irish place names on Wirral - many of which have become overwritten or conflated by the later Anglian and Norse-Irish ccupations (mid 7th century Anglian and early 10th century Norse).

I'd include Pensby as an obvious example (see my earlier post above) but also perhaps unexpectedly Bidston and Caldy.

Bidston cum Ford is usually given as an Anglian:

"PLACENAME: Bediston (first mentioned 1260). Byddi's farm or Budda's town. From Old English personal name Byddi or Budda and tün. Alternatively could be a dwelling on a rock, derviding from bytle stan. Bodeston 1260; Bideston 1272; Bidelston 1294; Bethelstan 1347." http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/exhibitions/magical/placenames/bidston.asp

Note the willingness here to interpret 'tun' as 'stan' (Old English for Rock' but that at Thurstaston the obvious British/Welsh-Old English conflation for a settelement on a 'Tor' by a rock 'Tor-Stan-Tun' is ignored in favour of a Viking (again)

"PLACENAME: Turstanetone (first mentioned 1086 in the Domesday Book). Thorstein's town. From Old Norse personal name Thurstan and tün. Thorstanistona 1216; Thirstynton 1539."
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/exhibitions/magical/placenames/thurstaston.asp

Getting back to Bidston, the Welsh word for a 'ford' is 'Rhyd' which is not that far removed from 'Bid'. And as Bidston is called 'Bidston-cum-Ford' then its quite likely that the original Werlsh/British plave name for Bidston and its ford became conflated and conjoined with the Anglian 'tun' to give us Bidston.

Caldy in the Doomseday survey is called 'Calders'. Now, this could be another example of interpretation by local Norman-French scribes or, it could be a huge clue that the place name is not Norse (the assumption often seems to be that anything north of the line that runs from Raby to Ness must be Norse unless its too obviously otherwise).

"PLACENAME: Calders (first mentioned 1086 in the Domesday Book). Cold hill or cold arse - referring to a hill name. From Old English 'cald-ears'. Caldelrs 1136; Caldei 1182; Cawedy 1606."
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/exhibitions/magical/placenames/caldy.asp

The above is an 'Anglian' etymology - but many proponents of the Viking spam approach to Wirral history strongly suggest a Norse etymology (just as they do for Tranmere fo example).

However, what about 'Calderstones' in Liverpool, or the numerous 'Caldicot's' in modern England and Wales? Caldicot (Welsh: Cil-y-coed) 'Cil' as a recess or retreat as in the Welsh name for Wirral 'Penryhn'(headland) Cil (retreat) Gwri (personal name of the archetypal solar deity and later Welsh hero Gwri: see my earlier posts).

Caldy could then be a dimunitive for the Cil (Irish Kil) of Penrhyn Cilgwri. The Weslh word 'Cadel' means 'battle' and so the name may recall a battle in the area of modern Caldy/Calders.

There are other possible etymologies, and I mention Caldy just as an example of how things may not be as they seem.