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Russia #1053556
14th Mar 2018 6:49pm
14th Mar 2018 6:49pm
Joined: Aug 2013
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cools Offline OP
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After getting myself all worked up over the Trump and Kim thing now I've got to worry about this! We could do without having Russia as an enemy! I mean can they really really prove it was the Russian government who did this or some other source who have made it look that way? I don't know enough about it all really , just find it worrying again...

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Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053558
14th Mar 2018 9:47pm
14th Mar 2018 9:47pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,901
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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If we managed to identify the nerve agent as Novichok then we must be able to produce it and the same goes for many other countries.

It pays a lot of other countries for this to happen, it is of no benefit to the UK nor Russia.

To identify the chemical as Russian is a joke but of course the USA have goaded us on. Furthermore the Russians are right, we haven't followed the Chemical Weapons Convention.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053570
14th Mar 2018 10:56pm
14th Mar 2018 10:56pm
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Heswallish
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fish5133 Online content
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Right DD "qui bono" (who benefits) in stirring up discord between UK and Russia?

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053571
14th Mar 2018 11:38pm
14th Mar 2018 11:38pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,901
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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Most of the EU countries, the last thing they want when we leave is any sort of pact or co-operation between us and Russia.

USA because their military want the cold war to start again to get more power and funding.

Any of the middle east countries that we have done our best to totally mistreat, they are desperate for attention to wander elsewhere.

Anybody that wanted to test a nerve agent without it being traced to source.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Russia [Re: diggingdeeper] #1053573
15th Mar 2018 9:21am
15th Mar 2018 9:21am
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,586
wallasey
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casper Online content
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Come on folks, you cant see the wood for the tree's, poor old Russia is being blamed maligned, it wasn't us guv, so why don't they cooperate? any right minded person / government would go out of their way to prove they were innocent but no, deny deny deny, basically we have had the two fingers, they have done it before and got away with it and expected the same to happen again.

As to the middle east dd, I am sure if the had access to Novichok they would have used it in a more effective manner.

The EU involved really, we trained in Germany as part of NATO for years, who do you think the threat was from?

The most likely scenario is Putin is up for election and wanted to send a message to those thinking of opposing him, no place to hide.

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053574
15th Mar 2018 9:58am
15th Mar 2018 9:58am
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Wirral
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Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053575
15th Mar 2018 9:59am
15th Mar 2018 9:59am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 86
Wallasey village
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Near_Oval Offline
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Another view of election time in Russia is that he is able to show an appearance of strength in power - average Russian citizen has no interest in overseas issues neither are thery impacted by what the UK could bring into play as sanctions.
But they can be impressed by sabre rattling on UK part as being given the figurative two fingered salute.

I believe the nerve agents have specific chemical signatures that can be traced to orignal source/development, how have the powers that be not publicised this?
One source a=stated it can take weeks to unpick the composition is it possible UK has jumped the gun?

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053582
15th Mar 2018 11:41am
15th Mar 2018 11:41am
Joined: Jul 2008
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Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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I don't think the average voting Russian wants reminding of the KGB, it could be a dodgy strategy. Other than that its true they want a "strong" President that wouldn't keel over at the first challenge.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053586
15th Mar 2018 1:20pm
15th Mar 2018 1:20pm
Joined: Mar 2010
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Heswallish
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fish5133 Online content
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Heswallish
casper;;; russia may know its innocent and just wants to make the UK government look complete idiots..you can learn a lot about your opponent and their tactics when you hold 4 aces and they claim to have one. Dont feel too safe after watching the UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson he looks like an undergraduate fresh out of Eaton.

Re: Russia [Re: fish5133] #1053588
15th Mar 2018 1:53pm
15th Mar 2018 1:53pm
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wallasey
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casper Online content
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wallasey
Don't forget that we are dealing with a culture its History steeped in mistrust, cruelty and mass murder, worse than that of the Nazis if that is possible, that fear still lurks in the background for those that oppose the hardliners, this is a country that has no qualms in murdering its own people and they care very little about what others think, their troops are highly trained in nbc warfare, Civilian aircraft shot down (it wasn't us guv) others murdered on uk streets deny, deny , deny, the question is how long do we turn a blind eye?

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053607
15th Mar 2018 3:08pm
15th Mar 2018 3:08pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,901
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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Also don't forget we are dealing with a Tory Government who are used to lying and getting away with it to the gullible Tory voters.

Watching the various comments by May, Boris, Gavin Williamson etc shows how accustomed they are to saying anything they like despite no evidence it is true.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053610
15th Mar 2018 5:26pm
15th Mar 2018 5:26pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,548
wirral
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DD is correct. I see no motive for Russia or Putin to assassinate a spy who was imprisoned and later exchanged in the cold war, particularly in such a manner calculated to cause hackles to be raised in the West. Blaming Russia is a bit like finding someone bludgeoned to death by a giant frozen Cornish pasty and concluding that the Cornwall County council are responsible! Laughable.

I suspect Ukraine may be responsible. It would have had access to the poison used during the Soviet period, and having lost a lot of what it maintains is its territory to Russia has every motive to discredit its enemy. Another possibility is the UK. It is remarkable how the assassination has swept from the media all reference to the EU's complete rejection of all the proposals made by Mrs. May in her last brilliant party-uniting speech. Also, it will do no harm to the armed forces and the security forces when the next doling out of cash takes place of course.

Casper. It is very easy to paint ANY country as black as you like. Look at the UK with wealth built on slavery, its activities the Scottish clearances and the brutality of the Black and tans in Ireland for instance. More recently we have the 'shoot to kill ' policy in Northern Ireland and Bloody Sunday. In the mainland, we had the police in the West Midlands writing statements to imprison innocent people, and even today we have the most appalling prison conditions, filthy, overcrowded and rat infested. Our streets are littered with people sleeping in shop doorways and food banks because people cannot feed themselves on their wages. I mention this not to 'prove' the UK is worse than any other country, but rather to show how easy it is to paint a false picture of a country.

Finally, I wonder what is meant by 'military grade' nerve agents. It implies there may be 'industrial' grades that will give you a disabling bellyache but not kill you, and perhaps 'commercial' grades that will just make you twitch a bit! But probably the real reason is to make it sound more scary, so nobody will question the government blaming Russia.

Sadly, we have a government to whom the truth is meaningless.

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053614
15th Mar 2018 5:57pm
15th Mar 2018 5:57pm
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,737
Heswallish
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fish5133 Online content
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Casper is half right but like myself many years back i had the rose tinted specs of Great Britain being a wonderful benign country helping to rid the world of Hitler etc etc. Thats part true but as you say EX a closer look at our own History is embarrassing if you wave the pontifical arent we good drum.
The classic false flag was the Israelis who blew up the King David Hotel disguised as arabs..

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053616
15th Mar 2018 6:34pm
15th Mar 2018 6:34pm
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Well, I was born in 1942, and as a young boy firmly believed we had won WW2. As I grew older I realised that it was Hitlers decision to attack Russia, that had 'won' the war for us. It was a disastrous campaign for them as well as Russia, and the Russians lost an estimated 20 million people in it, The German army was defeated by a combination of Russian resistance and their terrible winters, rather than by the UK. Compared to what that did to the German war effort the UK's contribution was far smaller. Had Hitler invaded the UK rather than heading east, there is little doubt we would have lost.

It appears from what I have since read that Hitler was something of an anglophile, and felt that England would eventually come over to his side. There is some justification for this too. A large section of the aristocracy was sympathetic to fascism, and at the time they were a lot more powerful than they are now. The Daily Mail, for instance, actually supported Hitler at one point!

The devil is, as ever, in the detail, and when you start looking into what one thinks are indisputable facts, the smell of sulphur is often very noticeable.

Re: Russia [Re: cools] #1053618
15th Mar 2018 6:49pm
15th Mar 2018 6:49pm
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 56
Leasowe
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Bobario Offline
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I've never been one for conspiracy theories but I think there is more to this than meets the eye. I think the Russians have messed with us once too often and our government have finally decided to draw a line in the sand and warn them off. Lots of Russian defectors killed on the streets and regular air and sea intrusions on our territory.

Unfortunately there may not be a way to pin this 100% on Russia. Any tom dick and harry could get their hands on the basic recipe as it is in the inventors book. Also, the factory that used to manufacture it was in Uzbekistan (iirc), and was apparently closed down by a US team (who could have taken samples and/or the formula). If its old stock any batch numbers would surely lead away from Russia.

If the PM is right and we have concrete proof that this stuff came from Russia why are we not sending samples to them and the OPCW?

Also, why the hell are we vaccinating our troops against anthrax? Have we got another batch of dodgy vaccines to test on our poor troops like they did in the 1st gulf war?

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