WikiWirral 14yrs online 24/7 365 days a year.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,009,115
Topics74,586
Members12,770
Forums66
Posts in last 24hrs52
Most Online7,831
Apr 8th, 2013
Who's Online Now
56 registered members (8HBob, 11 invisible), 1,222 guests, and317 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
New General Forums
Wirral War Gaming Club Opening Night .. FREE Entry
by WargamerNik. 17th Oct 2018 9:41am
New Brighton Sunset
by buddy. 15th Oct 2018 11:37am
Auntie Beeb Goes Gay
by fish5133. 13th Oct 2018 12:34am
justice?
by casper. 12th Oct 2018 6:32pm
New Wirral History
757 Rocks Wallasey Road Liscard
by derekdwc. 16th Oct 2018 8:04pm
756 Scrap Yard Wallasey Road Liscard
by derekdwc. 16th Oct 2018 8:00pm
755 Beer Keg Wallasey Road Liscard
by derekdwc. 16th Oct 2018 7:55pm
Mersey Tunnel tolls, 1934
by yoller. 21st Sep 2018 9:32am
655 Bridge Inn Bolton Road Port Sunlight
by derekdwc. 14th Sep 2009 2:19pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
No more bridge, never be the same
Over Exposed Crash Site
Topic Replies
Processed Meat
by ShySusie. 19th Oct 2018 8:20am
What song are you listening to?
by Dilly. 19th Oct 2018 7:41am
The Budget of ... when?
by diggingdeeper. 18th Oct 2018 6:52pm
Cammel Laird's Contract Win
by jimbob. 18th Oct 2018 2:49pm
Why has Wiki
by eggandchips. 18th Oct 2018 10:39am
756 Scrap Yard Wallasey Road Liscard
by ShySusie. 17th Oct 2018 8:32pm
Buy and Sell car?
by fish5133. 17th Oct 2018 6:02pm
757 Rocks Wallasey Road Liscard
by zigzagwanderer. 17th Oct 2018 11:56am
Wirral War Gaming Club Opening Night .. FREE Entry
by WargamerNik. 17th Oct 2018 9:41am
October
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
1950's Museum Denbigh
by cools. 13th Oct 2018 10:13am
Giant Puppets Wirral
by ShySusie. 9th Oct 2018 8:14am
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rate Topic
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Complicated one. #1055099
30th Apr 2018 9:53am
30th Apr 2018 9:53am
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
300 women labour members object to Mr Corbyns policy of allowing trans people who self-identify as women to be allowed on all-women Labour candidate shortlists .Are they being reasonable or hypocritical?

Google Ads
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055100
30th Apr 2018 10:19am
30th Apr 2018 10:19am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,003
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,003
Birkenhead
Totally agree with the women on this one.

But I also disagree with the positive discrimination of forcing gender.

We have sex discrimination laws and yet discrimination is being encouraged.????


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055129
30th Apr 2018 10:38pm
30th Apr 2018 10:38pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
I can see both sides and am torn, but since youve stated support on one side Ill be Devils advocate.
For those who go with the 300 womens' view , are you not saying to trans gender people -(male to female in this particular instance)

" We believe genuinely you feel you're a woman trapped in a mans body ,because youve been through all the psychology tests, the living as a woman for a year, youve now had all the surgery and voice altering drugs necessary to make your body female to match the way you feel inside and we're so open minded and genuine about it we now expect -society to accept and treat you as a woman--- ---Well - sort of , well actually , no ,come on, you dont seriously think we can look at you and believe you are now totally 'womanly' -- We can call you Betty instead of Bert, but .....well.....u're not REALLY a woman inside are you, its like - like an external disguise......
We dont believe your gender can be COMPLETELY changed - because actually , we're so arrogant we think we can see into your mind enough to decide that even after all medical help to change you on the outside -to match your inner woman already resident , your new persona just wont be capable of THINKING like a woman --- so we wouldnt want you on a womens panel because tbh , we still view you as a man .thinking male thoughts "

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055130
30th Apr 2018 11:16pm
30th Apr 2018 11:16pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
If Mr Corbyn gives in to the 300 , a precedence is set , saying that trans gender people are not actually considered trans gender when it comes to decision making . What other exclusions might this precedence lead to as well ? If a jury was required to be a balance of male and female - how would a trans gender person fit in ? If NICE panel was judging something like whether a new menopause help drug could be accepted on the NHS - would a male to female transgender person view the issue in as important a light as a born female person. All sorts of discriminatory situations come to mind.
Conclusion - Surely if a trans gender person feels totally female inside doesnt that indicate they are likely to be thinking and viewing things more as a female than a male - so dont need to be discriminated against? ----In which case Mr Corbyn would be right in his decision.

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055131
1st May 2018 12:17am
1st May 2018 12:17am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,003
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,003
Birkenhead
Would you like a person who claims they feel to be female despite having a male body sharing the toilets, showers or changing rooms with your daughter?

How do you certify they are truly trans-gender or just having a laugh or being opportunistic?

How often are they allowed to change perceived gender?


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055132
1st May 2018 12:43am
1st May 2018 12:43am
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
Mmmmm- so my subject title is entirely accurate then !!! lol


Have to say , Im amazed there seem to be so few Wiki opinions on this topic . Very surprising.

Last edited by venice; 1st May 2018 12:45am.
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055133
1st May 2018 8:21am
1st May 2018 8:21am
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,612
wallasey
C
casper Online content
Forum Addict
casper  Online Content
Forum Addict
C
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,612
wallasey
What is life like? first of all we are all human beings,we are then subdivided into particular groups by many factors, we are now fracturing into even smaller groups, large people , small people, gay people, etc how far do we go? a group for people with brown eyes, curly hair, it appears instead of wanting to belong some groups want to categorize themselves as being different and not only that want preferential treatment to be pushed to the front of the queue,

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055134
1st May 2018 9:12am
1st May 2018 9:12am
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,994
Oxton
Gibbo Online content
Forum Addict
Gibbo  Online Content
Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,994
Oxton
It didn't turn out well the last time Labour appointed a trans-gender person, but that was more because she was racist and offensive.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...trans-resign-corbyn-edited-a8241746.html

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055135
1st May 2018 9:26am
1st May 2018 9:26am
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,564
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,564
wirral
What is to stop me, a man and happy to be one, one day declaring myself to be a woman, getting onto a womans candidate list, being adopted and winning, only to declare I have changed my mind and decided I am a man again? (Apart from details like I don't want to go into politics and nobody would vote for me if I did!)

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the transgender creed to say you have to change your dress, your behaviour or your hair length, let alone undergo surgery in order to qualify as a bona fide member of your newly chosen gender. And it is a woman's prerogative (and a man's) to change their mind!

This seems to me to be a pretty insoluble problem, at least by a rule-based approach. Perhaps we have painted ourselves into a moral corner with our liberalism here.

And I wonder how you handle people like Grayson Perry, who seems to flip between his male persona and his female one, Claire, at least as regards dress, as he feels moved?

If you ask me, the assumption that politicians (of all sexes) seem to universally hold that all moral and social problems can be handled by a rule - if you can only find the right one - is fundamentally wrong. Quite often good will and common sense are all that is needed, and the willingness to judge each case on its own merits.

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055136
1st May 2018 9:30am
1st May 2018 9:30am
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,708
Wirral
granny Offline
Wiki Master
granny  Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,708
Wirral


I don't think we are ready for this. Why is Corbyn not promoting the women who self identify as men ? Why is it only men who are self identifying with women that he mentions ?
With regard to these artificially created differences in gender, are the people really happy with themselves ? I feel very sorry that they have such a dilemma, but to burden that problem on the ordinary electorate for the sake of trying to prove a point of being inclusive of all, seems wrong.
The time will come when the children in our society, will be so messed up, they won't know what the heck they are. We know how gay and lesbians have suffered difficult times in their early years, why is it right to play with the minds of children who are happy with the way they are. Do they start to question themselves due to pressures of self identification ?
I sometimes feel that the majority seem to be suffering more for the minority, and to have these people with their gender differences in Parliament, making decisions on behalf of others ,means another factor will have to be included in the national curriculum, so everyone grows up knowing that it's ok to have operations to change who you are. Even we , can't fully comprehend sometimes, so how can kids ? Is it in America they are now saying that their children are faced with a transgender identity at the age of 3 yrs ! ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Complicated one. [Re: granny] #1055137
1st May 2018 9:40am
1st May 2018 9:40am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,334
between heaven & hell
starakita Online content

Forum Master
starakita  Online Content

Forum Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,334
between heaven & hell
It will be even more difficult for kids being brought up as gender neutral when they get older


no1s gonna keep me from u
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055138
1st May 2018 10:01am
1st May 2018 10:01am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,003
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,003
Birkenhead
Corbyn only mentions women because of the women only seats that have been declared. There aren’t any men only seats.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Complicated one. [Re: granny] #1055149
1st May 2018 12:23pm
1st May 2018 12:23pm
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,612
wallasey
C
casper Online content
Forum Addict
casper  Online Content
Forum Addict
C
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,612
wallasey
Originally Posted by granny


I don't think we are ready for this. Why is Corbyn not promoting the women who self identify as men ? Why is it only men who are self identifying with women that he mentions ?
With regard to these artificially created differences in gender, are the people really happy with themselves ? I feel very sorry that they have such a dilemma, but to burden that problem on the ordinary electorate for the sake of trying to prove a point of being inclusive of all, seems wrong.
The time will come when the children in our society, will be so messed up, they won't know what the heck they are. We know how gay and lesbians have suffered difficult times in their early years, why is it right to play with the minds of children who are happy with the way they are. Do they start to question themselves due to pressures of self identification ?
I sometimes feel that the majority seem to be suffering more for the minority, and to have these people with their gender differences in Parliament, making decisions on behalf of others ,means another factor will have to be included in the national curriculum, so everyone grows up knowing that it's ok to have operations to change who you are. Even we , can't fully comprehend sometimes, so how can kids ? Is it in America they are now saying that their children are faced with a transgender identity at the age of 3 yrs ! ?

Re: Complicated one. [Re: casper] #1055150
1st May 2018 12:37pm
1st May 2018 12:37pm
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,612
wallasey
C
casper Online content
Forum Addict
casper  Online Content
Forum Addict
C
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,612
wallasey
You have put it so much better granny, all this being put forward as if its a choice or a path to take, or dare I say a normal choice, "what would you like to be when you leave school dear" a pilot , doctor , firefighter? no I think I maybe gay or transgender.

Re: Complicated one. [Re: Excoriator] #1055151
1st May 2018 12:51pm
1st May 2018 12:51pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,423
Wirral
What is Mr Corbyn suggesting needs to be in place to prevent the sort of behaviour Ex is mentioning? Surely he cant be literally leaving it so unspecified that any man could announce he is a woman and demand to be a candidate ?? Would Corbyn just allow it and hope he wasnt voted for by male voters with their own agenda ( maybe dont agree with all women shortlists? )

Originally Posted by Excoriator
What is to stop me, a man and happy to be one, one day declaring myself to be a woman, getting onto a womans candidate list, being adopted and winning, only to declare I have changed my mind and decided I am a man again? (Apart from details like I don't want to go into politics and nobody would vote for me if I did!)

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the transgender creed to say you have to change your dress, your behaviour or your hair length, let alone undergo surgery in order to qualify as a bona fide member of your newly chosen gender. And it is a woman's prerogative (and a man's) to change their mind!

This seems to me to be a pretty insoluble problem, at least by a rule-based approach. Perhaps we have painted ourselves into a moral corner with our liberalism here.

And I wonder how you handle people like Grayson Perry, who seems to flip between his male persona and his female one, Claire, at least as regards dress, as he feels moved?

If you ask me, the assumption that politicians (of all sexes) seem to universally hold that all moral and social problems can be handled by a rule - if you can only find the right one - is fundamentally wrong. Quite often good will and common sense are all that is needed, and the willingness to judge each case on its own merits.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
The Budget of ... when?
by Norton. 17th Oct 2018 11:11pm
Why has Wiki
by Dilly. 17th Oct 2018 10:38am
Wirral War Gaming Club Opening Night .. FREE Entry
by WargamerNik. 17th Oct 2018 9:41am
Buy and Sell car?
by fish5133. 16th Oct 2018 8:31pm
757 Rocks Wallasey Road Liscard
by derekdwc. 16th Oct 2018 8:04pm
For Sale & Free
two bar stools & 1 Computer chair Free
by gerry1. 10th Oct 2018 12:50pm
Ariston hifi amplifier £40, speakers £20
by montyz. 10th Oct 2018 10:44am
Selection of boys trainers size 12 and 13
by lauren_lfc89. 24th Sep 2018 5:30pm
Old adult bikes wanted cheap or free?
by mike1965. 24th Sep 2018 9:24am
Electric Bass Guitar / and amp
by gerrymoore. 22nd Sep 2018 8:54am
Member Spotlight
RUDEBOX
RUDEBOX
Here.
Posts: 19,426
Joined: August 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
JMaclean, Csones, jonesh, DavidDaniels, Paulc76
12770 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Why has Wiki
by Dilly. 17th Oct 2018 10:38am
Bromborough
by venice. 16th Oct 2018 4:14pm
Handyperson
by lincle. 12th Oct 2018 10:58am
Capital and Innovation
by bliplandy. 8th Oct 2018 8:14am
Cycle path?
by Excoriator. 5th Oct 2018 11:44pm
News : New Topics
The Budget of ... when?
by Norton. 17th Oct 2018 11:11pm
Bulldog Bites Scotsman
by ShySusie. 11th Oct 2018 2:08pm
New Thames Tunnel
by Norton. 10th Oct 2018 6:35pm
Trams planned for our Docks
by Norton. 10th Oct 2018 4:52pm
2 Siamese cats stolen
by muzzy2. 7th Oct 2018 8:03pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Buy and Sell car?
by fish5133. 16th Oct 2018 8:31pm
Flu Vaccine 2018
by Moonstar. 9th Oct 2018 1:06pm
Ghost In The Bedroom!
by ShySusie. 6th Oct 2018 1:27pm
Processed Meat
by granny. 3rd Oct 2018 9:41am
Black Dog Hauntings!!!
by ShySusie. 1st Oct 2018 4:17pm
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Fri 7:47am
Sunset Fri 6:06pm
Local Time Fri 9:02am
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1