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Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071504
12th Sep 2019 6:31pm
12th Sep 2019 6:31pm
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
How is it scare mongering? the governments own document has laid this bare as a reasonable forecast after first denying it, I don't think its comical


Its a worse case scenario, the same would apply at any time not just Brexit. The media are sensationalising this as "what is to be expected", that is perverting the intent of the document.

At the end of the day, neither side wants to stop the trade across the border, especially the EU, the balance of trade is in their favour. Why would they stop trade movement???



I think the wording was, reasonable worst case scenario, what could be expected might be a more correct evaluation, if the yellowhammer document wasn't damaging then why refuse to publish it? and yes you are quite right neither side wants to stop trade, its the logistics that would / will cause the worst problems, do you honestly think BJ is doing this for the good of the country, perhaps he was way ahead when he purchased the water cannon we paid for, always a method in their madness, underneath the jolly japes lies a very dangerous man.

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Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071505
12th Sep 2019 8:03pm
12th Sep 2019 8:03pm
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Whatever BJ's motives it seems the outcome he wanted matched the democratic outcome of the UK.

Do I think he's capable of being PM of the country? no, but that doesn't mean he is going to be wrong all the time.

The public voted to leave the UK
Parliament voted to leave the EU on more than one location.
We had laws (more than one) to leave the EU.

Nobody voted to half-leave the EU.
Parliament have never voted to half-leave the EU.
There have never been any laws to half-leave the EU.

The public voted against staying in the EU.
Parliament did not vote to stay in the EU.
There are no laws to stay in the EU.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071506
12th Sep 2019 11:16pm
12th Sep 2019 11:16pm
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....and Blair and Mandelson are still tinkering about behind the screens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-PsBG-tvXxoqZZ_HEa-r7HhIzLKqNAvNJpstV6ds


I watched the Politics Show today. An ex KGB Agent was on it. He now owns the Evening Standard and the Independent newspapers . Although he said he has no input into what those papers report, when asked to give a yes or no answer to whether or not Russian money is undermining democracy in this country, his answer was 'yes'.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071508
13th Sep 2019 9:54am
13th Sep 2019 9:54am
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wallasey
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


Whatever BJ's motives it seems the outcome he wanted matched the democratic outcome of the UK.

Do I think he's capable of being PM of the country? no, but that doesn't mean he is going to be wrong all the time.

The public voted to leave the UK
Parliament voted to leave the EU on more than one location.
We had laws (more than one) to leave the EU.

Nobody voted to half-leave the EU.
Parliament have never voted to half-leave the EU.
There have never been any laws to half-leave the EU.

The public voted against staying in the EU.
Parliament did not vote to stay in the EU.
There are no laws to stay in the EU.


The public voted to leave the EU, and when that vote was taken, it did not exclude us from being members of the single market, the customs union or some kind of relationship to follow on ( do you consider this as half leaving?), however May changed this with her red lines and things had to be done within a specified time frame, so what was then a simple yes or no with options, has progressed to the tangled web of article 50.

As to BJ's motives he has now seen support for a no deal drop away rapidly and keeps repeating that he is desperately seeking a deal, yet there is no evidence of this from any quarter, so now from promoting himself as the saviour of brexit and the hopes of becoming a great PM who led us out of the desert of Europe, he is isolated with his gang, which I can see dwindling as the trappings of power slip away after riding high on the coat tails of the leave voters, and believing that they and they alone would carry him to power.

Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: casper] #1071509
13th Sep 2019 11:06am
13th Sep 2019 11:06am
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diggingdeeper Offline OP

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Originally Posted by casper
The public voted to leave the EU, and when that vote was taken, it did not exclude us from being members of the single market, the customs union or some kind of relationship to follow on ( do you consider this as half leaving?),


When the EU still controls what goes on INSIDE our borders and/or our relationship with other non-EU countries then that is wrong, the leave vote was clearly a vote of independence. There has not been any deal yet which has come close to making us independent, we would remain a subservient non-sovereign state of the EU.

BJ was a fall guy who was carefully chosen because if he self-destructed it wouldn't also take down the Tory party. That is how manipulative the Tories are, they don't put their best people up front in case they get shot down.

As to the remainers refusal to acknowledge the half-leave concept, if it was all reversed and we had voted to remain but the Government had started to negotiate a lesser integrated deal with the EU, the remainers would be up in arms.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: granny] #1071513
13th Sep 2019 12:48pm
13th Sep 2019 12:48pm
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wallasey
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


Whatever BJ's motives it seems the outcome he wanted matched the democratic outcome of the UK.

Do I think he's capable of being PM of the country? no, but that doesn't mean he is going to be wrong all the time.

The public voted to leave the UK
Parliament voted to leave the EU on more than one location.
We had laws (more than one) to leave the EU.

Nobody voted to half-leave the EU.
Parliament have never voted to half-leave the EU.
There have never been any laws to half-leave the EU.

The public voted against staying in the EU.
Parliament did not vote to stay in the EU.
There are no laws to stay in the EU.


The public voted to leave the EU, and when that vote was taken, it did not exclude us from being members of the single market, the customs union or some kind of relationship to follow on ( do you consider this as half leaving?), however May changed this with her red lines and things had to be done within a specified time frame, so what was then a simple yes or no with options, has progressed to the tangled web of article 50.

As to BJ's motives he has now seen support for a no deal drop away rapidly and keeps repeating that he is desperately seeking a deal, yet there is no evidence of this from any quarter, so now from promoting himself as the saviour of brexit and the hopes of becoming a great PM who led us out of the desert of Europe, he is isolated with his gang, which I can see dwindling as the trappings of power slip away after riding high on the coat tails of the leave voters, and believing that they and they alone would carry him to power.
Originally Posted by granny


....and Blair and Mandelson are still tinkering about behind the screens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-PsBG-tvXxoqZZ_HEa-r7HhIzLKqNAvNJpstV6ds


I watched the Politics Show today. An ex KGB Agent was on it. He now owns the Evening Standard and the Independent newspapers . Although he said he has no input into what those papers report, when asked to give a yes or no answer to whether or not Russian money is undermining democracy in this country, his answer was 'yes'.



Oh granny the Russians have been undermining us since the end of WW2, its nothing new, I seem to remember the comments on this forum about the Novichok incident when many comments on here poo pooed the idea of Russian involvement rather believing it was a leak from Porton Down,no doubt there are many in the hierarchy that have availed themselves of Russian money and influence to add to their portfolio's, mmmm Profumo springs to mind.

Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071514
13th Sep 2019 2:11pm
13th Sep 2019 2:11pm
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The point I am making DD is yes we voted to leave, if everyone voted to leave without any opposition and the government then said however will still carry on being members of the common market ? customs union, would you consider that defying the vote of the people? because in the referendum there was no mention that this could or couldn't happen, well there wasn't much mention of anything really was there? just two choices, yes or no.

Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071516
13th Sep 2019 4:48pm
13th Sep 2019 4:48pm
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diggingdeeper Offline OP

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We voted to leave their jurisdiction, it was never in any question that we would end up with some sort of trade deal, of course we would/will.

BUT there is no way that the EU should legally control what happens inside our borders, especially if we have no part in the process that decides those legal controls. There is no way the EU should be part of our law making process, if they are we most certainly haven't left the EU.

Can you think of any example where you leave an organisation yet they still have control over your life as though you had never left? Or an organisation where you have to pay them much more than your normal annual fees to be allowed to leave? Its like an alternative universe where every concept is suddenly reversed!

I've been a member of all sorts of organisations and part-owner in others, when I left, I left, if they wanted control over me they would have to pay me for the privilege and it would be my choice whether to accept or not.

We have been a massive cash-cow to the EU, in what way have we benefited from the huge amount of money we have sunk into the EU? They should be thanking us for everything we have given to them and wishing us well for the future.

I bet you can't name one thing your MEP has voted on and know which way they voted, ninety something percent of the country can't name their MEP. The EU is autonomous and undemocratic, Its a hidden level of Government that we have no control over and our attempts at leaving have demonstrated that more than ever.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071517
13th Sep 2019 6:30pm
13th Sep 2019 6:30pm
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wallasey
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And do you think we would get a trade deal DD with Boris telling them they can whistle for any money owed? from my experience you don't go into negotiations banging the table, and yes apathy has a lot to do with the state of the country, never mind naming MEPS most cant name their local MP, they have more interest in supporting a local football team, the only time people are interested is when an unpopular piece of legislation hits them (poll Tax), but its to late then the damage is done.

Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071518
13th Sep 2019 8:48pm
13th Sep 2019 8:48pm
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diggingdeeper Offline OP

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There is absolutely no doubt that we will have a trade deal with the EU.

Its not apathy, its careful manipulation by the Tories (and I include Blairites in that title) and the media to disorientate the general public.

Most of the successful businessmen are table bangers.

We do not owe the EU one penny, that is a complete fallacy. The EU budget is set annually with a long term strategy set in six year intervals, the current long term strategy runs out in 2020. How can we be held to payments that have not even been budgeted yet? The EU's income varies, they adjust the budget to match, we leave, they get less money, they have to adapt.

We may have to pay UK MEP pensions but that will then be a UK payment, not an EU payment, we cannot "owe" the EU that money.

I notice you have not answered "We have been a massive cash-cow to the EU, in what way have we benefited from the huge amount of money we have sunk into the EU?".


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071524
14th Sep 2019 4:20pm
14th Sep 2019 4:20pm
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I still believe the Skripal case was constructed for a specific purpose and by us or the CIA, Casper . Far too many discrepancies that have not been answered.

Now we have Jo Swinson hoping to revoke Article 50. New brooms sweep clean.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071526
14th Sep 2019 6:10pm
14th Sep 2019 6:10pm
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wallasey
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
There is absolutely no doubt that we will have a trade deal with the EU.

Its not apathy, its careful manipulation by the Tories (and I include Blairites in that title) and the media to disorientate the general public.

Most of the successful businessmen are table bangers.

We do not owe the EU one penny, that is a complete fallacy. The EU budget is set annually with a long term strategy set in six year intervals, the current long term strategy runs out in 2020. How can we be held to payments that have not even been budgeted yet? The EU's income varies, they adjust the budget to match, we leave, they get less money, they have to adapt.

We may have to pay UK MEP pensions but that will then be a UK payment, not an EU payment, we cannot "owe" the EU that money.

I notice you have not answered "We have been a massive cash-cow to the EU, in what way have we benefited from the huge amount of money we have sunk into the EU?".


The Owen owens money I believe came from the deal made by TM that we would pay x amounts cant think of the figure off hand if we left before 2020, don't know if it still stands, details were very scarce, who knows what has been agreed ? and yes we pay a lot of money into the EU, and so do other countries that wish to trade with the EU but are not member's ( friends without benefits), not that it makes it right, we have had benefits back via the public and private sector but yes we pay in more than we get out, but I'll say this better the devil you know.

So you forecast we will have a trade deal with the EU, but we will still be paying money in without anything in return and maybe free movement and other bits and bobs, we have to weigh the good against the bad, it will be all in the detail.

Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071535
14th Sep 2019 8:49pm
14th Sep 2019 8:49pm
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diggingdeeper Offline OP

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All in good time, after Brexit, the EU needs a trade deal more than we do. France is trying to step up to take over from Germany as the dominent power, if you look at France's economy that isn't going to last long.

The "divorce bill" that has been calculated is largely for money way into the future (up to 2028), normal payments up to 2020and the much smaller amount for pensions. It didn't take into account we are shared owners of many EU assets.

The normal payments were calculated as gross but minus the UK rebate, it did not deduct for money the UK would have normally have "received" from the EU and the EU has placed conditions on us qualifying for such money. Not that we really receive any money from the EU, it is our money and it always stays in the UK.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071603
23rd Sep 2019 9:51pm
23rd Sep 2019 9:51pm
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The Labour Party Conference voted against Remain. I always thought the average socialist would be against the EU and it was a media Blairite myth that they were pro-EU.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Defend Democracy Protests [Re: diggingdeeper] #1071606
24th Sep 2019 8:00am
24th Sep 2019 8:00am
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Oh dear ! Where does that leave Owen Jones and all the other red faced clowns ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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