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Re: Coronavirus [Re: casper] #1077285
14th May 2020 12:49am
14th May 2020 12:49am
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Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by granny


Considering SAGE are scientists, assessors and advisors, do you think Corbyn or Starmer would have chosen differently and who or which organisation might it have been ? Any ideas ?


Well we wont know will we? but lets hazard a guess, would they have followed the WHO advice that other countries took? test,trace contacts,quarantine,social distancing from the off,or would they do as the government did in the early decision making days of Feb and March to decide on herd immunity, at this time they were advised that not following WHO that it would be inevitable that most would get the disease, they then abandoned this approach because it became clear that the NHS would be overwhelmed leading to hundreds and thousands of deaths, precious time lost, we must also take into account the interference of politics and political advisers, and the reluctance to look to Europe, instead run to America and take notice of an imbecile that thinks drinking dettol will do the job.


A more relevant question is whether you think Corbyn would have thrown those in care and their carers to the wolves?

As to SAGE, their advice to the Government is confidential, how the Government use or abuse that advice is purely down to the Government, they do not have to follow the SAGE advice nor do SAGE have to give a clear cut recommendation.

Last edited by diggingdeeper; 14th May 2020 12:50am.

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Re: Coronavirus [Re: granny] #1077287
14th May 2020 1:42am
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Originally Posted by granny
Precious time lost ? It wasn;t declared a pandemic until 11th March. Lockdown 10 days later. We had Swine Flu, that was classified as a pandemic by WHO and I don't remember any lockdown, precautionary measures or even advice. The fact it didn't take off in the same way, was not something anyone could have concluded at the onset.
We went to work and didn't really think twice about it. Handled money , coughed and sneezed, didn't wear gloves or face masks. Why were we not advised to do so ?

The common cold is pandemic, declaring something a pandemic is purely a random administrative term, it is of no medical significance, it is only used and needed by international bodies not national bodies such as Governments.

Originally Posted by granny
Moving on, Kier Starmer asked about Austria, Portugal, Norway, Denmark and why their cases were so different. What a plonker !
Austria , 9 million, Portugal 10 million, Norway 5 million , Denmark 6 million populations. Total 30 million.
LONDON 9 million , UK 67 million. with numerous cities of high density[
.
Austria: 0.0069% of the population have died of CV, mortality rate of the disease 3.9%

Denmark 0.0092% of the population have died of CV, mortality rate of disease 5.0%

India: 0.0002% of the population have died of CV, mortality rate of disease 3.3%

Norway:0.0042% of the population have died of CV, mortality rate of disease 2.8%

Portugal: 0.011% of the population have died of CV, mortality rate of disease 4.2%

UK: 0.049% of population have died of CV, mortality rate of disease 14.4%

I included India as their population density is way above ours, especially in their major cities, the rest of the figures speak for themselves and show that regardless of the size of the population the UK have performed exceedingly poorly compared to most other countries.

So while Kier Starmer may be a plonker, he wasn't on this occasion.

Originally Posted by granny
Poland were fining people who disobeyed the Stay at Home .. between £1000 and £5000 . Had our government put that in place, that would have caused an uproar too.

Half a million live in Liverpool, and when people want to refrain from following the guidelines, then the words 'common sense ' doesn't even register. Do we have to be told 'common sense' , or maybe that's another liberty the country would prefer to see handed over to the Government .


The UK put woolly and illogical rules in place, it is obvious that you are going to get a woolly compliance when you do that.

Originally Posted by granny
Plus all the figures are skewed from different countries and to try to make it into a competition is clearly bad practice and callous.

No, it is exposing the callous Government we have, people's lives have just become a statistic which they believe they can bluff out. They are murderers.

Originally Posted by granny
Two different spectrums and as Coroners atm do not have to have such deaths reported to them

The only deaths not reported to the Coroner are those where the cause of death is 100% clear and unequivocal. If the Doctor is not 100% sure of the cause of death, he has to report it to the Coroner, by default deaths are reported to the Coroner, not reporting them is the exception.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077289
14th May 2020 9:49am
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Well you can say what you like, they mostly gave advice to be followed . Why do people behave like babies these days. Being spoon fed and having to have the ABC instructions ? Tell me ?

So common cold is a pandemic, and declaring something as a pandemic is just an administrative thing ? That's what you say, so therefore why on earth should Government be blamed for NOT ACTING SOONER. It was surely just an ADMINISTRATIVE term ?

Guidance was given, if people preferred not to follow it, then their choice. Populations , if you want to go into various other areas have a look at the land mass per country , it gives an idea of how people are cramped together . For some reason , nobody seems to think that's part of the cause. You haven't queried or condemned that bit of my post. !

Of course the figures are skewed . 'Sever cases' in UK hasn't changed for the last 4 weeks, its still on 1559 . Check it out daily, it doesn't change.
They haven't enough doctors in India, they're all over here so they probably don't even know how many are dead. That was a really bad comparison, DD.

Not interested in the anti- government approach to all of this. Everybody seems to carry an angry head these days, everyone seems to think they can do better, but ha ha! lets wait and see what happens when this has petered out . Along come the next lot of moaners about the country being back in recession. I know it's not normal to give any credit or acknowledgement of any form, that is evident in every walk of life today. If you said your uncle was Winston Churchill, you can be sure that nobody would even mention it (not with the inverted snobbery of the north) . They would see and pretend they hadn't seen. But, if you said your uncle was Karl Marx, then you would be smothered with love and adulation.
That's how this country has gone.. left, left and more left. But the continued pattern of Corbyn's challenging and confrontational skills, won't do anyone of the left an ounce of good. It's a dead duck and just gets a few quacks in response. The very reason that most people are extremely critical of BBC, SKY and ITV news reports these days. The public are sick of the lack of impartiality ,and that breeds discontent within a nation.

Celebrations of remembrance last week for 75 yrs since VE day. Those chaps and girls had far more strength than most today. They didn't moan, they didn't complain, they didn't see it as them being treated unfairly, or badly, or half starving on 2oz butter a week. They pulled together and won. They won in their hearts and minds too and became united.

Not here in this day and age.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Coronavirus [Re: granny] #1077290
14th May 2020 10:34am
14th May 2020 10:34am
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Originally Posted by granny
Well you can say what you like, they mostly gave advice to be followed . Why do people behave like babies these days. Being spoon fed and having to have the ABC instructions ? Tell me ?

Because they are being spoon fed, the Government should have provided truthful statements to the public from day one and applied rules that made sense. The Government was weak and spineless and scared of taking control and responsibility so they uttered nonsensical rubbish instead.

Originally Posted by granny
So common cold is a pandemic, and declaring something as a pandemic is just an administrative thing ? That's what you say, so therefore why on earth should Government be blamed for NOT ACTING SOONER. It was surely just an ADMINISTRATIVE term ?

Because they ignored the extensive medical evidence.

Quote
Guidance was given, if people preferred not to follow it, then their choice. Populations , if you want to go into various other areas have a look at the land mass per country , it gives an idea of how people are cramped together . For some reason , nobody seems to think that's part of the cause. You haven't queried or condemned that bit of my post. !


The guidance was confusing, they gave 6 month MOT extensions to cars but there was no requirement for MOT stations to close. Many businesses closed that didn't need to because of the unclear messages. The self-employed were assured help but many that are entitled have still not received one penny, they have gone for months without an income and again are in purgatory because they don't know if their support is to be continued. they banned driving distances in cars but are now releasing that rule, neither makes sense whatsoever. They promoted public transport which was very high risk and now u-turned many weeks later.

Originally Posted by granny
Of course the figures are skewed . 'Sever cases' in UK hasn't changed for the last 4 weeks, its still on 1559 . Check it out daily, it doesn't change.

Our Government still choose not to state the number of recoveries, for that reason there a number of derived columns in the Worldometer columns that aren't updated properly, however that doesn't affect any of the figures regarding deaths.

Originally Posted by granny
They haven't enough doctors in India, they're all over here so they probably don't even know how many are dead. That was a really bad comparison, DD.

There is no shortage of doctors or administration in the high population density areas, that is one of there public health problems, the doctors all migrate to the Cities. Its only rural areas that have a shortage.

Originally Posted by granny
Not interested in the anti- government approach to all of this. Everybody seems to carry an angry head these days, everyone seems to think they can do better

I thought you valued life.

Originally Posted by granny
Lets wait and see what happens when this has petered out . Along come the next lot of moaners about the country being back in recession.

When your own Government uses the words "punished" when referring to the way they will reclaim the money back off the population it is their choice, that is nothing less than declaring war on their own population. There are ways and means of recovering that money but a Tory Government will disproportionally choose to punish the masses.

Originally Posted by granny
I know it's not normal to give any credit or acknowledgement of any form, that is evident in every walk of life today. If you said your uncle was Winston Churchill, you can be sure that nobody would even mention it (not with the inverted snobbery of the north) . They would see and pretend they hadn't seen.

One of my uncles was John Reid, if that helps whatever point you are trying to make????

Quote
But the continued pattern of Corbyn's challenging and confrontational skills, won't do anyone of the left an ounce of good.

You've used that term before, I fail to understand where it has come from, Corbyn was criticised by many, including you, of being an irrelevant, ineffective wet lettuce. Now you are saying he was strong and powerful????


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Coronavirus [Re: granny] #1077291
14th May 2020 10:59am
14th May 2020 10:59am
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Originally Posted by granny

Precious time lost ? It wasn;t declared a pandemic until 11th March. Lockdown 10 days later. We had Swine Flu, that was classified as a pandemic by WHO and I don't remember any lockdown, precautionary measures or even advice. The fact it didn't take off in the same way, was not something anyone could have concluded at the onset.
We went to work and didn't really think twice about it. Handled money , coughed and sneezed, didn't wear gloves or face masks. Why were we not advised to do so ?

Moving on, Kier Starmer asked about Austria, Portugal, Norway, Denmark and why their cases were so different. What a plonker !
Austria , 9 million, Portugal 10 million, Norway 5 million , Denmark 6 million populations. Total 30 million.
LONDON 9 million , UK 67 million. with numerous cities of high density.
Poland were fining people who disobeyed the Stay at Home .. between £1000 and £5000 . Had our government put that in place, that would have caused an uproar too.

Half a million live in Liverpool, and when people want to refrain from following the guidelines, then the words 'common sense ' doesn't even register. Do we have to be told 'common sense' , or maybe that's another liberty the country would prefer to see handed over to the Government .

You know very well the difficulties of obtaining the right PPE, amazingly it's all available to buy on the internet ! Face masks, gloves, shields, the lot. Care homes have Agency Staff, could they have taken it into the place of work ? Of course they could have , different people every day.

I'm fed up with the whole lot to be honest , the moans, the groans the deliberate management of pitting the public against each other by the media, and I know exactly what will happen next. Schools... let's kick off about the possibility , yes possibility of schools going back. They have in other countries , so why not here, possibly in another 6 weeks ?

Scotland and Wales, clearly decided to make their announcements first in regard to lifting the lockdown, which they didn't ,but that's up to them. Scotland is not out of the woods yet considering the North East has quite a substantial caseload, as has North West, Midlands and London..
Plus all the figures are skewed from different countries and to try to make it into a competition is clearly bad practice and callous.



It wasn't declared a pandemic, but the government knew of the consequences of a likely pandemic and the advice given by WHO to China and other countries, yet chose to ignore it why didn't they start putting a plan into place as a precaution? What did SAGE do? they also knew it was coming, were they over ruled by bad advice from the political side which goes back to Dominic Cummings remarks, of course these remarks were denied well if you look at it now they would be.

I think its a bit rich to blame the general public, if the government failed to take it seriously why would the public? the lock down wasn't enforced, because we didn't have the manpower to enforce it, a sadly depleted police force that cant cope with day to day crime as it is, the forces depleted and overstretched, they couldn't of handled any civil unrest, of course now the government have the opportunity to direct blame elsewhere.

You speak of the spirit during the war years, we knew what the enemy was, what he was capable of due to his actions in other countries, we knew there was a possibility of an invasion we got ready for it, how has this government motivated us? the front line starved of equipment, confusing information and instructions, but there was during the war those that would seek to claim fame by gambling with the lives of others.

Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077296
14th May 2020 11:32am
14th May 2020 11:32am
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
One of my uncles was John Reid, if that helps whatever point you are trying to make????

That explains the staunch backing of Labour wink
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
UK: 0.049% of population have died of CV, mortality rate of disease 14.4%

The NHS wasn't overwhelmed so, maybe it is the lifestyle for the majority of deaths and why the mortality rate is so high, just a thought.


Anyway, I don't blame the Government.

Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077297
14th May 2020 11:45am
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Originally Posted by casper
I think its a bit rich to blame the general public, if the government failed to take it seriously why would the public?

It is too easy to blame the Government for everything. I for one, reckon the Government took it very seriously. I also agree with the easing of the lockdown and think Wales, Scotland and NI should have followed suit, but hey-ho, what do I know.
These are divisive times we are living in at the moment.

Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077299
14th May 2020 3:01pm
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This antibodies test seems like good news, at least a positive step I think. Does anybody else think that this virus was around end of last year? I have heard so many people say they had the same symptoms as this , me included, at this time. I remember the tirednesss and cough and saying to my family " like no flu I've ever had". It didn't last long but if this test becomes available to me I will definitely take it. I don't know whether it would tell you if it's too long ago or what . Obviously we will learn more about the antibody test as time goes by..

Last edited by cools; 14th May 2020 3:02pm.
Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077301
14th May 2020 6:46pm
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Originally Posted by cools
This antibodies test seems like good news, at least a positive step I think. Does anybody else think that this virus was around end of last year? I have heard so many people say they had the same symptoms as this , me included, at this time. I remember the tirednesss and cough and saying to my family " like no flu I've ever had". It didn't last long but if this test becomes available to me I will definitely take it. I don't know whether it would tell you if it's too long ago or what . Obviously we will learn more about the antibody test as time goes by..


I've also heard this a lot, it was just flu at the end of last year because the mortality rate doesn't tie-up with coronavirus. its relatively easy for flu to turn into pneumonia. It wasn't even coincidental, it was the regular flu season and we continued to have a large number of flu cases throughout the start of coronavirus.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077302
14th May 2020 8:55pm
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Well DD, You didn't say anything really in your previous post in response to mine. Not sure what points you were trying to make really. Being challenging and confrontational didn't make Corbyn strong . What gave you that idea ? It was all he could offer , every Wednesday in PMQ's.

I take it you mean Baron Reid of Cardowan ? A member of the UK 'Scottish' Government of Tony Blair ? Uncle ? He must have been a bit of a kid when you were born then ? Well, just like so many other Labour MP's he started off in the Communist Party. Congratulation anyway, my Gt grandfather was a 'Sir' and he entertained Lloyd George in his parlour to afternoon tea. I suppose Baron is a rank or few higher than a 'Sir', but I won't hold that against you.

However, it has to be said that you and Casper have obviously broken through Hadrians wall at some point , so maybe we must accept the Scottish anti -Tory sentiment, it is the norm for north of the border. Maybe it would be better if Scotland breaks away, I dare say it would also please you.. Good grief ! Who would want to be Governed by a Tory if they didn't have to be ?

Just as a matter if interest , when you quote percentages for specific purposes, how about covid cases per million population ?

Spain 584
Belgium 768
Italy 519
UK 495
US 262

So does that make it better ? No it does not, but population intensity seems to be something that neither you or Casper can come to terms with as a huge part of the ongoing numbers.
How is it that Care Homes still have cases? They've been in lockdown for 7/8 weeks now. No visitors, so where is it coming from ? The patients won't be passing it onto the care staff , not if the homes are following all the guidelines.

After that, I suppose I have to grovel and tell you I love you too. Love you. Casper seems to have taken the huff with me. I can tell in the words he uses.




Last edited by granny; 14th May 2020 9:08pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077303
14th May 2020 9:05pm
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Originally Posted by cools
This antibodies test seems like good news, at least a positive step I think. Does anybody else think that this virus was around end of last year? I have heard so many people say they had the same symptoms as this , me included, at this time. I remember the tirednesss and cough and saying to my family " like no flu I've ever had". It didn't last long but if this test becomes available to me I will definitely take it. I don't know whether it would tell you if it's too long ago or what . Obviously we will learn more about the antibody test as time goes by..



Yep. A few people at the beginning of this year in January. No deaths related to it though. One friend was knocked up for weeks, and is absolutely terrified of getting Covid 19. She knows she won't survive it. So has she had it already ? We wouldn't know, but she picked it up from her granddaughter..


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077308
15th May 2020 4:21am
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I've not followed what's gone on inside Belgium but been watching their basic stats for a long time, not good at all.

We will overtake Italy and probably just sneak ahead of Spain by August on the rates stats unless they are unfortunate enough to have major second waves that we avoid.

The population density of our major cities is not higher than most other major cities in Europe. Attempts at amalgamating stats was a bit fruitless because the classification is somewhat different in some countries, most pan-European stats count towns and cities as cities by the look of it hence France and UK have about 1000 cities whereas I think we only classify 59 for UK.

But Netherlands as a country has the highest population density in Europe and has some very dense cities. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are way ahead of us on population density both city-wise and country-wise.

I was reading the analysts report the other day on what was influencing factors for Coronavirus. Temperature has little effect, population density has a large effect followed by testing and travel.

New Zealand has done very well in locking down the virus but what does that leave it in the future? Permanent fear and controls? The 1990 pandemic of swine flu has now become our regular winter flu, its no longer a novel virus and so we have some built in immunity. Herd immunity or something similar with a different name does seem to be the only realistic long term strategy for coronavirus but I'm sure some relieving treatments (not cures) can be found in the shorter term which could improve outcomes.

The smoking stats across a number of countries are showing that it must be giving some protection either directly or indirectly. Likewise a surprisingly number of aged COPD suffers have unexpectedly made recovery from coronavirus. Adding those two things together plus some observations about ibuprofen makes you wonder if the common factor is people having inflamed lungs have some protection? Pure conjecture of course but its joining anomalies together.

Anyways, I'm a bit behind on the CV stuff now, I've had some other projects on the go and I've not even caught up on the new lockdown rules so I'll probably bow out of this one now, I haven't got the research time any longer.

And of course, I love you too granny ..... without grovelling...


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Coronavirus [Re: granny] #1077309
15th May 2020 8:10am
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[q

After that, I suppose I have to grovel and tell you I love you too. Love you. Casper seems to have taken the huff with me. I can tell in the words he uses.



[/quote]

Oh stop it granny, you know I still love you.

Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077327
16th May 2020 8:43am
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Sir Patrick Vallance the government chief scientific adviser said to keep the R number below one and control the virus, it is vital that people stay alert and continue to follow the latest government guidelines to the full.

Matt Hancock said the R number was an incredibly important figure but we don't think it is above one.


Government guidelines confused

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Re: Coronavirus [Re: cools] #1077350
17th May 2020 11:35am
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Restaurant/pub with outdoor seating - Bromborough
by CarterUSM. 7th Aug 2020 9:00pm
Restaurant/pub with outdoor seating - Bromborough
by CarterUSM. 7th Aug 2020 8:59pm
Hi everyone.
by Harp1st. 6th Aug 2020 12:16pm
A Stanworth Shop, Birkenhead North
by diggingdeeper. 6th Aug 2020 11:11am
Toll booths Birkenhead Tunnel
by mikeeb. 4th Aug 2020 2:34pm
For Sale & Free
Xbox One Console With RDR 2 And 22" LG TV
by rhoobarb2002. 6th Aug 2020 4:13pm
Roland U-20 Vintage 80s/90s RS-PCM Keyboard/Synth
by rhoobarb2002. 6th Aug 2020 3:41pm
Three light unit
by gerry1. 3rd Aug 2020 10:36am
Carlton Players Birkenhead Theatre Programmes
by NickWirral. 19th Jul 2020 8:54pm
Ipad Mini 5th Gen
by Catsick. 11th Jul 2020 1:58pm
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New Wirral Info
Restaurant/pub with outdoor seating - Bromborough
by CarterUSM. 7th Aug 2020 9:00pm
Restaurant/pub with outdoor seating - Bromborough
by CarterUSM. 7th Aug 2020 8:59pm
What Wood?
by rocks. 1st Aug 2020 7:12pm
Covid testing with certification on Wirral
by CarterUSM. 23rd Jul 2020 10:46am
Neowise comet
by mikeeb. 20th Jul 2020 9:04pm
News : New Topics
New Merseyrail trains covered in graffiti
by mikeeb. 28th Jul 2020 6:38pm
Found bicycle seat cover
by BultacoAstro. 25th Jul 2020 10:43am
Regeneration of New Ferry
by Excoriator. 24th Jul 2020 3:53pm
Painted frontages of new Ferry Shops.
by Excoriator. 23rd Jul 2020 11:29pm
Eastham Train Station
by BultacoAstro. 11th Jul 2020 8:26am
New Enthusiast Forums
Advice Needed Hellcat Carrera rear Wheel
by BultacoAstro. 28th Jul 2020 11:04am
River Mersey , then and now
by cools. 23rd Jul 2020 7:19pm
What is sitting on roof
by BultacoAstro. 9th Jul 2020 11:03am
Cruel ear cropping breeders moved to Bromborough
by venice. 21st Mar 2019 4:10pm
Bultaco pursang
by Bultaco. 13th Mar 2019 12:43pm
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