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Re: Complicated one.
[Re: venice]
#1055129
30th Apr 2018 10:38pm
30th Apr 2018 10:38pm
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621 Wirral
venice
OP

Forum Guardian
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OP

Forum Guardian
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621
Wirral
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I can see both sides and am torn, but since youve stated support on one side Ill be Devils advocate. For those who go with the 300 womens' view , are you not saying to trans gender people -(male to female in this particular instance)
" We believe genuinely you feel you're a woman trapped in a mans body ,because youve been through all the psychology tests, the living as a woman for a year, youve now had all the surgery and voice altering drugs necessary to make your body female to match the way you feel inside and we're so open minded and genuine about it we now expect -society to accept and treat you as a woman--- ---Well - sort of , well actually , no ,come on, you dont seriously think we can look at you and believe you are now totally 'womanly' -- We can call you Betty instead of Bert, but .....well.....u're not REALLY a woman inside are you, its like - like an external disguise...... We dont believe your gender can be COMPLETELY changed - because actually , we're so arrogant we think we can see into your mind enough to decide that even after all medical help to change you on the outside -to match your inner woman already resident , your new persona just wont be capable of THINKING like a woman --- so we wouldnt want you on a womens panel because tbh , we still view you as a man .thinking male thoughts "
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Re: Complicated one.
[Re: venice]
#1055133
1st May 2018 8:21am
1st May 2018 8:21am
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,261 wallasey
casper
Forum Master
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Forum Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,261
wallasey
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What is life like? first of all we are all human beings,we are then subdivided into particular groups by many factors, we are now fracturing into even smaller groups, large people , small people, gay people, etc how far do we go? a group for people with brown eyes, curly hair, it appears instead of wanting to belong some groups want to categorize themselves as being different and not only that want preferential treatment to be pushed to the front of the queue,
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Re: Complicated one.
[Re: venice]
#1055135
1st May 2018 9:26am
1st May 2018 9:26am
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,759 wirral
Excoriator
Forum Addict
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Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,759
wirral
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What is to stop me, a man and happy to be one, one day declaring myself to be a woman, getting onto a womans candidate list, being adopted and winning, only to declare I have changed my mind and decided I am a man again? (Apart from details like I don't want to go into politics and nobody would vote for me if I did!)
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the transgender creed to say you have to change your dress, your behaviour or your hair length, let alone undergo surgery in order to qualify as a bona fide member of your newly chosen gender. And it is a woman's prerogative (and a man's) to change their mind!
This seems to me to be a pretty insoluble problem, at least by a rule-based approach. Perhaps we have painted ourselves into a moral corner with our liberalism here.
And I wonder how you handle people like Grayson Perry, who seems to flip between his male persona and his female one, Claire, at least as regards dress, as he feels moved?
If you ask me, the assumption that politicians (of all sexes) seem to universally hold that all moral and social problems can be handled by a rule - if you can only find the right one - is fundamentally wrong. Quite often good will and common sense are all that is needed, and the willingness to judge each case on its own merits.
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Re: Complicated one.
[Re: venice]
#1055136
1st May 2018 9:30am
1st May 2018 9:30am
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,639 Wirral
granny
Wiki Master
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Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,639
Wirral
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I don't think we are ready for this. Why is Corbyn not promoting the women who self identify as men ? Why is it only men who are self identifying with women that he mentions ? With regard to these artificially created differences in gender, are the people really happy with themselves ? I feel very sorry that they have such a dilemma, but to burden that problem on the ordinary electorate for the sake of trying to prove a point of being inclusive of all, seems wrong. The time will come when the children in our society, will be so messed up, they won't know what the heck they are. We know how gay and lesbians have suffered difficult times in their early years, why is it right to play with the minds of children who are happy with the way they are. Do they start to question themselves due to pressures of self identification ? I sometimes feel that the majority seem to be suffering more for the minority, and to have these people with their gender differences in Parliament, making decisions on behalf of others ,means another factor will have to be included in the national curriculum, so everyone grows up knowing that it's ok to have operations to change who you are. Even we , can't fully comprehend sometimes, so how can kids ? Is it in America they are now saying that their children are faced with a transgender identity at the age of 3 yrs ! ?
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
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Re: Complicated one.
[Re: granny]
#1055149
1st May 2018 12:23pm
1st May 2018 12:23pm
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,261 wallasey
casper
Forum Master
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Forum Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,261
wallasey
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I don't think we are ready for this. Why is Corbyn not promoting the women who self identify as men ? Why is it only men who are self identifying with women that he mentions ? With regard to these artificially created differences in gender, are the people really happy with themselves ? I feel very sorry that they have such a dilemma, but to burden that problem on the ordinary electorate for the sake of trying to prove a point of being inclusive of all, seems wrong. The time will come when the children in our society, will be so messed up, they won't know what the heck they are. We know how gay and lesbians have suffered difficult times in their early years, why is it right to play with the minds of children who are happy with the way they are. Do they start to question themselves due to pressures of self identification ? I sometimes feel that the majority seem to be suffering more for the minority, and to have these people with their gender differences in Parliament, making decisions on behalf of others ,means another factor will have to be included in the national curriculum, so everyone grows up knowing that it's ok to have operations to change who you are. Even we , can't fully comprehend sometimes, so how can kids ? Is it in America they are now saying that their children are faced with a transgender identity at the age of 3 yrs ! ?
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Re: Complicated one.
[Re: Excoriator]
#1055151
1st May 2018 12:51pm
1st May 2018 12:51pm
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621 Wirral
venice
OP

Forum Guardian
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OP

Forum Guardian
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621
Wirral
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What is Mr Corbyn suggesting needs to be in place to prevent the sort of behaviour Ex is mentioning? Surely he cant be literally leaving it so unspecified that any man could announce he is a woman and demand to be a candidate ?? Would Corbyn just allow it and hope he wasnt voted for by male voters with their own agenda ( maybe dont agree with all women shortlists? ) What is to stop me, a man and happy to be one, one day declaring myself to be a woman, getting onto a womans candidate list, being adopted and winning, only to declare I have changed my mind and decided I am a man again? (Apart from details like I don't want to go into politics and nobody would vote for me if I did!)
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the transgender creed to say you have to change your dress, your behaviour or your hair length, let alone undergo surgery in order to qualify as a bona fide member of your newly chosen gender. And it is a woman's prerogative (and a man's) to change their mind!
This seems to me to be a pretty insoluble problem, at least by a rule-based approach. Perhaps we have painted ourselves into a moral corner with our liberalism here.
And I wonder how you handle people like Grayson Perry, who seems to flip between his male persona and his female one, Claire, at least as regards dress, as he feels moved?
If you ask me, the assumption that politicians (of all sexes) seem to universally hold that all moral and social problems can be handled by a rule - if you can only find the right one - is fundamentally wrong. Quite often good will and common sense are all that is needed, and the willingness to judge each case on its own merits.
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Toyah . .
by GaryFromWirral. 10th Jan 2021 1:39pm
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AQUARIUM
by lincle. 8th Jan 2021 10:47am
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Toyah . .
by GaryFromWirral. 10th Jan 2021 1:39pm
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Sunrise Tue 8:14am
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