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Boris getting worried? #1052557
14th Feb 2018 9:12am
14th Feb 2018 9:12am
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Here's Boris attempting to reassure worried voters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43045553

I guess they are worried that the country is waking up to the fact that they have been lied to and brexit is a disaster. Probably George Soros' recent generous donations to the remain campaign has them worried too.

The present situation is that we have a choice of

1. A soft brexit where we are in the EU, but with no say in any rules and regulations it may bring in, and unable to trade with anyone else and no control over our borders, or
2. A hard brexit where we will suffer charges on our exports to Europe, lose our banking industry, and have border posts in Northern Ireland.

The second option would also mean the DUP withdrawing support from the government and its subsequent collapse followed by an election.

How either of these unpalatable options can be presented as anything good is hard to see, but I expect with a few more lies the gullible can be reassured, for a while at least.

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Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052566
14th Feb 2018 11:26am
14th Feb 2018 11:26am
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The more I see, hear and read about Brexit the more it becomes obvious that this government have absolutely no idea what : has been agreed thus far ,they need to do, what is happening now and how the country will trade with any other country after the fateful day. Cameron and his advisors showed an appalling lack of knowledge of public opinion when he authorised the referendum, people were fed lies, and false promises by the leavers and the remainers made little or no effort to put counter arguments. A sorry day for our future.

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052567
14th Feb 2018 12:35pm
14th Feb 2018 12:35pm
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It seems that those regions who voted most enthusiastically to leave are going to suffer the most. Although this was always pretty obvious, one is tempted to say serve them right. But it is clearly going to cause untold distress and problems to fellow human beings and I would prefer that it doesn't happen all.

Anyone wanting to fight to remain can contact a campaign group and contribute here:

https://www.gofundme.com/FightforYo...aign&utm_campaign=donation_receiptv5

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052568
14th Feb 2018 1:19pm
14th Feb 2018 1:19pm
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Both sides spouted rubbish during the lead-up to the referendum as indeed they do before elections etc. Our politicians need to be more accountable.

I think Boris's problem at the moment is that Rees-Mogg looks like being the heir apparent.

The only good thing I can say about Boris is that he was a better Mayor of London than Sadiq Khan but neither match up to Ken, who surprised me.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052569
14th Feb 2018 2:33pm
14th Feb 2018 2:33pm
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I don't think much rubbish came from the remain camp. The border issue with Ireland was predicted as was the devaluation inflicted on the pound, along with the banking industy's departure, and the difficulty it will create in globalised industries like cars where engines come from one country, doors from another, seats from a third etc. etc. It was all blown away by bullshit from Johnson and co spouting nonsense about 'Sovereignty'.

But now the date is imminent, it is harder to ignore these 'little problems'.

The most interesting thing is that the brexiteers are now trying to 'build bridges' with remainers in the hope of persuading them that it will be all right on the night. You only need to do that if you are pretty sure that it won't be, and that the chances of the show being called off entirely is now significant. For that reason, I was pleased to hear the fat fraud's attempt at a charm offensive. However, I don't find the friendly emollient version of the F.S. any more attractive or convincing than the oafish triumphalist one we are familiar with.

The whole thing is an unholy unresolvable mess, and the sooner it is abandoned the better for us all.

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052570
14th Feb 2018 2:39pm
14th Feb 2018 2:39pm
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As much as i like the bumbling buffoon ...Of all people to try and reassure about Brexit.......I think not

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052587
14th Feb 2018 6:29pm
14th Feb 2018 6:29pm
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Originally Posted by Excoriator
I don't think much rubbish came from the remain camp


Its funny that most Brexiteers realised what rubbish was talked by both sides but remainers generally won't admit anything wrong with the remain campaign. I guess that proves at least one side must be wrong - but which smile

Originally Posted by Excoriator
The most interesting thing is that the brexiteers are now trying to 'build bridges' with remainers


Err, isn't that what should happen or should we have a civil war instead?

Originally Posted by Excoriator
The whole thing is an unholy unresolvable mess, and the sooner it is abandoned the better for us all.


Yes, everything to do with the EU is a mess, there shouldn't be much trouble leaving but the EU chose Barnier to make it as awkward as possible. There are twelve EU countries openly complaining about Barniers attitude to Brexit, some of them obviously are looking at their future interests because they realise they might leave at some point.

We are leaving a minority protectionist clique to rejoin the majority in the rest of the World to which we were precluded, what on earth can be wrong with that.

Their only objective is making a United State. People can be in denial of this like ignoring the progress of making an EU controlled military force but it is happening. They (an unelected body within the EU) have control of our borders, our money, our laws and our spending, their is only our military left.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1052619
14th Feb 2018 8:01pm
14th Feb 2018 8:01pm
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
[quote=Ex

We are leaving a minority protectionist clique to rejoin the majority in the rest of the World to which we were precluded, what on earth can be wrong with that.
Their only objective is making a
United State. People can be in denial of this like ignoring the progress of making an EU controlled military force but it is happening. They (an unelected body within the EU) have control of our borders, our money, our laws and our spending, their is only our military left.



What military ? like our emergency services it has been run into the ground, as it stands we would be unable to counter any viable threat alone, all we have is a glorified reaction force.

I remember being in Germany on Ex Lionheart in 1982 everything thrown in the line, regulars, reserves ,terriers, what have we now?

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: casper] #1052626
14th Feb 2018 9:14pm
14th Feb 2018 9:14pm
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Originally Posted by casper
What military ? like our emergency services it has been run into the ground, as it stands we would be unable to counter any viable threat alone, all we have is a glorified reaction force


We spend more than most countries do on our military but of course we rent it out and get some of that money back.

We have chosen to go for higher tech equipment rather than more cannon fodder which I suppose is a good thing although military tech companies are raking us good style despite us also acting as their sales promoters.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052637
15th Feb 2018 9:37am
15th Feb 2018 9:37am
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To my mind Barnier has behaved fairly throughout. The EU has rules - to which we subscribed as members - about how the EU should treat countries outside it, and the leaving procedure. He has adhered to them, pointing out again and again the four indivisible freedoms which the UK - as a non member- cannot change. He has also pointed out that the UK cannot have its cake and eat it. Absolutely fair comment.

It is the UK which has sought all along to flount these rules, expecting special concessions, special treatment etc, many of them both contradictory and impossible. He has asked many times, publicly, "What does the UK want?" and received no comprehensible answer. Even now, the UK government is still attempting to construct a clear plan. Do we want a transition period? Do we want a hard Brexit? Do we want a soft one? Do we want borders in Northern Ireland etc. After frittering away most of the two years in futile yah-boo abuse of the EU, we STILL have no idea of what we want let alone how to get it.

Never mind about Barnier. I would like to know what we want too! So would most British people!

Any mess is entirely of the UK's making. It is not as if we actually WANT to leave the EU any more according to numerous polls. How the EU is supposed to make any meaningful progress faced with a mess like this is baffling. It is the hard core brexiteers who need to get their ideas sorted out. It seems to me that their enthusiasm was not tempered with any consideration of the implications.

As to the old straw man about a "United states of Europe" there is clearly no intention of going this way. Why on earth should there be? As a political entity the union is an enormous success. It is already richer than the USA, and growing strongly, and there is a waiting list of five or six nations wishing to join it. None of the member states is in favour of it and never have been. As independent states they can make their own decisions on foreign policy - like whether to invade Iraq. There is no "European Army" and no real enthusiasm for one.

The Brexit camp spouted nonsensical jingoistic lies throughout the campaign and are still doing so. They have a bloody cheek now pretending to 'build bridges' after 18 months of telling remainers (now apparently in the majority) they are losers and to 'suck it up'.

It is high time this departure from sanity came to a stop. We are far better in than out, and the majority of the British people are now remainers. Time to let the will of the people prevail.

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: Excoriator] #1052644
15th Feb 2018 2:39pm
15th Feb 2018 2:39pm
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Originally Posted by Excoriator
To my mind Barnier has behaved fairly throughout.

How come even other EU leaders are saying that he is treating us unfairly then?

Originally Posted by Excoriator
The EU has rules - to which we subscribed as members - about how the EU should treat countries outside it, and the leaving procedure. He has adhered to them, pointing out again and again the four indivisible freedoms which the UK - as a non member- cannot change.

The leaving procedure mentions nothing about charging for future payments.

As I have mention loads of times, the EU has many trade deals with outsiders that don't have all the "four invisible freedoms", specifically the freedom of movement.

Originally Posted by Excoriator
It is the UK which has sought all along to flount these rules, expecting special concessions, special treatment etc

Exactly the same as every other EU and non-EU countries have, you seem to thing the EU has common policies, there are thousands of exceptions.

Originally Posted by Excoriator
It is not as if we actually WANT to leave the EU any more according to numerous polls.

I haven't seen a poll for a long time that differentiates between wanting to leave the EU and concern about the deal we might be getting.

Originally Posted by Excoriator
As to the old straw man about a "United states of Europe" there is clearly no intention of going this way. Why on earth should there be?

Because that is what has happened, what aspect of our country does the EU not have some control over? Our military is the only thing it has not taken over yet.

Originally Posted by Excoriator
There is no "European Army" and no real enthusiasm for one.

There is already an EU controlled military, there are also a continuous stream of proposals on how to create a full blown EU military.

Originally Posted by Excoriator
It is already richer than the USA

No it isn't, the USA is over 50% richer per adult. The UK is richer than any other EU country and even we aren't as rich per adult as the USA. The fact you are comparing the EU to the USA shows how much it is considered as a state.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1052647
15th Feb 2018 4:14pm
15th Feb 2018 4:14pm
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To be fair the EU has been consistent with the four freedoms in saying they are not up for negotiation if we want a trade deal, this seems to have fallen on deaf ears, I don't think they could have been any clearer, Norway accepted freedom of movement as part of their deal, why should we think it will not apply to us? the choices seem crystal clear we stay in as full members, we stay in as part members accepting the four freedoms, or we leave with no deal a hard brexit.

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: casper] #1052679
16th Feb 2018 5:42am
16th Feb 2018 5:42am
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Originally Posted by casper
To be fair the EU has been consistent with the four freedoms


The Isle of Man has never had freedom of movement yet has freedom of trade.

The Channel Islands have free trade agreements without freedom of movement.

The CETA agreement is a mix and match without any freedom of movement.

Greenland left the EEC and has free trade agreements but not freedom of movement.

Algeria left the EEC and has free trade agreements without freedom of movement.

Aruba has free trade agreements without freedom of movement.

Japan is about to have free trade AND services agreement without freedom of movement.

The EU deals with most of the rest of the world with trade agreements but without freedom of movement, they even have a partnership agreement with Mexico.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1052681
16th Feb 2018 8:31am
16th Feb 2018 8:31am
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If its so simple then DD why have we not cited all these trade agreements and demanded a like arrangement? it should be a simple matter should it not

Re: Boris getting worried? [Re: casper] #1052687
16th Feb 2018 1:28pm
16th Feb 2018 1:28pm
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Originally Posted by casper
If its so simple then DD why have we not cited all these trade agreements and demanded a like arrangement? it should be a simple matter should it not


We have and that is the frustration but because Barnier and his ilk know there is a queue of countries wanting to leave the EU he feels the need to punish us to frighten the others.

As soon as the EU stops giving Poland massive amounts of money each year, Poland will leave, they are being bribed on a huge scale to stay. Poland are purposely being made more dependent on the EU, being a lower price industrial nation they should be thriving in the current world but they aren't, their industry is being held back. At the drop of a hat Poland could become another Greece if they allow the EU to continue to control them.

Going back to the EU military, Article 14.2 is in existence to create a common military, it is mainly the UK that has stopped this happening, Denmark has excluded itself from this process but once the UK leave there is virtually nothing left to stop the common EU military becoming reality. As soon as that happens then the United States of Germany will be complete, it controls the money, it controls the law, it controls the military, that is a coup.

How Germany managed to persuade the other EU nations to give away their power of veto is beyond me, you have to be blind to see what the objective was. Like sheep to the slaughter!


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
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