Forums Forums National News Why On Earth Did They Arrest Him?

Another case of someone defending themselves and gets arrested for murder.

Two criminals invading someone's property versus one 78 year old man who is looking after his demented wife. I fail to understand why he was arrested, there was no need until further investigation was carried out.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...house-in-south-east-london-a3805251.html

Why? I imagine they thought his response was disproportionate.

You can't seriously expect the police to write off a death and do nothing because the deceased was a burglar, surely to goodness! And if it there is a possibility that it was murder, then you really can't expect the police to allow him to wander around and possibly murder someone else.

so its disproportionate to defend yourself when confronted by an intruder armed with a screw driver.

The scumbag got what he deserved and I'm not talking about the old man here. They pick on vulnerable people who they assume can't defend themselves , well this victim could! If anybody is in your house trying to harm or rob you well you do what you have to.
It's no surprise that you disagree with most people Ex, that halo of yours must get very heavy...

Two able-bodied men armed with screwdrivers against a 78 year old man, disproportionate?? What could be proportionate, his only chance was to scare them enough so they would leave (which is unlikely) or definitely disabling them, as most of us aren't forensic surgeons the exact minimum damage you can do to definitely disable them is uncalculable and even less so while you are being attacked.

He wasn't going to tickle them under their armpits and have a 5 second break to check if they tap out!

The law was clarified a few times over the last few years, you can't attack people that are leaving your premises, anything else goes provided it is clear that their presence is not wanted.

There was still no need for them to arrest the old man on the spot, I think he had enough excitement for the night without the police adding to it. The case will probably go to court and the charge almost certainly won't be murder.

So what would you do @Ex if you are 78 and you are protecting yourself, your disabled wife and your property?

You can't seriously expect the police to write off a death and do nothing because the deceased was a burglar, surely to goodness! And if it there is a possibility that it was murder, then you really can't expect the police to allow him to wander around and possibly murder someone else.[/quote]


There's a very simple solution. Shoot all the burglars and honest people won't have to kill them protecting what is rightfully theirs
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Would you have just allowed him to ransack your home Excoriator, to take all the things you'd collected throughout your life? You can't seriously expect people to stand idly by when an armed man breaks into their home equipped to cause injury.
Tell me you would and you've lost ANY credibility you might have had here.
Also, I seriously doubt the gentleman is a homicidal maniac that would go on the prowl looking for further victims to stab. He was defending what was rightfully his against a low life scumbag that can't be bothered being a decent member of society. Before you go off on one whining about how he must be a poor deprived victim, let me tell you there are millions of poor deprived victims that don't choose to steal from pensioners or anyone else for that matter. It was the burglar's choice to enter the man's house, he deserved whatever he got. It wasn't as if the old man had gone looking for someone to stab was it?

As usual, the hangers and floggers are all over this like a rash!

You really have no idea what went on. Neither do I, and it seems the police clearly think it needs investigating too. The one who died made it to hospital before doing so. Perhaps the police heard a very different story from him and the householder. Or perhaps the householder's story simply didn't fit the facts. He may even have a history of violent assault in the past. We just don't know yet.

I think you people would approve of the procedure in the court Alice attended in Wonderland where the sentence was carried out first, followed by the verdict after which came the evidence etc.

Curiously UK law holds the curious notion that human life is more valuable than any property. People who believe differently might like to decide the financial value of a human life. I would not be too surprised if someone would be stupid enough to do so!

Oh well done Excoriator, you really do show your full potential on here. I wonder if you'd be so defensive of the criminals if it was your home they burgled?

You dont often read about a police fire arms officer being arrested following a fatal shooting of a suspect. Best you get is the officer put on gardening leave and a independant police inquiry launched.
Interesting to see if this actually gets any further than CPS

This is only a closed forum Ex , not a jury deciding ! So ,with a discussion like this , most of just tend to take the most likely scenario , and comment on what we think about the various actions taken. Ok, so there's a million to one chance that the 78yr old had invited the teenagers to come along for a midnight cuppa and cake , had a funny turn, grabbed the screwdriver the kindly lads had brought along to do odd jobs for him , and decided to murder one in cold blood.

Not very likely though , is it .Far more likely its exactly as it looks . Weapon carrying yobs appear suddenly in the middle of the night in the home of a 78yr old , who is terrified ,panicky and vulnerable ,fearing what was going to happen to his poor wife upstairs when one of them pushes him into the kitchen. Enough to make any normal person lash out in terror .

If it all turns out to be quite different from what most of us presume, then fine, we'll just give views on the new evidence. What harm has been done ?

They could have been a couple of paedo vigilantes going in to sort out the 78 year old...(pigs might fly) ...> Either way he has in law the right to defend himself ...

I like to think I would, Habdab. Most certainly I would not have taken a knife and stabbed a burglar to death to protect my possessions. I'd prefer to lose the lot than have a man's blood on my hands. I have been burgled myself. It is irritating, but not the end of the world. I certainly didn't feel annoyed enough to wish the burglar dead.

That isn't to say I WANT to be burgled, and would be very happy to see the perpetrators face the law for it, but nothing I have is worth a man's life.

Obviously, you have a strong urge to vengeance and won't agree, but I think people come first and property very much second.

The right to bear arms maybe Fish? And look where that's got America!

The 78 yr old probably agreed with you Ex - he was putting the lives of himself and his wife first - I doubt he was bothered about his property at that particular moment ,just terrified he and his wife might be about to die.

What!? He disagrees with the two or three regular contributors on Wiki and thats it- you have him hung drawn and quartered? Cools, YOU are the one with pro-longed Ex. issues. See your previous posts. Nobody else. Behave.

If this goes to trail and he gets sent to jail, the Judge and jury should hang thier heads in shame, and the same goes to the ones that sent Tony Martin there,
It just goes to show how our legal systems needs a big over haul, its out of date! Just like the way the Government is run in this counrty
For the people by the people, i think i remember someone saying!

I find this quite extraordinary. The implication is that it's perfectly OK to murder to beat up some people but not others. What sort of rule of law is that? Bizarre!

Totally agree Venice,

what else where the police to do, they have a dead body, do they say "oh it's ok he was stabbed by a OAP we'll look the other way"

he won't get done for murder it will be manslaughter, the law says you can use reasonable force but I (myself) think stabbing someone is not reasonable force, I see it as stuff that gets robed can get replaced is it worth a life over.

look at all the stabbings going on in London/Liverpool should the police just walk on by and do f-all

you can't pick and choose what is a crime to suit yourself

Since the new laws in 2013, most similar cases have been charged but the CPS have taken the case no further.

My main gripe was arresting him on the spot before investigation was carried out, there was absolutely no need. What was the advantage of doing that?

There are implications from an arrest apart from the obvious distress, one of these being that he will be unlikely (or at least exceedingly difficult) to be able to get an American Visa should he want to visit the States, this probably applies to many other countries as well, VISA waver programs have exclusions and these can include arrests.

How on earth do you know? You were not there and really have little idea of what actually went on. For all you and I know, the pensioner could have been threatening the police with the knife, attempting to destroy evidence or threatening to hunt down and kill the other burglar.

You are welcome to an opinion, but please don't present it as if it were a fact.

Its a fact he was arrested for murder, that is not normally the charge for "threatening the police with the knife" or "attempting to destroy evidence" or "threatening to hunt down and kill the other burglar".

Yet again you resort to a personal attack based on your impression of what I think and not what I wrote, why do you do that?

This is a public forum, all posts are opinions unless stated otherwise, when I use the words "my main gripe" it would clearly indicate that it is an opinion.

I think the police have no choice but to arrest him at that Time I think they would of charged with attempted murder as it says the guy died in hospital and not at the scene, they would also need to remove him from the house so forensics can do their thing. And they would call a police doc if he was in a bad way (I hope)

And no charges are going to be brought SOURCE

However, because he has been arrested he would now need a visa if he wishes to visit America, not only is this a real faff to achieve, it may be refused.

he won't get done for murder it will be manslaughter, the law says you can use reasonable force but I (myself) think stabbing someone is not reasonable force, I see it as stuff that gets robed can get replaced is it worth a life over.

l
Well that's alright then, only manslaughter! this isn't about stealing peoples belongings, this is about a burglar allegedly armed with a screwdriver breaking into an OAP's house, how did the homeowner know what his intentions were? he is faced with two youngish assailants, what went through his head? torture, rape the safety of his family I don't think he was worrying about his telly being pinched,

Well thankfully sense prevails. He will face no charges it just said on the news. The burglar was 37 and already had convictions for robbery.

This is just me thinking out loud but I would like to know if this was a 30/40 year old guy would he be let off as well. (let off maybe the wrong word but I can't think of another word to use)

Does it matter what age someone is ? fear has no age limit, fight or flight, I chased someone climbing over our back door, the first thought is outrage how dare they what gives them the right, the red mist descends and rational thinking and sense go out of the door ( along with the house breaker) its very easy to act on impulse, it's afterward when you think about what could have happened.

One exception stated as a possibility was if you were drunk etc where your judgement of the situation could be impaired. There is still no right to attack a person who is just a trespasser.

The 2013 act clarified reasonable force as not "grossly disproportionate" in situations where you are defending a place of residence.

The poor pensioners life changed forever now,he's got to live with having taken someone's life, something he was provoked into. Something like this could kill a person mentally and at his age too. The other one not been caught yet that must be a worry as well.

I'd say "there was absolutely no need." is a little stronger than an opinion, wouldn't you?

I'd say it would be very difficult to use those words without it being an opinion, it clearly indicates that it was the opposite to what happened so it can only be an opinion.

will you two get a room already

My late Father would have fought to the death to protect my disabled Mother ages 94 & 90 . He would have gladly given everything he possessed to stop them .This poor man didn't know what they may have done . There are men out there who would delight in attacking a frail woman .Im not suggesting they would but the possibility was there & I for one wouldn't expect anyone to take time to wait & see.

it is safe to kill an intruder in your home but you cannot chase them, you chase after them and you are on a murder charge.
The arrest is standard procedure.

Sadly slightly prophetic......police shoot and kill 40 year old man in romford for just saying he had a gun in a threatening manner. They took no chances .....worry is if this was a deliberate over reaction following the comments about police losing the streets in london following all the knife crime..why cant they fire tranquilisers to start with and then resort to lethal force if needed.
Not read if he actually had a gun or was brandishing it..

Sadly tranquillisers are not instant, can be unpredictable and are not the weapon of choice in these situations. That's why escaped wild animals in the community are usually shot dead instead of being tranquillised. There is too much risk to the public.. In Canada and the USA the police take a far more aggressive role in these situations and if you are stupid enough to go around saying you have a gun you will end up dead.

Regarding whether he should have been arrested...........yes he should have been! An arrest is not a conviction, it is a means of detaining a person until the police can clarify facts. They were presented with a dead body and a person who admits to killing the deceased. They have to investigate fully otherwise the council may as well start issuing red bins for the corpses of intruders. Many killers have tried to write off the deceased as just an intruder. Also killing a younger more able person does not make you automatically innocent. In 1985 Kenneth Noye found an intruder in the garden of his home and stabbed him to death. The deceased was Detective Constable John Fordham who was engaged in police surveillance of the property. Despite this Noye was acquitted of murder on the grounds of 'self defence'. I can understand the public knee jerk reaction to this man being arrested, but for the police it is not that simple. They have to take a less blinkered view and look at the facts. For instance, if you are unlucky enough to be walking in the woods and come across a murdered corpse and phone the police to report the find, their first suspect is going to be YOU, unfair as that may seem.

This poor man must be having a terrible time . Not only does he have to live with the knowledge he has taken a life albeit in self defence of his family , but now the scumbag family of the deceased are threatening revenge on him . Just what he needs at this stage of his life , ageing himself , and facing lord knows what sort of future with his Alzheimers suffering wife. The family and friends of the burglar had made a shrine to him , which supporters of the old man have now ripped down. Horrible situation.

Yes Venice terrible situation and like you say, not what you want at his age (or any age).

@tiger, you have given reasons why he "could" be arrested but no indications as to why he "had" to be arrested. As I keep on saying, there are major repercussions from being arrested even if you are totally exonerated of any crime, I see absolutely no need to arrest him immediately, he was very unlikely to do a runner, he co-operated fully, what was gained by arresting him?

There are myriad reasons why he should have been arrested and absolutely no reasons why he should not have been. First reason to arrest him was because it was a murder investigation. It really does not get any more serious than that. All as the police have is his story...........and he is the one who has taken the life of another. The police have no idea what has gone on or whether or not he and the deceased knew each other etc. Second reason is for his own safety. They have no idea what his state of mind is. He could have killed himself through remorse and the police would have looked a little bit stupid leaving him there. Also they would have looked equally stupid if they had left him there and the deceased person's family had arrived and murdered him. How exactly can you make the assumption 'he was very unlikely to do a runner'? I have spent decades working with offenders in forensic mental health and never ever made that assumption and I certainly would not dream of doing so in this case as, like you, I have absolutely no knowledge of this man and what he is capable of. Being arrested is nothing more than having your liberty taken away for a short period. If you are not charged with and convicted of an offence you can confidently describe yourself as not having convictions on any DBS application and no convictions will show. Under the circumstances the police had absolutely no choice other than arrest him and remove him from the scene until such time as they were satisfied with his account.
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I have no knowledge of most people, that is hardly justification to arrest them? I will ask again, what was gained by arresting him?



That is not the case when it comes to visa waiver programs, here are the words for the USA Visa Waiver eligibility ...

" Travelers who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, those with criminal records, (the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law), certain serious communicable illnesses, those who have been refused admission into, or have been deported from, the United States, or have previously overstayed on the VWP are not eligible to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program;"

Getting a US visa is a right royal pain in the backside, its expensive, its time consuming, its stressful and it can all be a waste of time and money if it is turned down (as many are!)

I have a UK conviction from 40 years ago, there is no record of it in the UK (its not in police records, its not in local or central court records) but because of it I have to apply for a Visa to go to the States. No doubt under Trump its going to be even more of a gamble whether you get a Visa.

He was arrested to protect him, protect the public, preserve the scene of the crime, prevent further offences and to enable the police to conduct a proper and thorough investigation. I am rather baffled by your almost obessive debate on how being arrested will affect his ability to obtain a visa to visit the USA. I certainly know that the police officers at the scene would not have given that argument much consideration and I certainly feel it has absolutely no bearing on the issue. The fact remains that the police officers acted lawfully and correctly. If you feel otherwise you should take the issue further. I am certainly not entering into any further meaningless debate about it having had time to read your earlier postings. You obviously have a very fixed opinion on this issue and further debate is worthless.

The fact remains that he acted lawfully and correctly, but he was unnecessarily arrested for doing so.

Nobody has stated an advantage in him being arrested immediately, because there was no advantage. Yes, there were text book answers to the theory and practice of arresting people but every case should be treated individually.

It would have become pretty clear very early on in this case that he had probably not committed a crime but he was treated the same as someone that probably had committed a crime, that is my gripe, its what I call lazy shoddy workmanship - this might not be by the officers on the case, it may be by people that set the policy - it still should be questioned.

This is the same situation that have arrested innocent parents and partners of people that have just been killed/murdered, can you imagine how horrific that must be!