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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Its a fact he was arrested for murder, that is not normally the charge for "threatening the police with the knife" or "attempting to destroy evidence" or "threatening to hunt down and kill the other burglar".

Yet again you resort to a personal attack based on your impression of what I think and not what I wrote, why do you do that?

This is a public forum, all posts are opinions unless stated otherwise, when I use the words "my main gripe" it would clearly indicate that it is an opinion.



I'd say "there was absolutely no need." is a little stronger than an opinion, wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Excoriator
I'd say "there was absolutely no need." is a little stronger than an opinion, wouldn't you?


I'd say it would be very difficult to use those words without it being an opinion, it clearly indicates that it was the opposite to what happened so it can only be an opinion.


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will you two get a room already raftl



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My late Father would have fought to the death to protect my disabled Mother ages 94 & 90 . He would have gladly given everything he possessed to stop them .This poor man didn't know what they may have done . There are men out there who would delight in attacking a frail woman .Im not suggesting they would but the possibility was there & I for one wouldn't expect anyone to take time to wait & see.

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it is safe to kill an intruder in your home but you cannot chase them, you chase after them and you are on a murder charge.
The arrest is standard procedure.


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Originally Posted by fish5133
You dont often read about a police fire arms officer being arrested following a fatal shooting of a suspect. Best you get is the officer put on gardening leave and a independant police inquiry launched.
Interesting to see if this actually gets any further than CPS


Sadly slightly prophetic......police shoot and kill 40 year old man in romford for just saying he had a gun in a threatening manner. They took no chances .....worry is if this was a deliberate over reaction following the comments about police losing the streets in london following all the knife crime..why cant they fire tranquilisers to start with and then resort to lethal force if needed.
Not read if he actually had a gun or was brandishing it..

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Originally Posted by fish5133
Originally Posted by fish5133
You dont often read about a police fire arms officer being arrested following a fatal shooting of a suspect. Best you get is the officer put on gardening leave and a independant police inquiry launched.
Interesting to see if this actually gets any further than CPS


Sadly slightly prophetic......police shoot and kill 40 year old man in romford for just saying he had a gun in a threatening manner. They took no chances .....worry is if this was a deliberate over reaction following the comments about police losing the streets in london following all the knife crime..why cant they fire tranquilisers to start with and then resort to lethal force if needed.
Not read if he actually had a gun or was brandishing it..


Sadly tranquillisers are not instant, can be unpredictable and are not the weapon of choice in these situations. That's why escaped wild animals in the community are usually shot dead instead of being tranquillised. There is too much risk to the public.. In Canada and the USA the police take a far more aggressive role in these situations and if you are stupid enough to go around saying you have a gun you will end up dead.

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Regarding whether he should have been arrested...........yes he should have been! An arrest is not a conviction, it is a means of detaining a person until the police can clarify facts. They were presented with a dead body and a person who admits to killing the deceased. They have to investigate fully otherwise the council may as well start issuing red bins for the corpses of intruders. Many killers have tried to write off the deceased as just an intruder. Also killing a younger more able person does not make you automatically innocent. In 1985 Kenneth Noye found an intruder in the garden of his home and stabbed him to death. The deceased was Detective Constable John Fordham who was engaged in police surveillance of the property. Despite this Noye was acquitted of murder on the grounds of 'self defence'. I can understand the public knee jerk reaction to this man being arrested, but for the police it is not that simple. They have to take a less blinkered view and look at the facts. For instance, if you are unlucky enough to be walking in the woods and come across a murdered corpse and phone the police to report the find, their first suspect is going to be YOU, unfair as that may seem.

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This poor man must be having a terrible time . Not only does he have to live with the knowledge he has taken a life albeit in self defence of his family , but now the scumbag family of the deceased are threatening revenge on him . Just what he needs at this stage of his life , ageing himself , and facing lord knows what sort of future with his Alzheimers suffering wife. The family and friends of the burglar had made a shrine to him , which supporters of the old man have now ripped down. Horrible situation.

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Yes Venice terrible situation and like you say, not what you want at his age (or any age).

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@tiger, you have given reasons why he "could" be arrested but no indications as to why he "had" to be arrested. As I keep on saying, there are major repercussions from being arrested even if you are totally exonerated of any crime, I see absolutely no need to arrest him immediately, he was very unlikely to do a runner, he co-operated fully, what was gained by arresting him?


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There are myriad reasons why he should have been arrested and absolutely no reasons why he should not have been. First reason to arrest him was because it was a murder investigation. It really does not get any more serious than that. All as the police have is his story...........and he is the one who has taken the life of another. The police have no idea what has gone on or whether or not he and the deceased knew each other etc. Second reason is for his own safety. They have no idea what his state of mind is. He could have killed himself through remorse and the police would have looked a little bit stupid leaving him there. Also they would have looked equally stupid if they had left him there and the deceased person's family had arrived and murdered him. How exactly can you make the assumption 'he was very unlikely to do a runner'? I have spent decades working with offenders in forensic mental health and never ever made that assumption and I certainly would not dream of doing so in this case as, like you, I have absolutely no knowledge of this man and what he is capable of. Being arrested is nothing more than having your liberty taken away for a short period. If you are not charged with and convicted of an offence you can confidently describe yourself as not having convictions on any DBS application and no convictions will show. Under the circumstances the police had absolutely no choice other than arrest him and remove him from the scene until such time as they were satisfied with his account.
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I have no knowledge of most people, that is hardly justification to arrest them? I will ask again, what was gained by arresting him?

Originally Posted by tigertiger1953
If you are not charged with and convicted of an offence you can confidently describe yourself as not having convictions on any DBS application and no convictions will show..


That is not the case when it comes to visa waiver programs, here are the words for the USA Visa Waiver eligibility ...

" Travelers who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, those with criminal records, (the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law), certain serious communicable illnesses, those who have been refused admission into, or have been deported from, the United States, or have previously overstayed on the VWP are not eligible to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program;"

Getting a US visa is a right royal pain in the backside, its expensive, its time consuming, its stressful and it can all be a waste of time and money if it is turned down (as many are!)

I have a UK conviction from 40 years ago, there is no record of it in the UK (its not in police records, its not in local or central court records) but because of it I have to apply for a Visa to go to the States. No doubt under Trump its going to be even more of a gamble whether you get a Visa.


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He was arrested to protect him, protect the public, preserve the scene of the crime, prevent further offences and to enable the police to conduct a proper and thorough investigation. I am rather baffled by your almost obessive debate on how being arrested will affect his ability to obtain a visa to visit the USA. I certainly know that the police officers at the scene would not have given that argument much consideration and I certainly feel it has absolutely no bearing on the issue. The fact remains that the police officers acted lawfully and correctly. If you feel otherwise you should take the issue further. I am certainly not entering into any further meaningless debate about it having had time to read your earlier postings. You obviously have a very fixed opinion on this issue and further debate is worthless.

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The fact remains that he acted lawfully and correctly, but he was unnecessarily arrested for doing so.

Nobody has stated an advantage in him being arrested immediately, because there was no advantage. Yes, there were text book answers to the theory and practice of arresting people but every case should be treated individually.

It would have become pretty clear very early on in this case that he had probably not committed a crime but he was treated the same as someone that probably had committed a crime, that is my gripe, its what I call lazy shoddy workmanship - this might not be by the officers on the case, it may be by people that set the policy - it still should be questioned.

This is the same situation that have arrested innocent parents and partners of people that have just been killed/murdered, can you imagine how horrific that must be!


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