What do we know about Wirral gun sites from the second world war? I know about the one on the sandhills at Wallasey. Was there one by Bidston station?

Father used to tell me about the mobile one's that fired off a few shots and then moved. For what reason I don't know because I can hardly imagine the Germans were going to hang around to plot where it was!

I think I have heard of a static one at Storeton as well. Has anyone ever researched this?

There certainly was one next to bidston station and it was nicknamed "Big Bertha" big bertha at bidston

There was one at Thurstaston,right by the visitor centre.The mounds are still visible where they were filled in.I am sure the centre has some information on this.

I've been trying to find the reference, but can't. From memory, there was a gun emplacement between Storeton & Brimstage. If I can find the details, I'll post here. In the meantime, this little snippet I happened across in my search might be of interest.

Cheers, Chris.
http://futureobservatory.dyndns.org/0094.htm

Interesting read that Chris. There was a lot of concrete by Bidston station that they used to keep horses in and I figured it was some kind of gun site from the way it was formed. I have some recollection of being told that people in the shelters under Bidston Hill could hear it being fired off in the raids. Perhaps I read about it?

Does anyone remember the anti aircraft gun they had on fort perch rock? Used to climb on and "train" it. The Artillery guys from the fort used to go into my dads aunties little cafe in Balmoral road and when the Sergeant came looking for them, she would let them escape out the back door.

I may have the location wrong but my father once told me they had dummy sites around Bidston where they lit fires to mislead the Germans into dropping their bombs on waste land. That seems a bit close to the docks and built up areas for my liking even if there wasn't as much there as now?

They had rockets on the site in the sandhills. I can remember going to that place in the fifties (sixties?) and the public toilets were old army one's. I don't think anyone ever claimed to have knocked out any German planes with rockets but must have scared them a bit all the same!

There was AA Guns opposite Holm Lane in Prenton. Now the houses of Davenham Avenue etc occupy the space.

Is there any record of a gunsite on Bidston Hill? Maybe just a single AA gun?

I have been told of gun sites on the hill but can not find any info on any.I have found 1 of the sites on the hill and and there is names and dates carved into the rock.One dated 1940.

I do have pics of these carvings on my laptop of which I do not have at this moment.Will post them when i get my laptop back.

I have found a link to some defences on Wirral but does`nt mention the sites that we know of now.
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/search/keyRes.cfm

The only thing I know about the Thurstaston installation is that, under the grassed area, it's still all under there for the most part.

"When the old line was transformed into the Wirral Way path, The Anti-aircraft emplacement was landscaped by mounding earth over the buildings, which still remain under the mounds."
From http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/t/thurstaston/index2.shtml

I`m almost certain they have info and pics of the site when it was partilaly filled,in the visitor centre.I seen them somewhere and 99% sure it was there.

This link should help but note there are 4 pages (231 records) to plough through

Thurstaston, raby, new ferry, etc are all mentioned

http://www.pastscape.org/SearchResu...t&sort=1&nmr=&defra=&p=0

Thats a good site,I`ve found a similar site wether it tells us anymore I don`t know yet.Still stuck on pastscape.Great site.Gives info on the sites,what they where used as,grid refs and location maps.

Using this site, I've found the reference to the Storeton anti-aircraft battery; thanks for the link Dave.
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/search/fr.cfm?rcn=CBA_DOBNAI-4054&m=0
Using the 8 figure (very accurate) grid reference, here's a map of the location. The yellow pin points at the gap where the entrance would have been, which is still in the hedge on Red Hill Rd. & the red pin is where the battery was.
It might be interesting to go & see if there's any evidence left, but looking at the photo, I think not.

does anyone have any info on the boxes at either end of "the white bridge" between port sunlight and bromborough (new chester road)? i cant see them on google maps which is strange, i was sure they were still there lol

I was told they where meant to protect shipping that came in from the mersey directly to levers in sunlight.Under the main building (lever house) there was an munitions factory and they used to assemble american jeeps at levers as well and then ship them back out.Lever bros had it`s own wharf.

They are pill boxes to defend the bridge. Anyone invading from the shore at New Brighton or Moreton would have to come along certain roads before breaking out into open country and these were put at strategic points. There is one on Brimstage road as well plus of course the one where that woman was murdered back in the fifties by Woodchurch road. That would protect the bridge over the road because the Germans could and would have used rail bridges if road bridges were blown up. They would have machine guns in them and possibly have a mine field in front to deter tanks.

When I was a lot younger, on the Leasowe embankment there were quite a number of these pill boxes plus "tank teeth". i.e. concrete pyramids to stop tanks.

Given that we are on the wrong side of the country, an invasion here was unlikely but they had to take precautions just the same.

That's a great resource; I've bookmarked it. On page 1 there's the Storeton site, 2 3.7" guns & the Raby site with 4 guns.

I've just come back from here, well Storeton woods, I went for a quick wander along the old tracks to the tunnel under the road. I actually drove past this on the way home, if I would have known I would have stopped and had a gander whilst there was still some light left.

Your father was right. Here's an extract from "Up Our Lobby", talking about the West Cheshire Golf Club.

My nanna used to talk about the big gun going off at the top of her road in the war.

I imagine it would be in the sort of area where Northwood Road meets Prenton Village Road (Prenton) - where the church is...?

That church has been knocked down and replaced by houses now I think.

Nice one Chris. Thought he was telling tall stories but no! Okay I thought I had posted this yesterday but can't find it so don't know what happened.

He also reckoned one of our planes either Spitfire or Hurricane ditched in the docks and before the pilot could get his feet wet they had hooked it up to a dockside crane and lifted it out of the water.

Even for my father I find that a bit of a tall tale. For one the pilot would have got out rather quickly I would have thought in case it sank and for another it isn't so easy just to hook onto an aircraft. If anyone can prove otherwise I will apologise to the old man even if he is dead and gone.

My folks often told me of the gun site in Holm Lane, Prenton. Our lounge ceiling in Ennerdale Rd. was supposed to be badly cracked by the gunfire from Holm Lane. I recall them claiming under the "War Damage Scheme". We got a new ceiling out of it anyway !! The phrase "milking the system" springs to mind.
The nearest bombs to us landed in Northwood Road, which is a fair distance away.

Looking at maps and aerial photos for Storeton AA Battery, just southwest of where Chris marked there is some interesting marks on land in the 1970 aerial photo, these have gone by 1997 aerial photo, but the wooded area doesn't appear on maps before WW2. Some current maps include the road/paths through the wooded copse even though they stop dead at the open fields.

Sorry to disagree Pinz, but a number of houses opposite the Holm Lane AA site got damaged on 7/8 April 1941, I don't think there was a direct hit though.

This is a 1946 aerial photo of New Brighton. If you look in the bottom left you will see a white round circle. This is Vale park and it was the site of a barrage balloon.

I hope it comes out okay as I have had to resize it. If you look closely you can see missing houses where bombs have dropped. Vaughan road and Dalmorton being good examples.

Theres a BIG AA site in Puddington, near where the old pig farm used to be! In the middle of a large field, there is a small cro of trees and based inside was a large AA battery, complete with concrete bunkers, ammo bins and dugouts! We used to use it as our base / training ground, when i was in a paintball team years ago. Should still be there, bit overgrown by now tho!

Whoops - sorry pinz, ennerdale is a long way from where I thought it was, has it moved?

No problem dd. Ennerdale Rd. is next road down from Prenton Dell Rd. when heading for the Woodchurch Rd. railway bridge.

Had never heard of the bomb(s) that fell in Holm Lane. It does make sense though. Presume Fritz was trying to put the gun site there out of action. I'm assuming that the gunsite was the same plot that was marked "Hutted Camp" on older maps (see Chris's excellent map posts of a few weeks back). I do remember the camp was home to Hungarian refugees after the uprising in 1956. Don't think it was open for long. The refugees were found more permanent housing fairly quickly.

Some foundations lasted until the "new" houses went up on the site in the '70's (?)

Keep up the good work dd !

Went here today to see what I could find, what seems like foundations are still there, took a few photos to show you what's there.

Always wondered what that little "hut" was - Thanks Neston

The anti tank defenses where commonly known as "dragons teeth"

Look at page 84 of the gallery. Interesting.

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/specColl/dob/gallery.cfm

https://www.images.wikiwirral.co.uk/forum/10571.jpg

That 1970 photo tells a lot. It seems to me that those tracks mark the site & that the grid ref. in the archive is slightly wrong. They give SJ 3100 8394; the point in the photo where the track makes a 90 deg. turn is SJ 3105 8390, so about 50 metres out in one direction & 40 metres in the other. It also seems that the entrance was not from Red Hill Rd. but from Brimstage Lane, through what was then little more than scrub land. The formation of the entrance is very clear; it would have to have taken large vehicles.
@ Neston Vasey: thanks for the pictures; I assume they are all in the woodland on Brimstage Lane?

Cheers, Chris.

Yeah, there just off Brimstage Lane in the woodland, looks like there is about 5 buildings there.

Thanks for those Neston, great job.

Get your chops around this, had the link for a while...enjoy, needs google earth.

http://tinyurl.com/rjlxf

Once on the page choose the 'view in google earth' option. Voila

Most interesting. Has the Starfish sites too. Starfish was the code name for the sites where they lit flares or had lights to misdirect enemy bombers.
With regard to the Storeton AA site, interesting to see that they have it at the point where I placed a red pin in an earlier post & not nearer the wood as I suspected when I saw the 1970 photo posted by diggingdeeper. Of course, it's possible that those co-ordinates come from the same source, (very likely in fact), and that they are not accurate. Still, I've no idea how big these sites were so maybe both locations are within the site. The markings of tracks on the 1970 photo together with Neston's photos of the remains in the wood are very compelling. It's possible that there may still be someone local who could give a certain answer.
It's at times like this that I'm sorry to be so far away.

In an attempt to locate the gun site precisely I'm enlisting the aid of the National Monuments Records who, in the past, have provided some very useful old aerial photos, e.g. of the Storeton radar site at the top of Lever Causeway. I've given them the grid ref. of the gun site so we'll see if there are any photos of it after the war. Unfortunately, I've just had an e-mail saying that at present, searches are taking about 25 working days, then there will be a further delay while they send the pics., so don't hold your breath.

Cheers, Chris.

Just been looking at the location of the New Ferry site - this looks extremely close to the outdoor pool, I am not sure when these baths were built but I would have guessed before ww2.

Well, I've now had the pictures I was waiting for. They settle the matter once & for all, as they are some of the clearest aerial pics I've seen. The buildings are extensive & some remains are still there, as photographed by Neston Vaysey. Although the aerial pictures seem to show several bases, the records show that this site had just two 3.7" guns. Looking at the pics, there's not a tree in sight, so the woodland which is there now is only 50 years old. I know a lot of it is conifer, but some of the hardwoods at the edge of the road look older.
Here's a link to the National Monument record of the site
http://www.pastscape.org/hob.aspx?h...source=text&nmr=&defra=&p=0#
Here are the aerial pics; the 1946 one is at a scale of 5500:1 & the 1955 one is at a scale of 5000:1. this equates to about 12 inches to the mile. The 1955 is taken from a height of 15,000 Ft. Using these data, I've measured the size of the site & it was about 150 yards by 250 yards (I'm sure you youngsters can convert this to metric) I've included a modern aerial shot for reference.
It would be interesting to know when the site was finally cleared; it doesn't seem to have been touched even 10 years after the war ended.

Cheers, Chris.

Well done Chris. They are indeed very clear photo's. It backs up my memories of when I used to mooch around there whilst still at school. 1958/9 ish. I couldn't recall any woodland at all. I remember the bunkers (?) being blown up by the T.A. I'd guess at early '60's ?
You can even make out in the 1955 shot, the concrete fence posts around the gun emplacements!

Thanks Chris.

The last time I passed this site, it was dark. I'd appreciate it if someone could take a pic. of the huge sandstone gateposts on the road & measure them; I reckon they're about 18" square. Also, a pic. of the trees near them.

Cheers, Chris.

has any one got any info on what was in the field at the top of levers causeway, was it a radar centre or something? used to play in that when i was younger cos me grandma and grandad lived on mount road oposite. I know its gone now but always wondered what it was

It was a radio comunications station. The home guard where on duty there for the duration of the war

Yes, it was a radar station. There's a thread I started about it somewhere, with aerial photos. I used to play there after the war too, mikeyfreedom.
It would be good if you, jimbob & mikeyfreedom could let us know a bit about yourselves in General Chit Chat/New members. I've got a feeling you may have much to contribute. There are many threads still searching for information.

Cheers, Chris.

Been round there fer few times!! offten wondered were everything was,those pics are great.Such a big gun site....

Just to add a few pictures I've got of the Storeton Ack Ack site. The one from 1940 shows a very advanced stage, about a year after the start of the war. 1979 & the site is still clear but the buildings are gone & the woodland grown. By 1987 there's virtually no more evidence than there is today.

The 1940 picture shows only 2 AA gun sites, the 1955 photo shows 4 gun sites, so there must have been some expansion, 1955 also shows a lot more buildings expanding outwards.

http://www.pastscape.org/hob.aspx?h...source=text&nmr=&defra=&p=0#

According to this, it only had 2 guns, but I agree, there seem to be sites for more.

Brilliant Chris, that 1940 picture makes alot more sense of what I found - I think all of the base slabs of the bigger buildings are still there.

To keep everybody else up to date, I video'd round this site, unfortunately if the video is reduced down to youtube size it is cr@p so I won't be posting it - in full quality the half hour vid doesn't even fit on a DVD.

I will get round to posting some stills from the video together with descriptions of approximately where they are. I have been meaning to go out with my GPS to tie down exact positions, but the weather has gone t*ts up every time I have planned to go out and I wanted to do some still photos.

nice work mate!!

Excellent pics chris.

fantastic chris. thanks for Sharing.

I've had a look at the NMR photo of Storeton AA - if you look closely, in the field on the other side of the road, is the ramp for the GL radar, which was required to get it above the 85 yard diameter octagonal wire mesh mat. It's obviously disappeared since. the other arrows are what I guess are the control bunker and sewerage works. I've tagged some photos on of Blyth Gloucester Farm AA site showing an intact GL ramp. The landowner there had no idea what all the concrete bits were.

The GL mat was a 85 yard diameter octagonal wire mesh, usually at about head height (yes - chicken wire) which was found to improve the early gun laying radars, by providing them with an artificial horizon. Later models did not need them. Note that the Storeton AA site photo does not show it, so it was added later, and removed by the later photos:



Blyth AA aerial - note the octagonal trackway around what was the GL mat shape - and the stores underneath it (unusual):



The GL ramp itself - as built:

Thanks for that; we're learning more all the time.

Thanks for that W10694 - that ramp had completely disapeared by 1955.

The additional guns may have been the GL controlled guns put in retrospectively after the original manual HA guns shown in the 1940 picture.

Anybody got any info on the AA gun that use to be towed round the streets of Birkenhead, stopping on pieces of waste land to take a pot shot when an air raid was on, then trundle off to a different spot and do the same again. It use to come to a piece of land next door but one to our house in Peel Street Tranmere and fire a shot then move away. My dad said it always sounded as if our house had been hit when it fired a round. We where all in the cellar of our house when this use to happen.

Never heard about that, Jim. However, on a visit to the quarry opposite the top of Green Lane, where there's an entrance to the Tranmere Tunnels, during a conversation with the owner he pointed out a bricked up section of the quarry wall. He said that there was an AA gun kept in there & when Laird's was being bombed they used to bring it out & shoot. There was another, smaller, bricked up part which he said was the ammunition store. Here's a pic. of the larger one.

On a separate subject, do you remember the smoke generators? I used to see them on Borough Rd., near the Rovers' ground.

Once the Prince of Wales {battleship} was far enough advance in her build the AA guns which where part of her armament where installed and brought into action when there was air raids prior to her been moved up the Rosyth out of harms was to be finished.
I use to think those smoke generators where wagons on fire till i was told different

Wow,smoke generators.Now that`s a new one.Did not know anything about them.I am guessing but it sounds like they are to provide a blanket of smoke to conceal key targets.

Spot on. I only have vague memories of them & can't remember ever seeing one in action, but it sounds as if Jimbob did.

Chris,with the amazing resources you have,is it possible you can get a pic of one of these generators as I have never heard of them never mind seen one.

It's not that I have any special resources, but I do have time, which is a great resource. I'll see if I can unearth anything, but there may be something in the archives. I would imagine these things would be supplied or at least maintained by the local authority.

Some of the records about the Gun Sites are in Liverpool.

"Brimstage Lane, Storeton: correspondence, papers and plans concerning Leverhulme estate and land requisitioned as Mersey Gun Site Y: 720KIR/1186-7 nd

These documents are held at Liverpool Record Office and Local History Service"

That's very useful to know. Have you got the address of the record office? maybe someone could go & have a look. I'd do it myself, but it's quite a trip. Even better if the info. is available online.

Cheers, Chris.

Speak nice to Trancentral as he works over there and I`m sure he would be prepared to have a look for you,providing he has the time,he is a good lad.

I've pretty well decided I'm going to go myself later this week, or maybe next.

Ok mate,well you still have an option with Trancentral.

Thanks, Dave; setting off now. Wednesday 8am.

Good luck mate.

couple of photos off photobucket of antiaircraft gun

sorry if its already been done

Wow,cool mate.Where is it Derek?

I made a visit today to the Liverpool Record Office & have quite a bit of new info. on the Storeton site. I'm waiting for permission to use it.

Cheers, Chris.

Mmmmm,sounds promising mate.

Think the pictures are taken in the vehicle park of the Wallasey tunnel off Oakdale road

Thanks for the pics, Derek. Just to be clear, those are not the type of gun used at Storeton. At a guess, those pics are of a ship mounted gun & I'd guess the calibre to be 20 or 30 mm. The Storeton guns are recorded as being 3.7" calibre, which is about 94 mm.

Cheers, Chris.

Here is one I came across today, it near the roman road in prenton, on a contry road that leads to to brimstage hall.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's the pillbox on Brimstage Lane, (you can see the communications mast at the top of Rest Hill road), in which case it's not a roman road but Lever Causeway, which dates back to the 1920's. It was William Hesketh Lever's (later Lord Leverhulme) private road from his home at Thornton Manor, to Birkenhead & his factory at Port Sunlight.

Cheers, Chris.

your completely right chris, as the paths that you were able to walk up and down near to this turrat, aka his drive way are now labled as private and not public.

Very sad actually.

My friend Mark used to live in the cottage opposite the mere in rabymere, which was part of leverhulme's estate, but when the Americans took over they turfed him out to a smaller cottage and made many of the public walks a no go zone.

Yes, it's sad. Lord Leverhulme's causeway was always private, except for the bit from Storeton to Mount Rd., but he himself was a great public benefactor (just look at Port Sunlight & the Lady Lever art gallery) & as far as I know he never stopped reasonable public use of the causeway. One of the problems now, of course, is the matter of public liability; (cue Jaci). I guess if they made it open to the public & someone tripped & fell they could be sued for failing to maintain it. Mind you, the way things are today, if a burglar trips in your house or garden they can probably sue. End of rant.

lol, Rant noted. back to topic anyway, I will try and snap some more on the wirral as I know were a few more are !

Great, but if they're more pill boxes, better put them in the pill box thread please, not gun sites.

Cheers, Chris.

Well, I think I've waited long enough & I've had no reply from the firm, Edmund Kirby, Architects & Surveyors, who deposited the records with the Liverpool Record Office. They are there under the ref. No. 720/KIR/1186-87.
It seems that the Storeton gun site was owned by the Leverhulme Estate & rented to a local farmer.
Apart from the original Form of Requisition, and one from 1943 expanding the site, all the papers are to do with the demolition or re-instatement of the site.
I've put them in date order. Number 11 is the continuation of Number 10 (Letter from the Civic Trust), which contains a delightful assessment of the abilities of the local sapper regiment.
The next post will have a few plans which I was able to see; pity they're not better quality.

Cheers, Chris.

Plans. Right click & View Image should let you enlarge them.

Cheers, Chris.

That`s cool stuff that Chris.I did`nt realise it was that big and so many buildings.Thanks for sharing.

That is excellent Chris. It isn't very often that we get to see this "part" of the enigma wrapped around WW2 structures. I wonder how much more of this standard of notes is hiding in archives, only to be chucked at some future date.

I note that the plans include the field on the other side of the road where the GL radar ramp and wire mesh mat was !

cheers

Thanks for Digging that up Chris - the remains make even more sense now - cheers

Yes, I noticed that too.

Great stuff Chris. I like some of the terminolgy employed in the corres. Priceless !!

A pity the Edmund Kirby outfit hadn't got the courtesy to reply to you.

Hey there,
Not sure its been mentioned as I'm not about to go trawelling through all 7 pages of responses, but there used to be a big gun battery at the top of Levers causway where it meets Mount road. It used to be in the field that is now between Stanley road and the causway. It was hugh, or seemed to be when I played on it as a kid?

The location you describe was a radio/radar site. Not a gunsite !

O? All that was there was a big brick building and me dad said there was guns there.

In previous posts it's been well documented. ChrisKay obtained some RAF (?) aerial photos of the site showing the buildings/concrete bases. Put some time aside and have a trawl through the threads/posts.

Maybe someone can highlight the previous posts ?

I too used to mooch about the site when I was at school. Seem to remember some were partly flooded and didn't smell too good !!

Calling Chris ! Calling Chris !

Clicky - Radar Site

Clicky - Rocket Site

Thanks dd.

Have had a look at the Thurstaston AA mounds, there are bits of concrete popping through in places and they are at all angles so either there is a lot of rubbish on top of the AA sites, or they have been broken up.

The anoying thing is, I used to go there before they landscaped but I remember what was there other than the site was much more overgrown.

I didn't realise there is a reasonable amount of remains of the Bidston Gun Site, just off fender lane. Will try and photo it tomorrow night.

Two gunsites are in top left corner with a building inbetween, this may be the command/control centre. Just beside the road in bottom right is also something that seems to be from the same period.

Neston - Raby HAA Site

The site is at the back of the Wheatsheaf Inn.

Well - nothing much remains at all, the site has been cleared, but some buildings remain, probably accommodation.

There was a Cold War ROC site nearby as well, now demolished.

Subbrit roc post entry

Here is a map of the Camp Huts near to Oxton HAA gunsite (Mersey H/H32). They are located on what is now the central rugby/cricket field between Townfield Lane and Holme Lane. The rough ground to the east of the camp is still a patch of rough ground.

The gunsite itself is not marked on the map, as is often the case.

I remember the Oxton HAA "camp" being used to house the refugees that came over here after the Hungarian uprising in 1956 (?).

Only a kid then. Used to go up Holm Lane to get in the back way to the B'head Brickworks claypits. Like a moonscape. Great place to play ! Was told there were "foreigners" in the camp - don't go near !

Does anyone have any pictures/information on the gun sites at Leasowe & New Brighton?
I used to play there as a kid & well remember being able to operate the guns at Leasowe, one lad on each wheel to rotate & train the gun, until we got chased by the bloke who lived in the pre-fab!!

Tatey,Under the fencing head down along the trenching,we were there when the army left in trucks, they left over 3 days,remember sitting on the gate waving to them as they left,my memory is short on how many guns their was,I think it was 4 all on the sea end of the site,could never figure out how they would shoot at enemy ships with the sandhills in the way,the poor guy in that bungalow must have been driven mad with kids popping up under the fencing all over the site.

davew3,

Good fun eh! I don't remember the army being stationed there, but do remember when the T.A. (I guess)being billeted next door, closer to Wallasey end of the cinder track & performing sentry duty using pickaxe handles instead of Lee Enfields?

After it rained we used to go & collect shell cases from between the fencing & the sandhills. Must have had hundreds of 9mm & .45" shall cases at home.