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Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1032364
14th Mar 2017 5:16pm
14th Mar 2017 5:16pm
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Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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I took the right hand side as being signatures/sign-offs which are mostly the same as those on the bottom line.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
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Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1032387
14th Mar 2017 9:23pm
14th Mar 2017 9:23pm
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granny Offline
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I've not had any luck with that link either Dusty.

However, I have found this below and some of the language is not what we would recognise anyway at that particular time.

e.g Kyne = plural of cow. I think I can see kyne listed on the inventory I posted. So not holding out much hope of deciphering much more.

As an example, same year 1606 :

http://www.boydhouse.com/alice/Green/green06dgrangerancestors.html


[Linked Image]

Imprimis one oxe liijs iiijd

Item twoe kyne iij vis viijd

Item one heifer & a calfe xxxiijd iijd

Item xiii tene old shepe & fower lambes xls

Item six swine xiijs iijd

Item one gelding xxvis iifd

Item geese & pultree iifs

Item corne in the barne xxxiijs iijjd

Item corne on the ground xxs

Item brasse & pewter xxs

Item hey in the barne xxs

Item bedding & all coprie ware xls

Item wooll in the house xs

Item hempe & flax & yearow vs

Item all trewe wooden vessels iijs iiijd

Item ___ about the house iijs iiijd

Item horses cobbarte & other iron stuffe ijs vjd

Item the vesell of the dead xxs

Item money in the house xs

Item tables, forms, chayres, & cubbords & all other things unpraysedvs

Summa totals xxjt viijs xd



DD, I think they have been marked & signed off, and I think the dots are between the ú....shillings....pence as in this one of James Birdd, Poulton in 1617 .




Attached Files
WIN_20170314_164326.JPG (75 downloads)
WIN_20170314_212953.JPG (73 downloads)
Last edited by granny; 14th Mar 2017 9:32pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1032388
14th Mar 2017 9:37pm
14th Mar 2017 9:37pm
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granny Offline
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Whatever else they did, it would seem they all had almost identical handwriting !

Did they deal in shillings and pence or groats back then ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1032402
15th Mar 2017 12:47am
15th Mar 2017 12:47am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,470
Birkenhead
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Groats were a coin equal to fourpence, the accounts were pounds shillings and pence from the 8th century onwards (apart from the odd trades that used guineas).

1606 would be bang in the centre of the 100 year abstinence from minting groats.

I had no idea about the letter J being used in Roman Numerals .....

Quote
The letter J originated as a swash letter I, used for the letter I at the end of Roman numerals when following another I, as in XXIIJ instead of XXIII for the Roman numeral representing 23

Last edited by diggingdeeper; 15th Mar 2017 12:53am.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: granny] #1062823
6th Dec 2018 1:10am
6th Dec 2018 1:10am
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compozz Offline
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May I ask you a question about this post?

Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: compozz] #1062824
6th Dec 2018 1:52am
6th Dec 2018 1:52am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,470
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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Originally Posted by compozz
May I ask you a question about this post?


You have already asked one question, I can see no harm in asking two.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1062833
6th Dec 2018 5:38pm
6th Dec 2018 5:38pm
Joined: Dec 2018
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compozz Offline
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Thank you. The message concerns descent of the Bird House in Poulton and was directed to Granny and/or Marty99Fred, who I can't PM but who seem to really know their source materials. I think the speculation from the latter was that the property passed from Robert Williamson to William Bird and Margaret/Margery Bird some time after 1665, then passed to their son Joseph on William's death in 1711. Do either have any actual sources that JOSEPH BIRD - who is connected to the Vyner lease of 25th November 1717 - was the child of William and Margaret?

There's a deceased Henry Bird who was mentioned in the property description, who is probably the Henry Bird ÔÇťof PoultonÔÇŁ that married Mary Dunn, 6/24/1662 and is mentioned in a church collection @ Wallasey 23 Jul 1671 and as church warden of same on 10 Sep 1671, as well as valuer of the estate of Jane Litherland of Birkenhead Leys @ Poulton, 1675. He looks to be a brother of WILLIAM though I haven't come across any actual documentation that substantiates it, merely inference. Trying to separate these lines of descent has been problematic, so I'm wondering if they have any actual sources.

Great research, and thanks again.

USA-Byrd

Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1062839
6th Dec 2018 10:10pm
6th Dec 2018 10:10pm
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,279
Wirral
granny Offline
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Can I ask where your line of descent begins and what the dates are. The reason I ask is because, throughout the UK there were many families by the name of Byrd/Bird/Brydd.. and many not connected.
Don't want you to go on a wild goose chase .
I have got quite a lot of the family tree in a box somewhere , so I could possibly help you if it's the correct line. Most of my records were taken from the Parish registers.
It's so complicated with numerous William's, Henry's and others, I really need to know what or who you are stuck with.

The Bird family of Poulton/Wallasey were my father's direct ancestors.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1062840
6th Dec 2018 10:21pm
6th Dec 2018 10:21pm
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compozz Offline
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Thank you for the reply and I appreciate your help. Detailed response within the hour.

Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1062860
8th Dec 2018 2:45am
8th Dec 2018 2:45am
Joined: Jun 2011
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granny Offline
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Well folks, I'm sorry to have to do this, but just about ready to throw a spanner in the works. laugh

Bird's House... Williamsons Croft. William Bird passed on to William's son so we get William son Croft clap clap

The Great Rebuilding was between 1570 and 1640. which could in all honesty contribute to the date stone, being 1621, and the way the house looks as if it has been extended above the first level.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1062879
8th Dec 2018 6:09pm
8th Dec 2018 6:09pm
Joined: May 2011
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Interesting that this should crop up now, I passed the house the other day and thought how tidy it was looking - pointing done, windows etc - am very glad it's being cared for. Good luck with the family tree - there are pitfalls aplenty in doing anything like that, as I've found out myself.

Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: Greenwood] #1062881
8th Dec 2018 6:38pm
8th Dec 2018 6:38pm
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 16,279
Wirral
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There was a thread showing the alterations that had been made for parking cars. I hope they haven't taken the beautiful fig tree down. That has as much to do with the house and it's previous occupants, as anything else.

Bird's being people of the church, a fig tree is a symbol of the 'the tree of knowledge' . Too late if it has gone, but I do hope it hasn't.


Last edited by granny; 8th Dec 2018 6:39pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: hoseman] #1062891
9th Dec 2018 12:36pm
9th Dec 2018 12:36pm
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,355
Wallasey Village
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I have always been surprised when my (small, tub grown) fig tree produces fruit, as it has for the last 3-4 years. Not many fruits, 8 this year, but interesting.

I always associate figs with growing in a hot climate because I used to see the trees growing by their thousands, literally, in South America. where green figs + cheese is a common snack. Most of "our" shop figs come from Turkey and are brown figs - still good with cheese.

We tend to forget that at this time of the year the climate in the far end of the MED is not amazingly different from UK ie can be cold. Pics refugee camps/ snow in Syria emphasise the issue.

Snod


5 Precepts of Buddhism seem appropriate. Refrain from taking life. Refrain from taking that which is not given. Refrain from misconduct. Refrain from lying. Refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: Snodvan] #1062892
9th Dec 2018 5:31pm
9th Dec 2018 5:31pm
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It is cold over there. I remember , after having a terrible trip up the Bosphorus when we thought our end had come, we arrived at Istanbul somewhere around the beginning of January ,and it was snowing, as in snowstorm ! Freezing too !
A few days later we sailed onto Izmir, where it was like summer, although not hot.
Syria does get very cold and snow, from what I can gather.
Look after your little fig tree. Olive trees are another from the same regions, and frost resilient. Symbolic of peace, hence 'holding out the olive branch' .

Last edited by granny; 9th Dec 2018 5:34pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: BIRDS HOUSE [Re: marty99fred] #1063990
12th Jan 2019 11:37pm
12th Jan 2019 11:37pm
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granny Offline
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Originally Posted by marty99fred
I´┐Żve had another look at Thomas Taylor´┐Żs Survey of Bidston Manor with regard to the date, and the main map showing all the manorial lands is clearly dated 1656. Several of the larger scale maps are dated 1665, whilst others, including the one of Poulton, are undated. I think the correct date is generally assumed to be 1665 because Lord Kingston, for whom the survey was supposedly carried out, didn´┐Żt purchase the Manor until 1662.

The survey volume also contains several pages of valuations, together with various amendments and marginal notes, added at later dates. Most of these appear to have been written by Robert Vyner MP (one memorandum begins with the words ´┐ŻI Robert Vyner...´┐Ż), to whom the Manor passed following the death of Sir Robert Vyner in September 1688.

One page is headed ´┐ŻMy Computation of the Value of the Severall [ie separate] Tenements if out of Lease allowing for Taxes which the Tenant pays & all other deductions made in 1719´┐Ż to which has been added ´┐Ż& reviewed in 1736´┐Ż in a distinctive shaky handwriting. The only entry for Poulton-cum-Seacombe is the name ´┐ŻJoseph Bird´┐Ż, which has been subsequently crossed out and had ´┐ŻHester Moor´┐Ż written alongside it. The words ´┐Żnow Torbet Walter Kirkpatrick´┐Ż have then been added underneath by the person with the shaky hand, presumably in 1736. [The word Torbet is uncertain; as I say the handwriting is very shaky and difficult to read, but that´┐Żs what it looks like.].

A further section is headed ´┐ŻOld Rents chief rents & Cottages´┐Ż with ´┐ŻOld Rents reformed in 1762´┐Ż inserted below. Here under Poulton the name ´┐ŻJoseph Bird´┐Ż appears followed by ´┐ŻWalter Kirkpatrick´┐Ż, written by old shaky hand, and ´┐Żnow Gordon´┐Ż written in yet another hand.

Three more pages follow containing a similar ´┐ŻComputation of the Value of the Several Tenements...´┐Ż this time made in 1762. Here under Poulton the only name is that of ´┐ŻWalter Kirkpatrick´┐Ż.

I´┐Żm not exactly sure how to interpret all of this, but I´┐Żll have a go. It looks as if at some point tenancy of the Vyner lands in Poulton passed from William Bird to Joseph Bird (possibly with other Birds in between). Then in about 1719 or shortly thereafter the tenancy passed to Hester Moor, possibly only briefly, before ending up with Walter Kirkpatrick, who was the tenant in 1736, when the Valuation was reviewed, and still there in 1762, when the second Valuation Schedule was drawn up. William Kirkpatrick was then followed as tenant by ´┐ŻGordon´┐Ż, possibly the James Gordon who appears in the Table of Reference in my earlier post with the maps. All this is pure conjecture, of course, but at least we have some more possible names of tenants for the property!

One interesting point is that the Bird family´┐Żs tenancy seems not to have lasted much longer than a couple of generations; I envisaged something more akin to 150 years or so, given the property´┐Żs usual name. It is possible therefore that the name Bird´┐Żs House is of fairly recent origin, possibly originating with the realisation that the initials WB on the lintel stood for ´┐ŻWilliam Bird´┐Ż. As I´┐Żve mentioned the property is also simply known as the Old House, so it would be interesting to find out when the name Bird´┐Żs House/Tenement first came into common usage.


This quote is from page 14. if anyone might be interested to see other information on the same page.

Having been sifting through all my hand written notes about this family, which are in the main notes taken from the Parish records that were held in Earlston Library.

William Bird married Mary Williamson, daughter or Robert Williamson . They had a son, Joseph, baptised
on 12th March 1647.

I have not any record for their marriage but it was obviously prior to march 1647.

That could well be when the tenancy transferred over. In 1665 Joseph, would have been of age (18) and was then in his name. J Bird could have been mistaken for T Bird. when we see some of the writings.

At the moment, I have no idea which William Bird it could have been. (so many of them )

Last edited by granny; 12th Jan 2019 11:40pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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