WikiWirral values you and your opinion.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,004,927
Topics74,350
Members12,652
Forums66
Posts in last 24hrs2
Most Online7,831
Apr 8th, 2013
Who's Online Now
55 registered members (alan128, 11 invisible), 1,032 guests, and311 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
New General Forums
Trump separating children from parents.
by venice. 20th Jun 2018 12:27pm
Happy Birthday Ste and Jase
by TRANCENTRAL. 12th Jun 2018 11:12pm
Written Warning - Really?
by diggingdeeper. 12th Jun 2018 10:18pm
Paul McCartney
by cools. 10th Jun 2018 7:03pm
New Wirral History
Davies Street
by Medicdeano. 11th Jun 2018 1:32pm
Submerged Church
by granny. 5th Jun 2018 11:42am
Birkenhead Priory - great place to visit
by yoller. 2nd Jun 2018 12:45pm
Ashville Road Sports Ground
by derekdwc. 26th May 2018 1:14pm
Day School Beckwith Street Birkenhead
by Poolie27. 25th May 2018 5:37pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Birkenhead Priory / Laird's crane today
Terracotta Warriors 2
Topic Replies
Giants to visit New Brighton Lighthouse
by Norton. 22nd Jun 2018 1:13pm
4 x 2gb DDR2 800mhz dimms
by gerrymoore. 22nd Jun 2018 10:34am
Finds from yesterday 13/06/18
by Gibbo. 22nd Jun 2018 10:07am
NHS RIP
by dingle. 21st Jun 2018 7:51am
live webcam from africa, a must see
by granny. 20th Jun 2018 5:32pm
Beatties of Birkenhead to close down
by venice. 20th Jun 2018 11:54am
Another Parking Ticket
by Gibbo. 20th Jun 2018 10:37am
Litter Police : Clean Neighbourhoods Act 2005
by fish5133. 20th Jun 2018 9:46am
More Brexit Lunacy
by casper. 19th Jun 2018 4:35pm
June
M T W T F S S
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Giants to visit New Brighton Lighthouse
by Norton. 22nd Jun 2018 1:13pm
Drive in Cinema, Birkenhead
by fish5133. 4th Jun 2018 10:43pm
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rating 5
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Brexit payment #1051211
10th Jan 2018 2:56pm
10th Jan 2018 2:56pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
A friend sent me this and Im not sure whether I agree with him or not .He seems right, but would Mrs May really put herself in that position? Thought Id put it on here to get other opinions. Sorry if the points been covered before and I missed it.

Beginning of friends question.
" I really do hope that you can convince me I am wrong.

This https://www.conservativehome.com/pa...-we-achieve-them-by-different-means.html is the most concise evidence I could find to sustain my opinion. Not surprisingly it appears to say I am wrong but think about her words and you will understand why I said she has irrevocably given the money away.

I do not see where she states “ the agreement” is an offer subject to a satisfactory trade agreement. I do see that she has identified the billions agreed as being fair settlement for nothing else other than fair settlement of commitments.

So having clearly identified the payment as being for “obligations” she goes into full bullshit mode and states. “It depends upon a broader agreement being reached – as I have said, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed – so if there is no agreement then our offer also falls away."

So deal or no deal the EU will claim we are obliged to pay that money as payment for commitments. Having put in writing what is agreed and what it’s for can you imagine the EU doing other than use her own words to destroy our reputation if we tried to walk away without paying? (end of friends comment)

Google Ads
Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051217
10th Jan 2018 6:23pm
10th Jan 2018 6:23pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
The obligations are always questionable, we are a shareholder in the EU, when you give up your shares it is exceedingly unusual for the obligations to not also be wiped out.

Additionally the next EU budget is set in 2020, any so called obligations should only be those that are due to be paid before the next budget.

But in reality I don't mind paying a reasonable sum especially if there is a transition period. That sum ideally should exceed our expected NET contributions up to 2020 but unfortunately it will

There will only be one final signature, all prior "agreements" will be conditional one would hope, I can't see how it can be any other way as up to that signature we cannot be anything other than EU members.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051264
11th Jan 2018 2:18pm
11th Jan 2018 2:18pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
E
Excoriator Online content
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Online Content
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
I think you people should face the facts.

The first phase of the negotiations involved agreeing what we owed. That was done and is now History. It was agreed by Mrs May, as was the 'no borders' policy which means we are locked into the customs union. There is absolutely nothing linking these with any trade agreements. They have been signed off and agreed. We would not be entering phase two unless they were.

The only way we can get out of both these agreements is a 'no deal' brexit.

Anything coming from the conservative party will be deliberately made ambiguous so that both brexiteers and remainers in the party will read it the way they want it to read. The facts, however, are as above.

So far we have agreed to pay a great deal of money to be in the customs union (as we are now) but to have no control over it! I don't - for once - blame the conservatives for this. They have no choice. It is the inevitable consequence of getting out of the EU according to laws which WE agreed to as members.


Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051266
11th Jan 2018 3:16pm
11th Jan 2018 3:16pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
I dont understand how the Remainers are not pointing to this phrase

“It depends upon a broader agreement being reached – as I have said, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed – so if there is no agreement then our offer also falls away."

As the bare faced lie it has to be ? I mean its REALLY the opp of the truth! There IS no way we can just walk away without paying even without a deal , just as my friend says , is there .

Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051273
11th Jan 2018 5:54pm
11th Jan 2018 5:54pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
E
Excoriator Online content
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Online Content
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
Yes. A hard brexit would mean we would do exactly that.

The result would be disastrous for us, however. They would probably slap heavy tariffs on our exports to them, and the result would be a hemorrhaging of manufacturing and finance from the UK to the EU, bad relations with the EU, and no prospect of trade deals with them.

The three alternatives - with some of their plusses and minuses - are:

1. Stay in. Business as usual
2. Soft Brexit. Expensive, but trade with them is undamaged. We remain in the customs union with no control over it. We would not be allowed to set up trade deals with other countries without the EU's blessing.
3. Hard brexit. We 'walk away'. The implications are trade barriers, a border in Northern Ireland, loss of UK industry and jobs to the EU. we would be free to set up trade deals under the WTO with other countries but this will take up to a decade. Probably the UK government - desperate for trade with other nations - will be being pushed into very bad agreements for the UK. If David Davis is doing the negotiation they will be appaling deals for us.

Re: Brexit payment [Re: Excoriator] #1051274
11th Jan 2018 6:10pm
11th Jan 2018 6:10pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
How can we "owe" anything when we have ALWAYS been a net contributor. Unlike most other member states we have always put in more than we have taken out. We owe nothing. if anything, they owe us. That is a "fact".

Originally Posted by Excoriator
There is absolutely nothing linking these with any trade agreements.


The EU INSIST that trade, finance and freedom of movement are linked - its funny how they change their own impositions when they are dealing with Brexit!

The whole EU concept is flawed that it relies on certain countries continually gifting money to other countries, they should have been limited loans with re-payments based on trade-balance. That way their would be an incentive for the EU to get these other countries on their feet properly instead of just being a cash-cow putting useless tin statues up all over the place.

But of course Germany wanted a cheap flexible workforce to boost its own economy so it pays Germany to keep some of the other countries in poverty.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051277
11th Jan 2018 6:31pm
11th Jan 2018 6:31pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
As a net contributor DD, surely that just means that the system must have worked out what was fair for each country to pay, according to its means and we accepted that position. I dont see that that necessarily means that just because we will be leaving , we can now choose to reposition ourselves in the 'what is fair for them to pay' list , to avoid paying our previously agreed share of past present or future obligations or committments right up to 2020?

Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051278
11th Jan 2018 6:38pm
11th Jan 2018 6:38pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,278
Wirral
Moonstar Offline

Forum Addict
Moonstar  Offline

Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,278
Wirral
All those busy bees working for the EU will need to have their pensions paid and we will be liable for our share of that.

Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051280
11th Jan 2018 6:46pm
11th Jan 2018 6:46pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
E
Excoriator Online content
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Online Content
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
I see Farage is now sounding off about a second referendum.

I'd prefer to see our sovereign parliament making the decision. It is too easy for rabble-rousers to influence referendums. As we have seen already.

Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051281
11th Jan 2018 6:48pm
11th Jan 2018 6:48pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
E
Excoriator Online content
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Online Content
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
The UK agreed to the conditions now being imposed by the EU.

That is seldom mentioned by the EU-bashers.

Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051282
11th Jan 2018 6:52pm
11th Jan 2018 6:52pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
Originally Posted by venice
As a net contributor DD, surely that just means that the system must have worked out what was fair for each country to pay, according to its means and we accepted that position. I dont see that that necessarily means that just because we will be leaving , we can now choose to reposition ourselves in the 'what is fair for them to pay' list , to avoid paying our previously agreed share of past present or future obligations or committments right up to 2020?


My point is that we cannot possibly be considered in debt to them so we "owe" them nothing.

There is no such thing as a "future obligation", they are agreements which can be changed especially if circumstances change and Brexit would count as a pretty big change. I'm sure many of those projects will change in the 2020 budget.

The EU claimed obligations go way beyond 2020.

Supposing we weren't a net contributor, would the EU pay us their "obligations" to our Brexit? That is a normal test of a fair contract, it can't be one sided.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit payment [Re: venice] #1051283
11th Jan 2018 6:53pm
11th Jan 2018 6:53pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
E
Excoriator Online content
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Online Content
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,495
wirral
They are not 'linked' in the sense that one can be traded off at the expense of another DD. They are linked only by being one of the four freedoms - free movement of trade, capital, work and people.

The UK, despite being told many times that they cannot get rid of free movement of people by some trade or financial settlement - insist on pretending they can.

I think any posturing by Davis should be ignored. What will happen in the end is what happened in phase 1. May will appear at the last moment and give the EU what it wants. She has no other option.

Re: Brexit payment [Re: diggingdeeper] #1051284
11th Jan 2018 6:55pm
11th Jan 2018 6:55pm
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Guardian
venice  Offline OP

Forum Guardian
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,345
Wirral
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The obligations are always questionable, we are a shareholder in the EU, when you give up your shares it is exceedingly unusual for the obligations to not also be wiped out.


Although maybe the EU would argue its more like the principle with With Profits Funds--- in difficult times a Market Value Adjustment is made if you withdraw, to ensure those left behind are not financially disadvantaged by your doing so .

Re: Brexit payment [Re: Excoriator] #1051285
11th Jan 2018 6:57pm
11th Jan 2018 6:57pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
Originally Posted by Excoriator
The UK agreed to the conditions now being imposed by the EU.

That is seldom mentioned by the EU-bashers.


You find it, it isn't mentioned in Article 50 or anywhere else. The EU are making imaginary conditions up as they go.

None of the EU conditions apply to the UK when we leave.

In fact Article 50 states "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements". So the exit rules are set by the leaver as part of its own constitution, not the EU.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit payment [Re: Excoriator] #1051287
11th Jan 2018 6:59pm
11th Jan 2018 6:59pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,601
Birkenhead
Originally Posted by Excoriator
They are not 'linked' in the sense that one can be traded off at the expense of another DD. They are linked only by being one of the four freedoms - free movement of trade, capital, work and people.


The EU state that these are implicitly linked whenever we tried to negotiate them separately.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Giants to visit New Brighton Lighthouse
by Norton. 22nd Jun 2018 1:13pm
Another Parking Ticket
by fish5133. 18th Jun 2018 1:52am
Holborn Square - Police
by diggingdeeper. 17th Jun 2018 5:09pm
Wirral's Worst Roads?
by DavidB. 15th Jun 2018 8:09pm
Finds from yesterday 13/06/18
by Detecting_wirral. 14th Jun 2018 4:19pm
For Sale & Free
4 x 2gb DDR2 800mhz dimms
by gerrymoore. 19th Jun 2018 3:32pm
brand new cabin size luggage
by stumpyduck. 18th Jun 2018 8:55am
Safety gate
by lincle. 17th Jun 2018 4:00pm
2-stroke engine from strimmer
by Snodvan. 15th Jun 2018 7:09pm
NEXT futon sofa bed
by Gibbo. 13th Jun 2018 10:08am
Member Spotlight
TheComputerLab
TheComputerLab
Wallasey
Posts: 1,263
Joined: May 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
tpstubb, cutespam, mark_d, Pauline1949, dippydave
12652 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Giants to visit New Brighton Lighthouse
by Norton. 22nd Jun 2018 1:13pm
Wirral's Worst Roads?
by DavidB. 15th Jun 2018 8:09pm
Anyone have Turnips phone number?
by ultimate. 14th Jun 2018 2:45pm
noctorum
by tayyo1. 13th Jun 2018 8:01pm
Mortgage Deals ?
by fish5133. 11th Jun 2018 7:51pm
News : New Topics
Holborn Square - Police
by diggingdeeper. 17th Jun 2018 5:09pm
Keys found - Old Market House
by MisterSmiff. 9th Jun 2018 11:13am
More Brexit Lunacy
by Excoriator. 8th Jun 2018 2:44pm
St James Library Break in
by BandyCoot. 7th Jun 2018 10:37am
Beatties of Birkenhead to close down
by daveybm. 7th Jun 2018 8:37am
New Enthusiast Forums
Another Parking Ticket
by fish5133. 18th Jun 2018 1:52am
Finds from yesterday 13/06/18
by Detecting_wirral. 14th Jun 2018 4:19pm
Red Kite
by granny. 13th Jun 2018 7:35pm
New MOT Rules
by fish5133. 6th Jun 2018 11:55pm
HELP please - wireless printer setup
by Snodvan. 30th May 2018 3:43pm
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Fri 4:43am
Sunset Fri 9:45pm
Local Time Fri 1:19pm
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1