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New Novichok Saga #1056516
5th Jul 2018 8:30am
5th Jul 2018 8:30am
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granny Offline OP
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Blimey ! This seems even more suspicious. Maybe it's to give credence to the case of the Skripals. (Who have probably left the country by now and living in US, courtesy of CIA) .

We have not heard sight nor sound of the policeman who was affected by it.

The clean up operation in Salisbury seemed to lack any sort of emergency, after the 'seat' stayed in place for weeks. Apart from many other little or large questionable characteristics of the case..... we now have this latest attack.

Very odd, but one thing that BBC reported early afternoon yesterday on 24 hr news was that the housing where these people were living was a very new estate. People still moving in and many are from the military or ex military. I haven't heard it mentioned since.
When the inquiries of the Skripal case were happening it was on news that they had taken a car away from the military base near- by to be examined.

I still find all of this VERY suspect, and wonder what the next reactionary move will be .from Her Majesty's Government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056517
5th Jul 2018 8:49am
5th Jul 2018 8:49am
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I wasn't convinced it was the Russians last time and I'm even less convinced it's them again. No evidence was ever presented to support this accusation. Theresa May persuading a load of other Western leaders to join in her accusations doesn't add up to any more than a bucket of warm spit in terms of evidence.

Basically, we didn't know who was responsible last time and we don't know this time.

If you want a wild guess I'd have Ukraine pretty high on the list. Their government, to put it mildly, is somewhat dodgy, they probably have access to the stuff from the days of the USSR, and have a strong interest in trying to discredit Russia.

Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056518
5th Jul 2018 9:52am
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granny Offline OP
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I still think it's the CIA. Think of the scenario last time. Poisoning, expelled Russian Diplomats here, EU and America. Then in response to an almost certain 'fake chemical attack' in Syria, .. US, UK had reason to strike Syria .

Now , only last week it has already been suggested that another 'fake chemical attack' in Syria is about to be launched. I can't help feeling that the whole thing is wrapped up as an excuse to go against the Russian and Iranian support for Syria, because they are still desperate to get rid of Assad for the benefit of Israel.
Assad is now on the edge of Golan's demilitarised zone , i.e. Golan being Syria's land occupied by Israel. If Assad steps into his own land, (land which has never been recognised as Israel's land) there's every reason that the shit will hit the
fan, and US and UK want a good reason to defend and support Israel with military might.
So what better way than to whip up anti-Russian feeling all over again.. Thoughts of conspiracy ? Maybe, but I was right about the same military response and reasoning last time , i.e. in April.

Last edited by granny; 5th Jul 2018 9:53am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056533
6th Jul 2018 12:51am
6th Jul 2018 12:51am
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Timeline i read was that 2 stories were circulating to start with .1) was that they had taken drugs 2)major incident called.. and a note that nothing in the backgrounds of the sick couple could suggest why they should be poisoned. Govt are in a really tricky situation ... if they dont condemn Russia it suggests that Russia might not have been behind Skripal case in the first place. Really fascinating chess game in progress....

Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056538
6th Jul 2018 8:55am
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I heard a claim on the radio today that the novichok used against the Skripals would have degraded to harmless levels by now so it is 'fresh' novichok that has been used. That it degrades is not too surprising. Many chemicals do.

However, as I understand it, it is a binary weapon. It is made by mixing two harmless reagents, so it is quite possible that one of them would have been spread on one surface - say a door handle, and the other on something like a handle of a car. Whilst the novichok might degrade with time, it is also quite possible - even likely - that the reagents used to make it do not. This makes sense. You want your weapon to be stockpiled, but the nerve agent to degrade after it has done its job. And if they have not been cleared up then someone touching two objects coated with them might well pick up a potentially lethal dose.

I imagine the clear-up crews were looking for novichok, and the reagents known to us. But there is often more than one way to make a chemical. Not all of them are guaranteed to be known to all experts. It is one thing to detect a known chemical, but looking for an unknown one is much trickier.

The long and short of it is that the whole area might be contaminated, and remain so for an indefinite period. Moreover, those attempting to clear it up will be unable to do so.

It is a pity that the desire to blame the Russians excluded their knowledge from the investigation. They might well be able to throw light on what reagents they know of. It seems to have been a rather stupid decision as well as a possibly unfair and politically motivated one to condemn the suspect without any evidence or trial.

The thing about stupid people is that often they are not just stupider than you think. they are stupider than you CAN think. Clearly none of this has occurred to them and they are currently blaming the Russians again!

Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056539
6th Jul 2018 9:14am
6th Jul 2018 9:14am
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The nerve agent that poisoned a couple near Salisbury was unlikely to have been left in the open before they touched it, a government scientist has told BBC News.

Novichok can be degraded by rainwater and sunlight over time - meaning it was probably discovered by the pair in a contained space, the source added.

They were exposed to it after handling a contaminated item, police said.


I guess it all hinges on what that item was and where they got it. The media has already been portraying them as druggies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44733873

Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056541
6th Jul 2018 10:54am
6th Jul 2018 10:54am
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granny Offline OP
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It's more of a mystery than the first. IMO. The timeline is confusing. Did they both go the Baptist Church fete or not ? One personal report said they did, another said they didn't a third said she went to hospital on Sat morning, and the man was at the Church with a friend or neighbour, where he had a beef burger but didn't seem well.. These are reports from the public in direct contact with the couple.
I don't for one minute imagine that a professional hit man or assassin would have simply discarded residue of such a lethal agent and definitely not in such close proximity to the original crime. If it had been in contact with clothes , possibly.
Once more nothing is making sense.
Maybe these two have been contaminated deliberately in an attempt to justify the original claims. Javid certainly hit of the Russians again yesterday... out of all proportion IMO.
These two people wouldn't matter in society to those in high places if it proved justification to lies. i.e. in espionage. Let's face it, the whole country are suspect about the Skripal case , so what better way to counteract ?
With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if this couple don't survive. No tales to be told then......

Last edited by granny; 6th Jul 2018 10:56am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056543
6th Jul 2018 11:03am
6th Jul 2018 11:03am
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On the other hand, the original perpetrator would want to dispose of the remaining equipment as fast as possible to make sure he doesn't contaminate himself.

A syringe would be a relatively safe way of laying the poison and also would account for the longevity of the remaining poison.

I'm a bit confused that the official story are these are smack-heads yet the neighbours are saying they are nice people and the neighbours don't seem like smack-head loving people.

This second incident seems to be right beside Boscombe Down but that could easily be coincidental I guess.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056544
6th Jul 2018 11:11am
6th Jul 2018 11:11am
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If it's a binary poison - which I believe it is - the stuff carried by the perpetrators will be pretty harmless, and could probably be disposed of simply by flushing it down the toilet.

It would not even be harmful if you touched it. It is also possible that one of the reagents could be a perfectly harmless domestic substance like bicarb. or propyl alcohol.

Last edited by Excoriator; 6th Jul 2018 11:16am.
Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056550
6th Jul 2018 11:53am
6th Jul 2018 11:53am
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granny Offline OP
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Re: 'Smack heads'. One of the first people who knew them and who was interviewed on TV said she didn't take drugs. That is also stated in the BBC report.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056562
6th Jul 2018 4:09pm
6th Jul 2018 4:09pm
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Yes it is binary but normally it is mixed before application as would appear to have been the case with the Skripals, there was no report of the reagents being found in two separate places.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056567
6th Jul 2018 5:59pm
6th Jul 2018 5:59pm
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Again we see medics in full boots and suits next to police in uniform.. Think we needed to be reminded how nasty Russia really is as we and the world are getting cosy with them at the football. cctv showing the lady stocking up on what looks like cheap cider or beer so maybe alcoholics

Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056568
6th Jul 2018 6:54pm
6th Jul 2018 6:54pm
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It was the Russians as our pm has said and she and mps never lie so it must be real raftl



Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: diggingdeeper] #1056570
6th Jul 2018 10:00pm
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Yes it is binary but normally it is mixed before application as would appear to have been the case with the Skripals, there was no report of the reagents being found in two separate places.


Doesn't have to be mixed before use. A lot of binary weapons like shells keep them separate until the contents of both are blown togther by a detonation on hitting the target.

If I wanted to use it to assassinate anyone, I'd certainly apply it separately to items I know they'd handle. Dann sight safer than mixing it and risk getting the resulting stuff on me.

Re: New Novichok Saga [Re: granny] #1056571
6th Jul 2018 10:05pm
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granny Offline OP
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We were told Skripal lived on the outskirts of the city. He collapsed by Queen Elizabeth Gardens near the centre. Military grade Novichok was found on the handle of his front door quite a distance away.
We have not been informed ( to my knowledge) whether any traces were found on his car door or on steering wheel.
They took the car on the Sunday morning to the cemetery.

Why is it that the same agent is now found in Q E Gardens just by where they collapsed ?
This is where the police are concentrating the efforts, but to me it seems a bit far out from Skripal's home, and a very strange coincidence considering that the perpetrator would have probably disappeared into the ether after the initial attack. Knowing full well that a full scale investigation would be happening in a short period of time, why would anyone jeopardise themselves by dumping it in the public domain so soon afterwards. If they didn't ,and then later returned to dump it... well, that's not even rational. Why not throw it down a drain ?


Just me playing detective.
I wonder if Miss S had it all the time ? A nasty accident and then she flung it ?

Last edited by granny; 6th Jul 2018 10:08pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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