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Complicated one. #1055099
30th Apr 2018 9:53am
30th Apr 2018 9:53am
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venice Offline OP

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300 women labour members object to Mr Corbyns policy of allowing trans people who self-identify as women to be allowed on all-women Labour candidate shortlists .Are they being reasonable or hypocritical?

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Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055100
30th Apr 2018 10:19am
30th Apr 2018 10:19am
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diggingdeeper Offline

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Totally agree with the women on this one.

But I also disagree with the positive discrimination of forcing gender.

We have sex discrimination laws and yet discrimination is being encouraged.????


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055129
30th Apr 2018 10:38pm
30th Apr 2018 10:38pm
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venice Offline OP

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I can see both sides and am torn, but since youve stated support on one side Ill be Devils advocate.
For those who go with the 300 womens' view , are you not saying to trans gender people -(male to female in this particular instance)

" We believe genuinely you feel you're a woman trapped in a mans body ,because youve been through all the psychology tests, the living as a woman for a year, youve now had all the surgery and voice altering drugs necessary to make your body female to match the way you feel inside and we're so open minded and genuine about it we now expect -society to accept and treat you as a woman--- ---Well - sort of , well actually , no ,come on, you dont seriously think we can look at you and believe you are now totally 'womanly' -- We can call you Betty instead of Bert, but .....well.....u're not REALLY a woman inside are you, its like - like an external disguise......
We dont believe your gender can be COMPLETELY changed - because actually , we're so arrogant we think we can see into your mind enough to decide that even after all medical help to change you on the outside -to match your inner woman already resident , your new persona just wont be capable of THINKING like a woman --- so we wouldnt want you on a womens panel because tbh , we still view you as a man .thinking male thoughts "

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055130
30th Apr 2018 11:16pm
30th Apr 2018 11:16pm
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venice Offline OP

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If Mr Corbyn gives in to the 300 , a precedence is set , saying that trans gender people are not actually considered trans gender when it comes to decision making . What other exclusions might this precedence lead to as well ? If a jury was required to be a balance of male and female - how would a trans gender person fit in ? If NICE panel was judging something like whether a new menopause help drug could be accepted on the NHS - would a male to female transgender person view the issue in as important a light as a born female person. All sorts of discriminatory situations come to mind.
Conclusion - Surely if a trans gender person feels totally female inside doesnt that indicate they are likely to be thinking and viewing things more as a female than a male - so dont need to be discriminated against? ----In which case Mr Corbyn would be right in his decision.

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055131
1st May 2018 12:17am
1st May 2018 12:17am
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diggingdeeper Offline

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Would you like a person who claims they feel to be female despite having a male body sharing the toilets, showers or changing rooms with your daughter?

How do you certify they are truly trans-gender or just having a laugh or being opportunistic?

How often are they allowed to change perceived gender?


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055132
1st May 2018 12:43am
1st May 2018 12:43am
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venice Offline OP

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Mmmmm- so my subject title is entirely accurate then !!! lol


Have to say , Im amazed there seem to be so few Wiki opinions on this topic . Very surprising.

Last edited by venice; 1st May 2018 12:45am.
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055133
1st May 2018 8:21am
1st May 2018 8:21am
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wallasey
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What is life like? first of all we are all human beings,we are then subdivided into particular groups by many factors, we are now fracturing into even smaller groups, large people , small people, gay people, etc how far do we go? a group for people with brown eyes, curly hair, it appears instead of wanting to belong some groups want to categorize themselves as being different and not only that want preferential treatment to be pushed to the front of the queue,

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055134
1st May 2018 9:12am
1st May 2018 9:12am
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Oxton
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It didn't turn out well the last time Labour appointed a trans-gender person, but that was more because she was racist and offensive.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...trans-resign-corbyn-edited-a8241746.html

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055135
1st May 2018 9:26am
1st May 2018 9:26am
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What is to stop me, a man and happy to be one, one day declaring myself to be a woman, getting onto a womans candidate list, being adopted and winning, only to declare I have changed my mind and decided I am a man again? (Apart from details like I don't want to go into politics and nobody would vote for me if I did!)

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the transgender creed to say you have to change your dress, your behaviour or your hair length, let alone undergo surgery in order to qualify as a bona fide member of your newly chosen gender. And it is a woman's prerogative (and a man's) to change their mind!

This seems to me to be a pretty insoluble problem, at least by a rule-based approach. Perhaps we have painted ourselves into a moral corner with our liberalism here.

And I wonder how you handle people like Grayson Perry, who seems to flip between his male persona and his female one, Claire, at least as regards dress, as he feels moved?

If you ask me, the assumption that politicians (of all sexes) seem to universally hold that all moral and social problems can be handled by a rule - if you can only find the right one - is fundamentally wrong. Quite often good will and common sense are all that is needed, and the willingness to judge each case on its own merits.

Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055136
1st May 2018 9:30am
1st May 2018 9:30am
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I don't think we are ready for this. Why is Corbyn not promoting the women who self identify as men ? Why is it only men who are self identifying with women that he mentions ?
With regard to these artificially created differences in gender, are the people really happy with themselves ? I feel very sorry that they have such a dilemma, but to burden that problem on the ordinary electorate for the sake of trying to prove a point of being inclusive of all, seems wrong.
The time will come when the children in our society, will be so messed up, they won't know what the heck they are. We know how gay and lesbians have suffered difficult times in their early years, why is it right to play with the minds of children who are happy with the way they are. Do they start to question themselves due to pressures of self identification ?
I sometimes feel that the majority seem to be suffering more for the minority, and to have these people with their gender differences in Parliament, making decisions on behalf of others ,means another factor will have to be included in the national curriculum, so everyone grows up knowing that it's ok to have operations to change who you are. Even we , can't fully comprehend sometimes, so how can kids ? Is it in America they are now saying that their children are faced with a transgender identity at the age of 3 yrs ! ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Complicated one. [Re: granny] #1055137
1st May 2018 9:40am
1st May 2018 9:40am
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between heaven & hell
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It will be even more difficult for kids being brought up as gender neutral when they get older


no1s gonna keep me from u
Re: Complicated one. [Re: venice] #1055138
1st May 2018 10:01am
1st May 2018 10:01am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,502
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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Corbyn only mentions women because of the women only seats that have been declared. There aren’t any men only seats.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Complicated one. [Re: granny] #1055149
1st May 2018 12:23pm
1st May 2018 12:23pm
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wallasey
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casper Online content
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wallasey
Originally Posted by granny


I don't think we are ready for this. Why is Corbyn not promoting the women who self identify as men ? Why is it only men who are self identifying with women that he mentions ?
With regard to these artificially created differences in gender, are the people really happy with themselves ? I feel very sorry that they have such a dilemma, but to burden that problem on the ordinary electorate for the sake of trying to prove a point of being inclusive of all, seems wrong.
The time will come when the children in our society, will be so messed up, they won't know what the heck they are. We know how gay and lesbians have suffered difficult times in their early years, why is it right to play with the minds of children who are happy with the way they are. Do they start to question themselves due to pressures of self identification ?
I sometimes feel that the majority seem to be suffering more for the minority, and to have these people with their gender differences in Parliament, making decisions on behalf of others ,means another factor will have to be included in the national curriculum, so everyone grows up knowing that it's ok to have operations to change who you are. Even we , can't fully comprehend sometimes, so how can kids ? Is it in America they are now saying that their children are faced with a transgender identity at the age of 3 yrs ! ?

Re: Complicated one. [Re: casper] #1055150
1st May 2018 12:37pm
1st May 2018 12:37pm
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wallasey
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casper Online content
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You have put it so much better granny, all this being put forward as if its a choice or a path to take, or dare I say a normal choice, "what would you like to be when you leave school dear" a pilot , doctor , firefighter? no I think I maybe gay or transgender.

Re: Complicated one. [Re: Excoriator] #1055151
1st May 2018 12:51pm
1st May 2018 12:51pm
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venice Offline OP

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What is Mr Corbyn suggesting needs to be in place to prevent the sort of behaviour Ex is mentioning? Surely he cant be literally leaving it so unspecified that any man could announce he is a woman and demand to be a candidate ?? Would Corbyn just allow it and hope he wasnt voted for by male voters with their own agenda ( maybe dont agree with all women shortlists? )

Originally Posted by Excoriator
What is to stop me, a man and happy to be one, one day declaring myself to be a woman, getting onto a womans candidate list, being adopted and winning, only to declare I have changed my mind and decided I am a man again? (Apart from details like I don't want to go into politics and nobody would vote for me if I did!)

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the transgender creed to say you have to change your dress, your behaviour or your hair length, let alone undergo surgery in order to qualify as a bona fide member of your newly chosen gender. And it is a woman's prerogative (and a man's) to change their mind!

This seems to me to be a pretty insoluble problem, at least by a rule-based approach. Perhaps we have painted ourselves into a moral corner with our liberalism here.

And I wonder how you handle people like Grayson Perry, who seems to flip between his male persona and his female one, Claire, at least as regards dress, as he feels moved?

If you ask me, the assumption that politicians (of all sexes) seem to universally hold that all moral and social problems can be handled by a rule - if you can only find the right one - is fundamentally wrong. Quite often good will and common sense are all that is needed, and the willingness to judge each case on its own merits.

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