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Jenny, just read thru again and I am adamant that people who are not up to the job take flak when they are rumbled as being in a job beyond their competence. If this rule was followed then job performance would improve (especially when you stop their severence payoff and pensions). I love the German point of view that there is no such thing as an accident, someone is to blame. It's harsh but it works. Cut out the psychobabble and look at things they way they are. Bring kids up right and usually they will be alright when they get older. Stuy's spoiler was harrowing reading.

Last edited by BandyCoot; 17th Mar 2010 10:21am.

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Bandy, your right, normally if we bring children up correctly in a loving environment, not necessarily in a wealthy environment, they normally turn out ok. That's because most children are born as we deem it, normal, and we should stand a better chance of raising a decent person. I believe there are people who have evil within and if its within, the likelihood its there from birth. What triggers that evil to come out, when and at what age, that we don't know. Whatever age evil raises its ugly head, it should be removed from society and not let back in.


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I think the whole story points to 2 conclusions...

Either the system for rehabilitation has failed or he is a "bad egg" that is now beyond help think

Jon Venables was released and given a second chance, his release was under conditions, which Im in no doubt were made very clear to him. Now at 27, he has made a conscious decision to break those conditions.

Had he abided by his release conditions this whole story would have been left in the past by the media, so I have no sympathy as he continues to flaunt the law.


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Stuymac:

I agree that he should be locked away now for a very long time after being given the second chance, but let's remember that from what we all know Thompson is living in society still and maybe he was the success and I believe he should be left alone now unless he commits further crimes, unlike some on here who I feel would have him still locked up today.

I do believe that Denise Fergus and Ralph Bulger have a right to know what is going on.

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How nice it would have been if little Jamie could have had a second chance.


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This is no place for children.


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That could be said of any murder.

I read somewhere that the fella who killed the two boys in Eastham in 1995 ? can apply for parole soon, I class his as a lot worse than two 10 year olds however public perception is that the two kids must be evil as they were kids yet the adult could be having a bad time.

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That's how stupid our Judaical system is, murder is murder and all murderers should serve life, without a hope of parole. One murder is no different from another, they have all ended someones life and should pay by losing their freedom for life.

Last edited by bert1; 17th Mar 2010 3:45pm.

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They should serve life which means life, ie 100 years with no parole like in the USA. Oh, by the way, it is worse, the barstard who killed the two kids in Eastham should have hung like all adults who kill children.


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I am sorry this is really long but I tried to answer everyone :S


Here is a link that supports some of my arguments. link

Please be aware that this was probably written by some sort of criminologist. It is not written with emotion and it is quite blunt at times.

Bandycoot  They did not ‘get away’ with anything. They were taken from their families. Their freedom was taken away and they were put under strict rules. They are unable to be ‘themselves’, see each other or their families and they are the targets of a witch hunt, of which if someone did find out who there are their lives would be at risk. Hopefully they also have to live with the guilt. Bear in mind that they would be back in society at some point, if we moulded them in to a further criminal people would have been even more at risk. The only other option is for us to be as bad as them and beat them up or kill them. What would you have done?

Yes I agree if this had happened to my child i would have a different view. But this would only be because my emotions would cloud my irrational thinking. I will also state that I ‘did’ have this view until I looked further into the aspect of this case when I was doing my degree.

I myself would not leave a child of 10 alone in the house because I do not feel they are ‘old enough’ to be alone. Therefore I would also not expect them to be tried in an adult court as if they are not ‘old enough’ to do adult things then why should we try them in an adult court? You may say ‘because it was horrendous’ and yes you are correct but it was still a horrendous act committed by a child, not a monster, not and an adult, a child, therefore that equals a child court.

In fact the children should have by law been given incapax dominae which means because they are so young they have no criminal responsibility for their act. So now we have both the boys and the courts breaking the law. Where do we draw the line for the age of criminal responsibility? Does a 2yr old have it? Should we lock up a three year old if they have done the same thing? Or maybe even hang the 3yr old? Bear in mind we have the lowest age of criminal responsibility in Europe. I think it’s the second lowest in the world, the lowest is Scotland with age of 7.

In Norway the age of criminal responsibility is 15. A girl of 8 years was killed by a group of young boys. This case was treated totally different. I have read quite a few cases where even the mums of the child that has been killed has said how disgusted she was with how England treated Venables and Thompson. There was no criminal trial. The boys where sent back to school and helped by psychologists to understand what they had done and how to deal with the consequences. Not even the girl’s mother could find it in her heart to despise them.
She states: “I do not understand why those boys killed my baby and I will never recover. But I do not hate those boys. They understood what they had done but not the consequences, not the terrible pain they had inflicted on those close to Silje.”

Stuymac I assure you I have not forgotten what it was that happened. I also assure you that I have researched other aspects than just what the media said. I sympathize with the Bulger family and the families of the two boys who are also being punished for what their two sons have done. But what I am talking about is two boys not the monster that your link suggests. If we make out that the children are monsters then it will be okay to kill, hang, or stone them to death. But if we see them as children, well who is going to copy them and kill a child. Not many because that would make us as bad as them wouldn’t it? Do they deserve it? I don’t think that any living person deserves to have their life taken away from them.

Bert1 So then was it in fact evil that condemned them? Maybe they thought the child was evil? Maybe it was a cry for help? Maybe they did not understand it? If you believe that Satan was in the child, then would you have had them killed? Would this make you an evil person too? I do not agree that someone can be born evil and as I have studied child development I really don’t think it is possible. Children can have mental issues and if this is the issue then why had they not been picked up in school? I know that social workers where already working alongside the boys so there must have been some issues, but these must not have been dealt with properly. I agree what is it that makes one child react to a situation differently than another? For instance if someone mentioned the idea of competition to me I would get scared/shy and walk out of the room, whereas my sister would be raring to go. What is the difference? Well personality is a factor and then there are other tiny factors that have led to this difference, maybe bullying or a bad experience. Sometimes underlying issues are at hand. I have seen children that set fires in school and these are thought as ‘evil’ but really it is a cry for help and therefore it is our fault for not seeing that that child is suffering and not coping with life, for some of those kids if the fire doesn’t work then suicide may be next.

DizDazDoz Just to reiterate at 10 I don’t think I would have understood the pain that death causes on not only the child but other people too like his mother and father. I also don’t think I understood that it meant not ever wake up again either. Also it was not the first time a child had killed another but it was the first time the media had gone crazy on it.

Tilly So you would destroy two young boys? Is that not the same as what they did? What if it was an adult that killed the 2yr old? It happens more often but no witch hunt is put on their heads. What about those 30 people who saw but did ‘nothing’?

Aegaen  I agree that one of the reasons that adults may not have intervened may be because they may have been arrested. But would you save a boys live and risk the arrest or leave him to die. One woman said she would have intervened but no one would hold her dog for her so she walked on. When you where ten how easy was it to step over the line. Even when having fun in school kids step over the line and end up hurting others. It may be true that this was a prank but the boys took it too far and unfortunately that led to horrific death of 2yrs old boy. The video theory has almost totally been squashed, but if you are right then in the movies people get back up so maybe this could show how the children could not understand the extent of death. Part of a child’s development is realizing the difference between TV and reality.

Capt_America  If there is no way of coming back from doing something ‘evil’ then God help society. I would like to hope that you are wrong; otherwise we may as well give up on every person that has ever done anything wrong, because they cannot come back from it. In Canada the age of criminal responsibility is twelve, whereas in most of the states of the USA the age is either sixteen or eighteen. So if we go by America rules they would not have gone through an adult trial and proceedings never mind 100 years in prison.



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Oh dear, the dreaded sociology degree???
You say yourself that social workers were already working with them but did not deal with them properly....sack them and their bosses, they are working beyond their competence.
You say it was a prank that went too far: some prank, some too far. It wasn't a prank, it was something that was premeditated and was a well thought out sequence of events. They knew what they were doing and how to go about it.
When 10 year olds give younger ones a Chinese burn they understand what pain is, they have had one done to them. That is part of maturing in a rough and tumble life. So it's really just what degree of pain and suffering you are willing to inflict on someone.
Personally I don't give a stuff how they do things in other countries. If someone does something which attracts retribution in one form or another, and it doesn't matter how minor the misdemeanour or the punishment, it is done consciously.
I take it you are a Social Worker? If that is the case I understand, you are only protecting your industry.


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First of all in replying on my section, welcome to the forum, I don't want anyone killed, i have never believed in capital punishment and never will, i do believe however that murderers should be taken out of society. I also believe that people with mental illness should be afforded all the help society can give them. In my view, there are evil people and it is in them from birth, now we can put them under any umbrella we like as far as the wide ranging mental illnesses go. These two boys was not on this earth long enough to learn this type of evil, normal behaviour in my view, if the prank went wrong, would have been to leave Jamie alone at the side of the road or to that effect and to have scarpered, at 10 years of age they would be fully aware that he could not have gave a description, instead they carried out the plan they had hatched to the end. In your studies of child behaviour, is evil on the list of mental issues, i doubt it. We as a society, either can't or refuse to recognise it in those so young, yet we can easily recognise it in adults, such as Brady and Hindley etc. I don't believe anyone wakes up one morning and says, for the rest of my life I'm going to be evil. The hard part is finding out what triggers it. I'm afraid for now, their loss of freedom is the only way to deal with them, that way we keep society safer.


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Originally Posted by Jenny_S
Capt_America  If there is no way of coming back from doing something ‘evil’ then God help society. I would like to hope that you are wrong; otherwise we may as well give up on every person that has ever done anything wrong, because they cannot come back from it. In Canada the age of criminal responsibility is twelve, whereas in most of the states of the USA the age is either sixteen or eighteen. So if we go by America rules they would not have gone through an adult trial and proceedings never mind 100 years in prison.



To me, doing something wrong is getting on the bus without paying, stealing an apple from the greengrocers, or filling out a fraudulent tax form. Doing something evil is killing someone, raping someone, or maiming someone. There is a massive gulf between doing something wrong and doing something evil. People who do evil have a propensity to do evil which can never be removed. One of the things that makes me most angry about the world are the number of people who kill or rape again after being released from prison after “rehabilitation”. I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine how it would feel to lose a loved one to someone who had been rehabilitated by the liberal do-gooders, who seem more concerned with the rights of the perpetrator than with those of the victim or their surviving family.

I cannot post again in this thread because the thought of what some families go through upsets me too much. I only hope that those who have the view that evil people can be transformed never have to go through the pain of seeing a loved one lost to one of these people, as many families do.



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I would have intervened and said something or alerted someone. If Venables and Thompson didnt know the meaning of right from wrong or life or death then, they almost certainly should know it by now. Quite frankly they dont deserve to know the difference. They havent been punished enough.....

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The opportunitiy should never have existed for little Jamie Bulger to be abducted from the Strand shopping centre. Venables and Thompson and their families deserved to be monitored for the rest of their lives. Unfortunately, if the media jump on reporting 'heresay' (or anything else at all, until their trial) as this will result in trials which are NOT 'fair and just' - hence they may not event be tried at all.

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Bandycoot - No not a sociology degree I did a Psychology with Criminology degree which was more science based than a sociology degree. Okay maybe not sack them but investigate why they were able to go so far. I agree any adult involved with the children should at least have been under investigation. But I read somewhere that the psychologist’s report said it was not premeditated.

Yes but knowing the feeling of pain and the aspects of death are two different things. Kids kick other kids and laugh but they still get back up even if they’re crying. Am not saying it was not horrible to inflict pain on a small child but as you say this at a lower level is part of life. What I would like to ask them is what exactly it was that did take them so far? I read in one report that the boys said that they carried on because he kept getting back up. I wander if maybe the young child had of stayed on the ground if they may have stopped! I agree it was done consciously and I agree with punishment the only thing I don’t agree with is that they are evil, monsters and the way everything was dealt with by the ‘so called’ adults. I am not a social worker. But I am looking to become one with the reason to try and notice the signs of troubled children and to help them before they go too far. If I cannot believe in rehabilitation then I may as well give up now.

Bert1- Thankyou. Of course a child of 10 can learn good and bad. They obviously knew what they were doing was wrong, so as for learning evil, if you can learn morality then you can learn ‘evil’. According to Piaget’s theory children acquire memory at 7months and at two years should be able to use simple verbal and non-verbal language so a description could in fact have been got from the child. I do not recognise ‘evil’ as being born into an adult or a child. People decide what they want to be, but an adult is able to understand the differences more than a child. If ‘we’ as society did not believe this then a child would have the same responsibilities as an adult. If they really really understood it all as an adult would then we would trust a child of 10 to be the judge in the court. I don’t believe anyone wakes up and decides to be evil either I think a lot of factors put together are result in unwanted behaviour. Yes in studying mental health the word evil has been used to address certain mental issues but it does not mean that this cannot be changed, cured, rehabilitated. I agree about the loss of freedom at the moment being the best way to deal with people who are a threat to society, but because I believe in rehabilitation especially at such a young age I think that if they passed the tests and where not thought to be a threat anymore they were right to be given a second chance under strict rules. If this boy has broken those rules or shows signs that he may again be a threat to society then I agree he should face the consequences. But what about the other boy? Maybe he is proof that rehabilitation can work! Or maybe we should go and arrest him too just in case.

Capt_ America – (I know this person has said that they will not post again and I respect that but I will answer their post anyway)

I agree there are two forms of wrong doing; one is less severe than the other. I also agree that many adults that have formed their own identity in their teenage years and above will not listen to someone else’s point of view never mind be rehabilitated, hence the saying ‘set in their ways’. But how many times has this saying been used on a ten year old, who has not yet formed their identity, a child can change its point of view on something over and over again until eventually they understand it totally and form an opinion. I believe that some children’s attitudes, ways of life etc can be changed; ‘we’ in society use the saying ‘minds to be moulded’. Can they be moulded to be bad and good? Maybe, hopefully some that are bad/evil can be moulded to being good. If you believe in born ‘evil’ like Satan do you believe in God? Maybe if we preach to them then they will become good? If not where does this evil come from?

I think you underestimate the social workers involved in rehabilitation. Some (depending on the circumstances) even involve the victim in the rehabilitation of the criminal, giving the victim some sense of clarity and also some sense of justice. I would hope that all social workers sympathise with the victim but there are particular social workers that work with victim support whereas those working with the offender have a lot of work on their hands and really have to concentrate on that particular job. It’s not the rights of the perpetrator that they are thinking of; it’s the safety of society without having to isolate people from it. Many people go to prison and come back out AFTER they have served their time with more contacts and more ideas; the idea of rehabilitation is not to let this happen. I believe in trying my best to transform others because I do not want to see people loose loved ones to offenders that either would not have offended with help or to offenders that have become an even better criminal in prison while they serve their sentence.
Aegean – I am glad that you would have taken action. I hope that I would do the same. I agree they should know it by now and therefore if they do know the difference I hope they have a lot of emotion towards the Bulger family. And also I hope that they will not do it again due to that understanding. How would you have them punished? Stripped and hung? They served most of their time. If we had of allowed them in an adult prison for the last couple of years of their sentence then they may be an even bigger danger to our society than you think they are now.

Gloria – I totally agree the opportunity should never have existed. The children obviously had some issues and these where obviously not thought to be this severe, someone was wrong, and why where they wrong is a question I would like to ask. Unfortunately the media created witch hunt meant that they did not have a ‘lawful/fair trial’ the first time round, and if this time round it happens again you are right he may not be tried, or they may automatically be guilty to anything the media says without proof and without a proper trial.

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