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Well...If Mr Malpas struck Mr Allen and subsequently arrested him for fighting then PC Malpas is a very lucky man and hasn't been judged harshly at all. Certainly not behaviour to be applauded.

I doubt Mr Malpas the waiter would have been treated so leniently.

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Was the officer was treated harshly? I don't know but I think you assume he was.


No, I didn't say that. I don't think that Police Officers, or anyone else in a "position of power" should be treated more harshly than the Average Joe. The media have jumped on this story purely BECAUSE of his job. I think that is unfair, hence the waiter analogy.

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If Mr Malpas was a waiter and he got into a fight on a train in what way would that be any different to Mr Malpas the policeman getting into a fight on a train. Both would have to face the due process of the law.


No, it is no different. Both did face the due process of the law. That is exactly my point - they should not be treated differently. See above reply.

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The other party in this fight, Mr Allen.. is now described as a 'scrote' because he ended up in a fight with a policeman.


He is indeed, as are the others of his ilk. Having been a nurse for a good many years, I saw the end result of the injuries and sometimes devastation that drunken "scrotes" leave behind through sheer drunken and bloody minded violence.

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There's alot of detail missing in this story.


Indeed there is, having not been involved in the case and not having read any of the transcripts, I cannot pass judgement on the missing details.

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I'm not trying to defend the drunken young lad with the bottle of vodka but I'll be damned if I'm going to defend a drunken off duty policeman for getting into a fight on public transport.


And there lies the crux of my arguement! If he was the waiter, would you still be "damned to defend" him!?!

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From face value of this story, it's blatant double standards.


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This is sending out the wrong message altogether, it is saying that is ok for an drunken Off-Duty officer to hit somebody and then blame the other person and arrest them - whaaaaat?


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PC Malpas is a very lucky man and hasn't been judged harshly at all. Certainly not behaviour to be applauded.


Once again, he is judged because of his job and NOT as an individual human being who felt threatened!

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I doubt Mr Malpas the waiter would have been treated so leniently.


But that is just it - he would have been! The case was 2 individuals, not 1 individual and a "job".
















Last edited by PaganJay; 25th Feb 2009 7:51pm. Reason: I forgot to breathe!

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oh fook me!
PC Malpas has the same right to use reasonable force in the execution of his duty as ANY person on the street is permitted by law to use reasonable force to defend themselves. FACT
THAT INCLUDES a premptive strike...IN LAW that IS permitted wether you are a Police officer or not. FACT

I doubt that a waiter would also be put in a postion that if he DIDNT do something about drunken idiot on the train he WOULD be done for negelct of duty.....ergo LOSS OF JOB/PENSION etc.

Not to mention as a Police Officer you are trained to defend yourself and effect arrest using physical restraint AND you by nature and experience are aware of the repercussions of the above and of what drunken idiots are capable of....

What a disgrace that a Police Officer was put before a court for doing his job....


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@PJ as you are well aware, proffesional expertise is included in judging how responsible a person should be, can't remember the exact term now but I'm sure you know.

@Beemer - this was an OFF-DUTY DRUNK police officer, this is nothing to do with the execution of his duty, as you are aware. Premptive strikes are not permitted in law, reasonable force is, as he managed to arrest Mr Allen afterwards,surely he did not need to hit him in the first place he could have either constrained him as he did later or walked off. If Mr Allen had not retaliated then I am sure the outcome of this case would have been different.

What did PC Malpas hope to achieve by hitting Mr Allen, instant submission, or the effect it did have, getting thumped back and creating a dust storm over what actually happened.

This reminds me off the global defence of a police car speeding when it shouldn't be - I was just practicing, oh sorry was that a person in the way!



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DD - Technically, words can constitute an assault, ergo by his comments (an assumption by myself as I have not seen the transcripts nor the CCTV footage), Mr Allen had effectively assaulted Mr Malpus. Due to this, one would deduce that Mr Malpus "feared the immediate infliction of force" and thus be within his legal rights as a human being to use such force as he deemed necessary, within the constraints of the law.

The basis of the fear possibly instilled in him that forced him to act thus may have been that he did not know what Mr Allen was going to do next, but feared that "sufficiently immediately" it was something of a violent nature.

It boils down to what is known as "proximity" and "intention".

The problem is that Mr Malpus will be effectively "tried" twice for the same crime. Once in the Court system and then no doubt at a Police Tribunal for a breach of the Police Code of Conduct. For this, if it were me, there would only really be one man I'd want at my side during a Tribunal but I'm not sure it would be correct for me to mention his name.


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PJ you started by saying 'Good on him'. I would have to disagree. An officer of the law is expected, nay demanded, to behave in an lawful manner at all times, off duty or pissed or not. How an experienced, well trained officer of the law could be intimidated by a drunk 20 year old man, to the point where he thought he'd have to jump in first and punch him in the face doesn't IMO suggest someone who is fit to earn a lucrative salary as a police officer.

The media haven't jumped on this story, it's pretty tame stuff. I for one am very glad it was reported because if things like this weren't... the police could do any god damned thing they liked. It didn't reach court without somebody thinking there was a case to answer to.

You're referring to Mr Allen as some sort of menace to society when you have absolutely no idea who or what sort of person they are. You have, with prejudice, labelled this man as a 'scrote' and suggest that if any policeman wants to give him a slap, then thats a good thing. You go further and suggest that any member of the public would be quite entitled to punch him as well. You've never seen or met this man.

The fact that they were on a train, young, drunk and in possesion of a bottle of vodka doesn't automatically make them a menace to society. That Mr Allen engaged PC Malpas in conversation about anything, (AND I MEAN ANYTHING), does not give him the right to punch him in the face.

If I'm sat on a train and a drunk kid sat opposite me calles me a c*unt, if I punched his lights out I'm expecting to be arrested. But if I'm a policeman it seems I've got an escape clause.

Beemertastic - "He only punched him in the face once..." What? Really? Five or six times and he'd have a case? That's a shocking thing to admit and does nothing for my respect for the police.

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Shambo - I wasn't the only one that said good on him.

You ask

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How an experienced, well trained officer of the law could be intimidated by a drunk 20 year old man, to the point where he thought he'd have to jump in first and punch him in the face


I have to say that in the current climate with knife crime rocketing, you never know just what someone has on them or is capable of. As I say, having not seen the CCTV or read any witness statements or transcripts, I don't know how abusive Mr Allen had been to the other passengers, if at all. His decision to start arguing with Mr Malpus is, by legal definition, assault.

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You're referring to Mr Allen as some sort of menace to society when you have absolutely no idea who or what sort of person they are. You have, with prejudice, labelled this man as a 'scrote' and suggest that if any policeman wants to give him a slap, then thats a good thing. You go further and suggest that any member of the public would be quite entitled to punch him as well. You've never seen or met this man.


His ilk are, IMO, a menace to society. Too many law abiding citizens in this country are afraid to go out, day and night in some parts of the country, for fear of what may happen. We are constantly bombarded with news reports of people who have intervened or asked people to be respectful only to be attacked and in some sad cases, murdered. I never once suggested "that if any policeman wants to give him a slap, then thats a good thing"! My "suggestion" as you put it is that any member of the public, if in fear of attack or being attacked is, according to English Law, entitled to use reasonable force in self defence. Not my suggestion - Law.

Neither of us, as far as I am aware, have met either of them, yet you are also making sweeping statements about Mr Malpus. Neither of us knows what was said or how it was said - a threat may well have been made that lead to the incident, we just don't know.

We can go round in circles on this ad infinitum and never agree honey. Only 2 people know the truth and that's them two!! We can only speculate.


The only thing I will say is, you can't tar all the Police with the same brush.



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Originally Posted by PaganJay
The media have jumped on this story purely BECAUSE of his job. I think that is unfair, hence the waiter analogy.


I have to say ... and rightly so. The only good thing about media reporting is exposing professional double standards. wink


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I have to say that in the current climate with knife crime rocketing, you never know just what someone has on them or is capable of.

You may be of he opinion that knife crime is rocketing but it isn't. The British Crime Survey states that 'knife enabled crime' (any crime involving a knife) has remained stable for the last decade at 6-7% of all crimes committed. A relative increase if you consider that all recorded crime has dropped by 48% since it's peak in 1995.

If you choose to live your life in fear because of certain parts of the british media have sensationalised knife crime in recent months thats unfortunate. You certainly wouldn't be alone in thinking the world is becoming a more dangerous place, even if there is no evidence to back that claim up. It doesn't however justify policemen or citizens hitting out first and asking questions later.

Quote
As I say, having not seen the CCTV or read any witness statements or transcripts, I don't know how abusive Mr Allen had been to the other passengers, if at all. His decision to start arguing with Mr Malpus is, by legal definition, assault.

You can walk into any bar in any part of the country at any time of the day and see two drunk people arguing. If the police are called to the scene is anybody going to be arrested for assault? Of course not, thats silly, it would be a waste of police and the courts time. Mr Malpas is a police officer who must have heard some choice phrases in his professional capacity. By legal definition verbal assault may be your justification for Mr Malpas actions however, and for me this is the crux of the matter, if it was me who had struck Mr Allen for arguing with me on a train, as a private citizen, I would expect to be arrested. If CCTV showed that I had struck the first blow then I would be very well advised to plead guilty to any charges and hope I was shown leniancy for being intimidated. If PC Malpas was being verbally assaulted, why didn't he restrain Mr Allen and place him under arrest?

Instead he punched him in the face and I think that is unacceptable. What is more disagreeable is that PC Malpas subsequently arrested Mr Allen and claimed it was him who started the fight. You state that "Despite popular belief, the Police are actually human", which of course they are, but if PC Malpas is to act with aggression whenever somebody argues with him then I don't believe he makes a good candidate for a police officer.

Or am I to believe that all police are saintly sorts of figures who are physically incapable of doing any wrong? Well...

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you can't tar all the Police with the same brush.

You may believe Mr Allen and his 'ilk' are in need of some rough justice but thats a broad sweeping generalisation of anyone that basically you don't like the look or sound of. I'm not trying to tar all police with the same brush. I don't hold any grudge or prejudice towards the police. I do strongly believe that police officers should be setting an example of how to behave in public, on and off duty, drunk or sober and by the account given in this news story, PC Malpas actions haven't exactly covered himself in glory. Certainly not something to be uninvestigated, ignored by the media or applauded. Theres something about this story that smacks of double standards and I'm clearly not the only person who thinks so.

It's clear there's no way we are going to agree on this one PJ. hi

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It's clear there's no way we are going to agree on this one PJ.


Nope - both too stubborn snob Fancy a pint instead raftl


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@shambo...
oh i believe your very much mistaken.
premptive strike IS permitted in law...check your facts.
MALPAS only punched him ONCE...FACT.
MALPAS wasnt drunk....FACT.
MALPAS was on duty technically...due to little know fact. Merseyside police have an agreement with the local train/bus operators whereby if we show our warrant cards we are permitted free travel on buses and trains within Merseyside. This is with the agreement of our Chief Constable.
Police are permitted to put themselves "back on duty" at anytime...and by displaying a warrant card in this manner you are putting yourself ON duty.
However the rider to this one is if you are unfit for duty (ie drunk/injured such as i have been) you are NOT able to use the warrant card in such a fashion. You must be fit and able to discharge your duty if you utilise this option of free travel.

MALPAS DID give numerous warnings to the male and told him to behave or he would be arrested. The male refused and carried on....
left with no choice MALPAS made the choice to arrest the male to not only protect members of the public but also to prevent any further offences occuring...(have a look at lawful reasons for arrest as per SOCAP 2006)....not just "assault him" as some act of mindless thuggery as implied by yourself.
Added to this MALPAS didnt have the necessary equipment on hand to restrain him....and by nature of restraining someone (and if youve ever had to do this you would know what im talking about) he have to dominate in order gain physical control.
ACPO approved techniques for control and restraint INCLUDE pre-emptive strikes and distraction blows prior to a restraining hold being used!
There was no issue with the arrest, however three witnesses came forward and gave varying accounts of what happened...all differed wildly...they all said they said different things when it was quite obvious that from their positions within the train that they COULD NOT HAVE SEEN what they said they did.
It was on examination of the CCTV and the MALPAS statement that DID tally...that the case was thrown out.

To sum up...you simply dont have the full FACTS to hand...and therefore make decisions based upon rumour and conjection.





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i agree with shambo!

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Beemertastic you might think I'm very much mistaken but despite your passionate defence of your colleague, you haven't said anything to make me change my mind on this subject. Way to close ranks though, I wouldn't have expected anything less.

Your assertion that Mr Malpus must have been sober because police officers aren't allowed to travel free on the trains when they're drunk is quite funny. I have to laugh because otherwise I'd be annoyed that you think I was stupid enough to accept that as an acceptable reason to belive Mr Malpus had to be sober.

That he punched Mr Allen in the face only one doesn't make that any more acceptable than twice or three times. Again I think you're insistance on emphasising it was just the one punch in the face shows an appaling attitude towards the public in general. Are you allowed to give villans the one dig in the face? No you are not.

Lets look at this 'pre emptive' thing. Mr Malpus gave Mr Allen ten seconds to 'fook off' or he warned him he would be arrested. Arrested for what? Talking to an off duty police officer on a train? Possesion of a bottle of vodka that could potentially be used as a weapon? Looking like a wrong'un? Telling him "I don't like Bizzies"? Mr Malpus can give whatever reason he wants at this point to justify his 'pre emptive' strike. Mr Malpus is a 36 year old, six foot three, experienced police officer who was was 'intimidated' by a pissed 20 year old. No matter what way I run this I can't help but think Mr Malpus over reacted.

If he was 'spooked' by this kid and lashed out at him that would seem a perfectly human explanation, especially if he had been drinking. That he then decided to arrest Mr Malpus for starting a fight would clearly be a perversion of justice. Whilst Mr Malpus was placing Mr Allen under arrest he was being told by the witnesses who came forward and made statements later that, "you can't do that".

Questions were asked about Mr Malpus conduct that needed to be answered. The alternative would be no checks or measures for police conduct. It certainly doesn't sound like a waste of taxpayers money to me. I'm a tax paying model citizen and I'm glad this happened. The court decided that these witnesses weren't close enough to the incident to disprove Mr Malpus version of events, so the case was dismissed.

I'll say it again, if I had been intimidated on a train and decided to make a 'pre-emptive' strike, nobody would be taking my word for the matter. Especially if, at a later date, several witnesses felt the need to state they though I was being overly aggressive. That was the reason for the investigation was it not?..that several witnesses felt compelled to make statements to the transport police with regard Mr Malpus aggressive behaviour?

There is obviously no way that I can prove or disprove either persons version of events, but from all the information I've been able to gather I am definitly of the opinion that PC Malpus can consider himself lucky not to have been convicted.

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Hey have some comments been deleted from this thread? From this evening? Whats that all about?

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Mine's gone, but if you taunt some one enough then they will react, the pissant got what he deserved.


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