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What universe are we in ? #1049936
15th Dec 2017 12:14am
15th Dec 2017 12:14am
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venice Offline OP

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Did anyone see the BBC4 prog tonight " What universe are we in"
Hard to take in (especially after just having my brain mashed by attempting to watch Brian Cox explain time travel) confused

--but Im fascinated by the basic idea that our universe is just another mathematical structure, and one of an infinite number of parallel universes . Not all the scientists agreed on this 'multiverse' theory , and it didnt sound like it was exactly easy to prove but I like the idea that 'in the beginning' all the particles (from where I dont know) get together randomly in every possible configuration -----so ultimately youre bound to get identically put together universes here and there.

Just because you get 'duplicated' universes after they were initially randomly 'configurated' , I wonder if that only applies to the 'natural' structure of the universe . I dont see how it could be applied to living creatures. I could if they were all duplicated there identically at the onset, but theyre not , they evolve dont they, so surely you wouldnt expect any 'identical/parallel' universe , to remain identical/parallel ?
Yey part of the time the scientists made it sound as if that was so. ie I will be the same in another universe somewhere in space/time
Sorry if thats somewhat jumbled , but it was all so hard, my head is nearly melted!
Anyone else watch and form any views?

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Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049937
15th Dec 2017 12:34am
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I take the opinion that if (and that can be a big IF at times) our universe exists, there is absolutely very little chance that another universe doesn't exist.

It the old ripped paper question. If you rip a piece of paper is that always going to produce a unique shape that has never occurred before?

The "big IF" is that our universe most certainly doesn't exist as we perceive it. We have a very small number of senses and those that we have aren't acute. Eg, we can't see magnetism, we can't see gravity, yes, we have methods to show that they exist but we firmly believe they don't exist as well, we don't believe they have any substance. We choose to call these "fields" or "forces" but that is purely because we can't see or feel them.

In our little "universe" we have an absolute rule that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light but we have proof that some things do travel faster than the speed of light. That is our total naivety that light is that important, I put it in the same category that the proof of alcohol was measured against ethanol because that was considered to be the purest spirit, it wasn't.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049938
15th Dec 2017 1:09am
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venice Offline OP

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Well judging on what I heard tonight, it would seem logical that if you ripped an infinite number of sheets, then sooner or later the ripped shapes would match ?

I agree we show only a small number of senses, but I believe we all have far more , most of us just havent developed our potential yet.

What you said about some things travelling faster than the speed of light is more or less what the scientists were saying was one of the main problems in proving the multiverse theory.

If you reckon there are more parallel universes, do you buy into the 'indenticalness' part?


Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049939
15th Dec 2017 3:18am
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They haven't even got the theory of evolution right yet. Only the other day is was disclosed by a scientist that we were never evolved from the apes, and we have always been an upright species not half bent or on all fours.

Whatever their next programme of interest is to them, it will never stop because it is impossible to discover what or how it all started. The very first atom, grain of dust to whatever was the beginning of all things, had to come from somewhere, but where ? I find that simple fact far more staggering.

I also believe we are nearer the end of our development rather than the beginning with regard to natural instincts. Our sixth sense has virtually gone, but with reference to DD, his remark about not being able to see magnetism or gravity for example, to my mind is key.

We cannot see the wind, we cannot touch the roar of the sea, we cannot smell the sun, we cannot hold the air , but our brain knows about them and retains that information. We cannot hold our memory, we cannot touch sadness, or laughter , we can see into the future, and remember the past. EVERYTHING we have lived through, thought about, done, heard etc. is retained in our memory, and where does that memory go to ? We can't see it, hold it, but it's there, a data record of our life . That is the part that will never be erased. The brain will die but the memory won't.......think about it !

We don't know very much in reality, and an excursion into the depths of what we call space, is of no consequence.If they found a form of living creature in another galaxy, they would shit themselves and in the process of scientists trying to make communications, planet earth will be falling apart at the seams to probably the extinction of all life. We are well on the way to that now. A more cruel race, could not possibly exist. They're about to go deep sea mining now and destroy some of the most precious species that have managed to survive millions of years.

There is also talk of sending nuclear waste up to the sun to get rid of it. Fire it into the sun ! They're all a load of nut jobs, who clearly continue to spend their time looking for another avenue to do more harm.

It's funny how scientist can come up with these ideas of time travel and different universes , life in another galaxy etc. and be thought of as highly intelligent. Little Joe down the road, who isn't a scientist but is pretty smart will say the same things but is classified as mentally ill because there's a 'tick box' for that sort of thing.

Last edited by granny; 15th Dec 2017 3:20am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: granny] #1049941
15th Dec 2017 4:20am
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Originally Posted by venice
If you reckon there are more parallel universes, do you buy into the 'indenticalness' part?


Can't have one without the other.

Originally Posted by granny
Whatever their next programme of interest is to them, it will never stop because it is impossible to discover what or how it all started. The very first atom, grain of dust to whatever was the beginning of all things, had to come from somewhere, but where ? I find that simple fact far more staggering.


And following on from that, the atom is only a concept, there is no such thing physically.

Originally Posted by granny
We cannot see the wind, we cannot touch the roar of the sea, we cannot smell the sun, we cannot hold the air , but our brain knows about them and retains that information.


Our brain converts what it has perceived about them into a form it can deal with then stores that information, whether that impression pertains to reality is questionable. Our brains do a lot of conversions just out of a hope it thinks it understands when invariably it doesn't.

We might be perceiving our whole universe in a negative impression. What we think has substance might have none and what we think has little or no-substance may actually be substance. Or in simpler terms, what we think of as substance could be bubbles in a soup of something else, this closes a lot of loopholes in the current theories - welcome to the ether.



In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049942
15th Dec 2017 7:44am
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As someone who is interested in such subjects and who's brain has a lot of catching up to do to 'understand' I read with great interest your views. The idea that what we believe isn't actually the truth, and that the reverse is the truth I find this interesting. So believing that something has substance when in reality it doesn't - is this due to what we have been taught and therefore the teachers are in effect brain washing us either intentionally or not? And if we believe that something has substance, and think we have the proof, is there a parallel universe where the opposite is true? Thinking of yin and yang, and that everything, by law/nature has an opposite, does this apply to absolutely everything? And is the opposite of everything a mirror image?

Black holes I don't understand...yet!


Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1049945
15th Dec 2017 9:15am
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by venice
If you reckon there are more parallel universes, do you buy into the 'indenticalness' part?



[quote DD ----Can't have one without the other.



I cant understand that DD . Surely parallel is only a loose word indicating the position/direction of something tracking alongside another . Doesnt have to mean they have to remain identical, surely ,just because they started out at the same time in the same shared way.
The multiverses can't all be in the same position out there (except those in another time) so each may be subjected to varying forces we may not even know about yet,which could change them( unless of course we blindly accept that 'space' is constant in every way, which we cant know )


Have to say I LOVE the 'are we in the soup or the bubble ' . Have thought about the concept, but never been able to express it .




Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049947
15th Dec 2017 9:37am
15th Dec 2017 9:37am

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Iam in the universe of 'Lynne' it's lovely.

As it revolves all around me... Lol.

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049948
15th Dec 2017 9:57am
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We all like to visit the universe of 'me' lolli . Was going to say 'but we cant control even that' except of course we can if we close our eyes.--- "I think, therefore I am " then adding all the frills you want laugh

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049949
15th Dec 2017 10:19am
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Interesting but beyond me all this crazy

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049977
15th Dec 2017 4:59pm
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The idea of a clockwork universe has been discredited now. Randomness seems to be built into the subatomic structure of the universe. I think this means that two identical universes existing - even given infinite universes - is impossible. The randomness would make them diverge, even if at one particular point two WERE briefly identical.

There is more than one 'infinity' by the way. Some are bigger than others, and I suspect you'd have to dig into Georg Cantors work on this to establish whether an infinite number of universes means that duplicates are implied. I did plough through this stuff once and was never quite the same after it. Good luck if you get into it though. I was glad to forget it!


Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049981
15th Dec 2017 5:38pm
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That's the point, to be infinite it must have everything.

Cantor was looking at set theory and numbers, his basic premise (although probably not stated as such) is that if something is infinitely long but doesn't include everything (eg the set of even numbers) then that shows there is more than one infinite set of numbers and therefore more than one infinity.

Following on from that is you look at the infinitely long set of numbers that divide by ten this must be nine times smaller than the set of numbers that don't divide by ten but both are infinite sets.

All that is fine for sets and numbers but you don't have to branch far away in mathematics to find asymptotes where infinity, zero and minus infinity are all one and the same value as indeed is every other number and that is more realistic of what general infinity is.

Basically there are different mathematical models of infinity that can be used for different purposes but these are only tools and models, you have to branch into pure philosophy to see what general infinity is and there it is everything with nothing missing.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049995
15th Dec 2017 11:20pm
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I can't understand all that, DD. So maybe you can explain 'gravity'.

Gravity is what keeps the planets and stars in orbit, but where is the gravity from ? There must be more than earth with gravity, but when the astronauts leave our atmosphere, there doesn't appear to be any gravitational pull. So, what's that all about ?

If there's another universe there must be gravity elsewhere besides this universe. Maybe everything will crash onto each other one day ?

Last edited by granny; 15th Dec 2017 11:22pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049998
16th Dec 2017 2:08am
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Two universes can't crash into each other, if they could they must both be part of the same universe.

Another universe may not have gravity.

There is always gravity in our universe never mind where you are but as gravity is dependent on the distance between objects and the mass of both of the objects, it gets very small quite quickly with height for a small object such as an astronaut.

Don't forget the sun and the moon are the primary forces that drive our tides. Even though the sun is about 400 times further away from earth than the moon, the gravitational pull of the sun is roughly in the same order as the gravitational pull of the moon.

Astronauts in the space station are relatively weightless mostly because they are in orbit, the gravitational force is cancelled out by the centripetal force from their fast orbital rotation. If they stopped rotating round earth they would be both be drawn towards earth very fast. The gravitational pull at the height of the space station is about 90% of that at ground level.

On a slowish trip to the moon gravity must be very interesting, you will be dragged around quite a bit by the moon as it orbits earth and you.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1050003
16th Dec 2017 8:40am
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Looking at the sun and the moon, they would appear to be much the same size, even though they are not, and if they were any different in the size that they are , we wouldn't have total solar or lunar eclipses .

As someone else stated on wiki, a long time ago :

"The moon is the perfect size and distance from the earth to exert gravitational pull that controls the tides. The earth is the perfect distance from the sun to support water and therefore life. Nearer the sun it would be too hot, further away it would be too cold."

Add to that night and day ,so perfect is the timing of the rotation of these planets we can consistently calculate sunrise and sunset in every corner of this world without fault.

Mathematics it is, but for all this accidental perfection on such an incredible scale, we as humans are not the greatest accident, but we as a creation in the grand scheme of things, are pretty wonderful !

I can believe that there are other universes ad infinitum, but do we really need to know ? Our lifespan is very short in comparison to the vastness of space.

We have a galaxy, we have all the planets asteroids, a moon and a sun. I don't believe there could be more than one sun, which sustains life as we know it, if we believe in the 'accident' theory. Such accidents can't repeat perfection.

[Linked Image]


Last edited by granny; 16th Dec 2017 8:42am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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