WikiWirral 16yrs online 24/7 365 days a year.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,027,132
Topics75,511
Members13,443
Forums65
Posts in last 24hrs10
Most Online14,906
Nov 23rd, 2019
Who's Online Now
37 registered members (7 invisible), 1,291 guests, and177 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
New General Forums
McDonald's Haven't any Empathy
by BultacoAstro. 13th Jul 2020 1:20pm
Masks and gloves
by cools. 7th Jul 2020 9:35am
White House UK
by casper. 3rd Jul 2020 9:37am
Portable bogs blown over
by mikeeb. 30th Jun 2020 1:02pm
New Wirral History
The new 4 bridges.
by mikeeb. 7th Jul 2020 4:10pm
Ron Gittins Stories ?
by DaDoRon. 2nd Jul 2020 9:59pm
Outdoor swimming pools
by mikeeb. 30th Jun 2020 4:26pm
1888-1913 map overlay
by mikeeb. 19th Jun 2020 2:04pm
Satellite images 1971-73
by mikeeb. 11th Jun 2020 5:45pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Boaty McBoatface takes shape
The gathering storm: Mersey waterfront today
Topic Replies
Coronavirus
by mikeeb. 13th Jul 2020 5:30pm
Nintendo Switch Console plus accessories/games
by Catsick. 13th Jul 2020 12:14pm
Ipad Mini 5th Gen
by Catsick. 13th Jul 2020 12:14pm
Complaint
by BultacoAstro. 13th Jul 2020 9:02am
Team Xecuter Dual Nand Xbox 360 for sale PLUS
by TudorBlue. 12th Jul 2020 12:53am
Brexit Transition
by granny. 11th Jul 2020 11:39pm
Computer Desk
by Catsick. 11th Jul 2020 9:37am
5 Dapol Plastic Locomotive OO Gauge Kits
by Catsick. 11th Jul 2020 9:37am
HP Envy 13" laptop I5-7200U 8gb MX150 240gb ssd
by Catsick. 11th Jul 2020 9:37am
July
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
walking group
by lincle. 18th Jun 2020 7:59pm
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rate Topic
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073923
18th Jan 2020 6:26pm
18th Jan 2020 6:26pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,721
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,721
wirral
You stop squealing by reducing the wheelbase - the distance between the two axles -on the bogies. If remember rightly, the loop line curves were designed with new rolling stock which had shorter wheelbases but shortly before they were delivered, the order was diverted to the London Underground! Liverpool got refurbished 508s

The new trains should surely be designed with shorter wheelbases, If no, I'd like to know why not!

Google Ads
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073927
18th Jan 2020 8:47pm
18th Jan 2020 8:47pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
The problem is also how much angle the bogies can turn, trains just aren't supposed to be on long bends with a 210m radius. Shorter stock would help reduce the amount of steer required. To improve stability and vibration the bogeys have to have a centralising force and can't be allowed to free-steer.

The RAIB in 2006 was not able to identify any trains that would cope with the loop significantly better than the 508s


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073939
19th Jan 2020 1:43pm
19th Jan 2020 1:43pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,721
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,721
wirral
What about 2020?

It is certainly possible to do it. It should have been item 1 in the requirements specification included with the tendering information.

I believe the carriages are shorter, maybe that will help

It's hard to see, but looking at the video in Stafford, you can get a glimpse of the bogies and they DO look a bit shorter!

Last edited by Excoriator; 19th Jan 2020 1:46pm.
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: Excoriator] #1073946
19th Jan 2020 5:00pm
19th Jan 2020 5:00pm
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 733
Wallasey
Norton Online Reading

Veteran
Norton  Online Reading

Veteran
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 733
Wallasey
To quote Merseyrail about the new trains ...

"They will be a real transformation – state-of-the-art, safe, faster and comfortable and will be able to carry more people, more quickly, supporting the economic growth of the City Region.

The trains will be easier to get on and off, as we introduce unassisted access across the entirety of the new fleet. Journeys will be quicker, with up to nine minutes off the journey between Hunts Cross and Southport. The trains will be more reliable, easier to keep clean and will have the latest technology such as intelligent air conditioning.

There will be more space for disabled passengers, bikes, pushchairs and luggage and the train will be bright and open with no doors separating carriages. The trains will be slightly longer and made up of four carriages, rather than three and slightly more seats than now. "

Ok, who spotted the four carriages in the video? Well, there are four slightly shorter carriages - but if you were counting doors, then note that the end carriages only have one pair of doors per side, not two.

If you went to see the mock-up last year, then you would have noticed that the carriage floor was lower in the centre. To me, on the mock-up, the floor seemed to ramp up to clear the bogies at each end, but the publicity pictures don't seem to show that. And as we all know, the platforms were raised to make up the height difference. Well, other countries manage.

I've not seen any info on the bogies and motors, so far and I don't know how they measure a wheelbase when you have four axles. There's the wheelbase of the two axles on each of the bogies, and then there is the distance between the pivot points on each carriage, and I suppose the distance between the end bogie of one carriage to the next could be a factor, but it all adds up. I do know that the earlier 502's & 503's, together with the outgoing 507's & 508's that replaced them, all have 36" diameter steel tyres on their wheels. Naturally, it's the flange of the wheel against the inside of the rail that causes the squealing.

If I remember correctly, the 502's & 503's were using the 'Loop & Link' line before the 507's & 508's were delivered. Again, if I remember correctly, there were two problems. The old trains had difficulty getting up the incline from Moorfields going north and emerging from under Leeds St, which was reportedly one of the steepest inclines. The second problem was the squealing on the Loop Line, which seemed worse with the newer trains.

The strange thing is, squealing occurs at other places - even on straight sections that were designed and built for steam trains to operate on, and they had much larger wheels.
Need an example? Stand on Park Station platform and wait for the train from Liverpool. It squeals as it arrives. The track is virtually straight and flat and even the inside edges of the tracks have been greased!

I think there's more to this than just a 210m radius.

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073947
19th Jan 2020 6:23pm
19th Jan 2020 6:23pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
The new trains are longer because of four carriages but there lies another problem, they are too long for some stations! Presumably not all the doors will open at some stations, if you want to get off you will have to make sure you are not at the wrong door.

Yes, you are correct Norton the 502/503 stayed in operation for some years after the Liverpool Loop was built. You are also correct on the gradient 1:29, anything classed steeper than 1:75 is classed as extraordinary steep, no main line railways are anywhere near as steep.

Some of the squealing on the 508s may be due to bushes which wear much faster than most trains, the service interval is markedly short and are frequently found to be worn out.

The last time I went on the London Tube the trains were virtually silent from inside, Merseyrail is an embarrassment in this day and age.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073951
19th Jan 2020 7:04pm
19th Jan 2020 7:04pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,625
Birkenhead
J
jimbob Offline

Forum Addict
jimbob  Offline

Forum Addict
J
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,625
Birkenhead
Have you taken into consideration the tight curves on the underground loop line which means the rails themselves are been worn out quicker on the loop than on the rest of the underground section


Ships that pass in the night, seldom seen and soon forgoten
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073952
19th Jan 2020 7:07pm
19th Jan 2020 7:07pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,625
Birkenhead
J
jimbob Offline

Forum Addict
jimbob  Offline

Forum Addict
J
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,625
Birkenhead
added to the loop section of rails wearing faster, also the flange edge of the wheel on the bogies al well.


Ships that pass in the night, seldom seen and soon forgoten
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1073959
19th Jan 2020 10:05pm
19th Jan 2020 10:05pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
They used to use a different type of rail on the loop.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: diggingdeeper] #1073961
20th Jan 2020 10:20am
20th Jan 2020 10:20am
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,180
Oxton
Gibbo Offline
Forum Addict
Gibbo  Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,180
Oxton
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The new trains are longer because of four carriages but there lies another problem, they are too long for some stations! Presumably not all the doors will open at some stations, if you want to get off you will have to make sure you are not at the wrong door.


There may also be an issue with signaling:

https://lbndaily.co.uk/merseytravel-rejects-claim-delays-roll-new-460m-train-fleet/

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: Gibbo] #1073967
20th Jan 2020 1:23pm
20th Jan 2020 1:23pm
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 733
Wallasey
Norton Online Reading

Veteran
Norton  Online Reading

Veteran
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 733
Wallasey
As I said before, the end carriages only have one pair of passenger doors per side. They no longer have doors only a few rows of seats back from the drivers cab. Therefore you will still have six pairs of passenger doors per side opening out in roughly the same platform space as before. I imagine the '3 Car Stop' and the '6 Car Stop' platform signs will need to be changed.

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1077215
11th May 2020 7:33pm
11th May 2020 7:33pm
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 7
Kirkdale
M
mburdett555 Offline OP
Beginner
mburdett555  Offline OP
Beginner
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 7
Kirkdale
Apologies for the bump, but unit 777004 (the second of the new trains to be delivered) SHOULD be delivered to Kirkdale depot in the early hours of Thursday morning

Timings: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=H01440&d=13/05/2020

It does unfortunately stay at Crewe sidings for most of the day, running under the cover of darkness same as before, as seen in the timetable.

It's not in England yet but it should arrive through the channel tunnel tomorrow (Tuesday).


Hi, I'm Matt.
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: Gibbo] #1077239
12th May 2020 12:58pm
12th May 2020 12:58pm
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,012
birkenhead
mikeeb Offline

Forum Guide
mikeeb  Offline

Forum Guide
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,012
birkenhead
Originally Posted by Gibbo
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The new trains are longer because of four carriages but there lies another problem, they are too long for some stations! Presumably not all the doors will open at some stations, if you want to get off you will have to make sure you are not at the wrong door.


There may also be an issue with signaling:

https://lbndaily.co.uk/merseytravel-rejects-claim-delays-roll-new-460m-train-fleet/


Redaing through this, it looks like the issue is with the eight car setup and not the 4 car

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1077243
12th May 2020 4:01pm
12th May 2020 4:01pm
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 7
Kirkdale
M
mburdett555 Offline OP
Beginner
mburdett555  Offline OP
Beginner
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 7
Kirkdale
Originally Posted by mburdett555
Apologies for the bump, but unit 777004 (the second of the new trains to be delivered) SHOULD be delivered to Kirkdale depot in the early hours of Thursday morning

Timings: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=R02276&d=13/05/2020

It does unfortunately stay at Crewe sidings for most of the day, running under the cover of darkness same as before, as seen in the timetable.

It's not in England yet but it should arrive through the channel tunnel tomorrow (Tuesday).


A Revised times link below as the one from yesterday in my post has been invalidated by a newer schedule.
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=R02276&d=13/05/2020

Last edited by mburdett555; 12th May 2020 4:02pm. Reason: Old timings for 777 delivery made obsolete by network rail

Hi, I'm Matt.
Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1077244
12th May 2020 4:22pm
12th May 2020 4:22pm
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,012
birkenhead
mikeeb Offline

Forum Guide
mikeeb  Offline

Forum Guide
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,012
birkenhead
Originally Posted by mburdett555
Originally Posted by mburdett555


A Revised times link below as the one from yesterday in my post has been invalidated by a newer schedule.
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=R02276&d=13/05/2020


The 2 links exactly the same Matt

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail [Re: mburdett555] #1077443
20th May 2020 6:52am
20th May 2020 6:52am
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 7
Kirkdale
M
mburdett555 Offline OP
Beginner
mburdett555  Offline OP
Beginner
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 7
Kirkdale
Third unit ON ITS WAY today, train number 777007.
I understand some of them have been undergoing testing on the network under the cover of darkness. I don't have any further information on that

Last edited by mburdett555; 20th May 2020 6:53am.

Hi, I'm Matt.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Eastham Train Station
by BultacoAstro. 11th Jul 2020 8:26am
Wirral rocks
by GaryFromWirral. 9th Jul 2020 6:35pm
What is sitting on roof
by BultacoAstro. 9th Jul 2020 11:03am
The new 4 bridges.
by mikeeb. 7th Jul 2020 4:10pm
Incident in the Rods
by mikeeb. 6th Jul 2020 7:30pm
For Sale & Free
Ipad Mini 5th Gen
by Catsick. 11th Jul 2020 1:58pm
Nintendo Switch Console plus accessories/games
by Catsick. 11th Jul 2020 8:38am
VHS TAPES FREE
by Reno37. 28th Jun 2020 2:48pm
Small woodcutting bandsaw
by gerrymoore. 26th Jun 2020 5:44pm
samsung s10e
by stumpyduck. 22nd Jun 2020 12:10pm
Member Spotlight
Moonstar
Moonstar
Wirral
Posts: 1,358
Joined: July 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Vancouver, DW1980, Mazzy01, StephenMurray, Rosehearty
13443 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
lasherlal (46)
New Wirral Info
Wirral rocks
by GaryFromWirral. 9th Jul 2020 6:35pm
hairdressers
by lincle. 5th Jul 2020 8:52am
Buying a PUB
by BultacoAstro. 3rd Jul 2020 11:24am
Complaint
by BultacoAstro. 25th Jun 2020 11:02am
Telephone cable repair
by vampy1977. 15th Jun 2020 11:14am
News : New Topics
Eastham Train Station
by BultacoAstro. 11th Jul 2020 8:26am
Incident in the Rods
by mikeeb. 6th Jul 2020 7:30pm
Possible delays to bin collections
by mikeeb. 29th Jun 2020 1:55pm
New Clatterbridge Cancer Centre Liverpool
by mikeeb. 29th Jun 2020 12:19pm
Armed forces day
by cools. 27th Jun 2020 10:26am
New Enthusiast Forums
What is sitting on roof
by BultacoAstro. 9th Jul 2020 11:03am
SAE 140
by Pete_M. 27th Jun 2020 10:36pm
Let Lucy Go !
by granny. 20th Jun 2020 6:02pm
Willaston
by Erainn. 19th Jun 2020 3:48pm
Staffie missing
by lincle. 19th Jun 2020 11:13am
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Mon 5:01am
Sunset Mon 9:35pm
Local Time Mon 6:50pm
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1