WikiWirral values you and your opinion.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,000,430
Topics73,979
Members12,508
Forums65
Posts in last 24hrs29
Most Online7,831
Apr 8th, 2013
Who's Online Now
73 registered members (alan128, 14 invisible), 1,355 guests, and176 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
334 The voice
209 smart tv
New General Forums
Happy Birthday
by RUDEBOX. 18th Jan 2018 12:13am
Evacuate ! Evacuate !
by granny. 16th Jan 2018 6:53pm
Getting old sucks
by snowhite. 16th Jan 2018 5:00pm
Warning scam
by casper. 15th Jan 2018 11:52am
New Wirral History
Ellesmere Port town centre redevelopment?
by yoller. 5th Jan 2018 5:12pm
Lunts Cake Factory on Hoylake Rd.
by jeffappleyard. 22nd Dec 2017 8:30pm
Brook St Birkenhead
by chris7777. 27th Jun 2014 11:46am
Wirral History. 1860 - 1960...
by johnsonjl. 12th Aug 2012 10:21pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
War memorial, Flaybrick Cemetery, today
clipper yachts arriving for round the world race
Topic Replies
Major Electrical Disaster - Birkenhead
by Excoriator. 18th Jan 2018 10:42pm
Ilchester Square - The Dock Cottages
by diggingdeeper. 18th Jan 2018 9:36pm
587 Ship Inn, Breck Road Wallasey
by RUDEBOX. 18th Jan 2018 7:29pm
Local History Fair 2018
by RUDEBOX. 18th Jan 2018 7:20pm
Help with Humax
by Mark. 18th Jan 2018 12:42pm
New Forums Software
by diggingdeeper. 18th Jan 2018 12:57am
smart tv
by diggingdeeper. 17th Jan 2018 10:18pm
No government help for New Ferry.
by pacef8. 17th Jan 2018 1:45pm
Beatles fan re-paints Strawberry Fields gates
by diggingdeeper. 16th Jan 2018 11:12pm
January
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Local History Fair 2018
by RUDEBOX. 18th Jan 2018 7:20pm
British Ironworks Centre Oswestry
by cools. 15th Jan 2018 3:31pm
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rating 5
Page 1 of 2 1 2
What universe are we in ? #1049936
15th Dec 2017 12:14am
15th Dec 2017 12:14am
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Master
venice  Offline OP

Forum Master
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
Did anyone see the BBC4 prog tonight " What universe are we in"
Hard to take in (especially after just having my brain mashed by attempting to watch Brian Cox explain time travel) confused

--but Im fascinated by the basic idea that our universe is just another mathematical structure, and one of an infinite number of parallel universes . Not all the scientists agreed on this 'multiverse' theory , and it didnt sound like it was exactly easy to prove but I like the idea that 'in the beginning' all the particles (from where I dont know) get together randomly in every possible configuration -----so ultimately youre bound to get identically put together universes here and there.

Just because you get 'duplicated' universes after they were initially randomly 'configurated' , I wonder if that only applies to the 'natural' structure of the universe . I dont see how it could be applied to living creatures. I could if they were all duplicated there identically at the onset, but theyre not , they evolve dont they, so surely you wouldnt expect any 'identical/parallel' universe , to remain identical/parallel ?
Yey part of the time the scientists made it sound as if that was so. ie I will be the same in another universe somewhere in space/time
Sorry if thats somewhat jumbled , but it was all so hard, my head is nearly melted!
Anyone else watch and form any views?

Google Ads
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049937
15th Dec 2017 12:34am
15th Dec 2017 12:34am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
I take the opinion that if (and that can be a big IF at times) our universe exists, there is absolutely very little chance that another universe doesn't exist.

It the old ripped paper question. If you rip a piece of paper is that always going to produce a unique shape that has never occurred before?

The "big IF" is that our universe most certainly doesn't exist as we perceive it. We have a very small number of senses and those that we have aren't acute. Eg, we can't see magnetism, we can't see gravity, yes, we have methods to show that they exist but we firmly believe they don't exist as well, we don't believe they have any substance. We choose to call these "fields" or "forces" but that is purely because we can't see or feel them.

In our little "universe" we have an absolute rule that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light but we have proof that some things do travel faster than the speed of light. That is our total naivety that light is that important, I put it in the same category that the proof of alcohol was measured against ethanol because that was considered to be the purest spirit, it wasn't.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049938
15th Dec 2017 1:09am
15th Dec 2017 1:09am
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Master
venice  Offline OP

Forum Master
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
Well judging on what I heard tonight, it would seem logical that if you ripped an infinite number of sheets, then sooner or later the ripped shapes would match ?

I agree we show only a small number of senses, but I believe we all have far more , most of us just havent developed our potential yet.

What you said about some things travelling faster than the speed of light is more or less what the scientists were saying was one of the main problems in proving the multiverse theory.

If you reckon there are more parallel universes, do you buy into the 'indenticalness' part?

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049939
15th Dec 2017 3:18am
15th Dec 2017 3:18am
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,234
Wirral
granny Offline

Wiki Master
granny  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,234
Wirral
They haven't even got the theory of evolution right yet. Only the other day is was disclosed by a scientist that we were never evolved from the apes, and we have always been an upright species not half bent or on all fours.

Whatever their next programme of interest is to them, it will never stop because it is impossible to discover what or how it all started. The very first atom, grain of dust to whatever was the beginning of all things, had to come from somewhere, but where ? I find that simple fact far more staggering.

I also believe we are nearer the end of our development rather than the beginning with regard to natural instincts. Our sixth sense has virtually gone, but with reference to DD, his remark about not being able to see magnetism or gravity for example, to my mind is key.

We cannot see the wind, we cannot touch the roar of the sea, we cannot smell the sun, we cannot hold the air , but our brain knows about them and retains that information. We cannot hold our memory, we cannot touch sadness, or laughter , we can see into the future, and remember the past. EVERYTHING we have lived through, thought about, done, heard etc. is retained in our memory, and where does that memory go to ? We can't see it, hold it, but it's there, a data record of our life . That is the part that will never be erased. The brain will die but the memory won't.......think about it !

We don't know very much in reality, and an excursion into the depths of what we call space, is of no consequence.If they found a form of living creature in another galaxy, they would shit themselves and in the process of scientists trying to make communications, planet earth will be falling apart at the seams to probably the extinction of all life. We are well on the way to that now. A more cruel race, could not possibly exist. They're about to go deep sea mining now and destroy some of the most precious species that have managed to survive millions of years.

There is also talk of sending nuclear waste up to the sun to get rid of it. Fire it into the sun ! They're all a load of nut jobs, who clearly continue to spend their time looking for another avenue to do more harm.

It's funny how scientist can come up with these ideas of time travel and different universes , life in another galaxy etc. and be thought of as highly intelligent. Little Joe down the road, who isn't a scientist but is pretty smart will say the same things but is classified as mentally ill because there's a 'tick box' for that sort of thing.

Last edited by granny; 15th Dec 2017 3:20am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: granny] #1049941
15th Dec 2017 4:20am
15th Dec 2017 4:20am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: venice
If you reckon there are more parallel universes, do you buy into the 'indenticalness' part?


Can't have one without the other.

Originally Posted By: granny
Whatever their next programme of interest is to them, it will never stop because it is impossible to discover what or how it all started. The very first atom, grain of dust to whatever was the beginning of all things, had to come from somewhere, but where ? I find that simple fact far more staggering.


And following on from that, the atom is only a concept, there is no such thing physically.

Originally Posted By: granny
We cannot see the wind, we cannot touch the roar of the sea, we cannot smell the sun, we cannot hold the air , but our brain knows about them and retains that information.


Our brain converts what it has perceived about them into a form it can deal with then stores that information, whether that impression pertains to reality is questionable. Our brains do a lot of conversions just out of a hope it thinks it understands when invariably it doesn't.

We might be perceiving our whole universe in a negative impression. What we think has substance might have none and what we think has little or no-substance may actually be substance. Or in simpler terms, what we think of as substance could be bubbles in a soup of something else, this closes a lot of loopholes in the current theories - welcome to the ether.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049942
15th Dec 2017 7:44am
15th Dec 2017 7:44am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 87
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline
Member
geprgie260  Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 87
wirral
As someone who is interested in such subjects and who's brain has a lot of catching up to do to 'understand' I read with great interest your views. The idea that what we believe isn't actually the truth, and that the reverse is the truth I find this interesting. So believing that something has substance when in reality it doesn't - is this due to what we have been taught and therefore the teachers are in effect brain washing us either intentionally or not? And if we believe that something has substance, and think we have the proof, is there a parallel universe where the opposite is true? Thinking of yin and yang, and that everything, by law/nature has an opposite, does this apply to absolutely everything? And is the opposite of everything a mirror image?

Black holes I don't understand...yet!

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1049945
15th Dec 2017 9:15am
15th Dec 2017 9:15am
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Master
venice  Offline OP

Forum Master
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper
Originally Posted By: venice
If you reckon there are more parallel universes, do you buy into the 'indenticalness' part?



[quote DD ----Can't have one without the other.



I cant understand that DD . Surely parallel is only a loose word indicating the position/direction of something tracking alongside another . Doesnt have to mean they have to remain identical, surely ,just because they started out at the same time in the same shared way.
The multiverses can't all be in the same position out there (except those in another time) so each may be subjected to varying forces we may not even know about yet,which could change them( unless of course we blindly accept that 'space' is constant in every way, which we cant know )


Have to say I LOVE the 'are we in the soup or the bubble ' . Have thought about the concept, but never been able to express it .




Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049947
15th Dec 2017 9:37am
15th Dec 2017 9:37am

L
lollipop
Unregistered
lollipop
Unregistered
L


Iam in the universe of 'Lynne' it's lovely.

As it revolves all around me... Lol.

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049948
15th Dec 2017 9:57am
15th Dec 2017 9:57am
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
V
venice Offline OP

Forum Master
venice  Offline OP

Forum Master
V
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,141
Wirral
We all like to visit the universe of 'me' lolli . Was going to say 'but we cant control even that' except of course we can if we close our eyes.--- "I think, therefore I am " then adding all the frills you want laugh

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049949
15th Dec 2017 10:19am
15th Dec 2017 10:19am
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,185
Wirral
C
cools Offline
Forum Addict
cools  Offline
Forum Addict
C
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,185
Wirral
Interesting but beyond me all this crazy

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049977
15th Dec 2017 4:59pm
15th Dec 2017 4:59pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,322
wirral
E
Excoriator Online content
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Online Content
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,322
wirral
The idea of a clockwork universe has been discredited now. Randomness seems to be built into the subatomic structure of the universe. I think this means that two identical universes existing - even given infinite universes - is impossible. The randomness would make them diverge, even if at one particular point two WERE briefly identical.

There is more than one 'infinity' by the way. Some are bigger than others, and I suspect you'd have to dig into Georg Cantors work on this to establish whether an infinite number of universes means that duplicates are implied. I did plough through this stuff once and was never quite the same after it. Good luck if you get into it though. I was glad to forget it!

Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049981
15th Dec 2017 5:38pm
15th Dec 2017 5:38pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
That's the point, to be infinite it must have everything.

Cantor was looking at set theory and numbers, his basic premise (although probably not stated as such) is that if something is infinitely long but doesn't include everything (eg the set of even numbers) then that shows there is more than one infinite set of numbers and therefore more than one infinity.

Following on from that is you look at the infinitely long set of numbers that divide by ten this must be nine times smaller than the set of numbers that don't divide by ten but both are infinite sets.

All that is fine for sets and numbers but you don't have to branch far away in mathematics to find asymptotes where infinity, zero and minus infinity are all one and the same value as indeed is every other number and that is more realistic of what general infinity is.

Basically there are different mathematical models of infinity that can be used for different purposes but these are only tools and models, you have to branch into pure philosophy to see what general infinity is and there it is everything with nothing missing.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049995
15th Dec 2017 11:20pm
15th Dec 2017 11:20pm
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,234
Wirral
granny Offline

Wiki Master
granny  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,234
Wirral
I can't understand all that, DD. So maybe you can explain 'gravity'.

Gravity is what keeps the planets and stars in orbit, but where is the gravity from ? There must be more than earth with gravity, but when the astronauts leave our atmosphere, there doesn't appear to be any gravitational pull. So, what's that all about ?

If there's another universe there must be gravity elsewhere besides this universe. Maybe everything will crash onto each other one day ?

Last edited by granny; 15th Dec 2017 11:22pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: venice] #1049998
16th Dec 2017 2:08am
16th Dec 2017 2:08am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,097
Birkenhead
Two universes can't crash into each other, if they could they must both be part of the same universe.

Another universe may not have gravity.

There is always gravity in our universe never mind where you are but as gravity is dependent on the distance between objects and the mass of both of the objects, it gets very small quite quickly with height for a small object such as an astronaut.

Don't forget the sun and the moon are the primary forces that drive our tides. Even though the sun is about 400 times further away from earth than the moon, the gravitational pull of the sun is roughly in the same order as the gravitational pull of the moon.

Astronauts in the space station are relatively weightless mostly because they are in orbit, the gravitational force is cancelled out by the centripetal force from their fast orbital rotation. If they stopped rotating round earth they would be both be drawn towards earth very fast. The gravitational pull at the height of the space station is about 90% of that at ground level.

On a slowish trip to the moon gravity must be very interesting, you will be dragged around quite a bit by the moon as it orbits earth and you.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: What universe are we in ? [Re: diggingdeeper] #1050003
16th Dec 2017 8:40am
16th Dec 2017 8:40am
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,234
Wirral
granny Offline

Wiki Master
granny  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,234
Wirral
Looking at the sun and the moon, they would appear to be much the same size, even though they are not, and if they were any different in the size that they are , we wouldn't have total solar or lunar eclipses .

As someone else stated on wiki, a long time ago :

"The moon is the perfect size and distance from the earth to exert gravitational pull that controls the tides. The earth is the perfect distance from the sun to support water and therefore life. Nearer the sun it would be too hot, further away it would be too cold."

Add to that night and day ,so perfect is the timing of the rotation of these planets we can consistently calculate sunrise and sunset in every corner of this world without fault.

Mathematics it is, but for all this accidental perfection on such an incredible scale, we as humans are not the greatest accident, but we as a creation in the grand scheme of things, are pretty wonderful !

I can believe that there are other universes ad infinitum, but do we really need to know ? Our lifespan is very short in comparison to the vastness of space.

We have a galaxy, we have all the planets asteroids, a moon and a sun. I don't believe there could be more than one sun, which sustains life as we know it, if we believe in the 'accident' theory. Such accidents can't repeat perfection.




Last edited by granny; 16th Dec 2017 8:42am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Local History Fair 2018
by RUDEBOX. 18th Jan 2018 7:20pm
Major Electrical Disaster - Birkenhead
by diggingdeeper. 18th Jan 2018 1:12pm
Help with Humax
by muzzy2. 18th Jan 2018 10:02am
smart tv
by eggandchips. 17th Jan 2018 2:43pm
Pets Meds Online
by venice. 16th Jan 2018 11:54am
For Sale & Free
Leather Double Bed and Mattress
by turnip. 16th Jan 2018 10:55pm
Technics Separates New Class A - 70
by DavidB. 16th Jan 2018 6:56pm
Gents Bicycle
by Snodvan. 12th Jan 2018 8:57pm
Ikea Two Seat KNIHULT Sofa - 20
by DavidB. 11th Jan 2018 12:26pm
Sodastream 201
by Snodvan. 10th Jan 2018 11:35am
Member Spotlight
snowshoes
snowshoes
ottawa canada ( formerly new brighton )
Posts: 865
Joined: August 2010
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Tikitour2018, Stevo125, Justin, ap493, testinguser
12508 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Local History Fair 2018
by RUDEBOX. 18th Jan 2018 7:20pm
British Ironworks Centre Oswestry
by fish5133. 14th Jan 2018 11:53pm
Tranmere Rovers carbooty
by assassin. 13th Jan 2018 3:21pm
Job Loss and benefits
by Peter0787. 12th Jan 2018 6:45pm
Off roading wirral.
by vw_kyle. 10th Jan 2018 8:57pm
News : New Topics
Major Electrical Disaster - Birkenhead
by diggingdeeper. 18th Jan 2018 1:12pm
RIP Bella Emberg
by Norton. 13th Jan 2018 4:40pm
4 bridges completion delay
by pacef8. 11th Jan 2018 7:00pm
Mount pleasant road, wallasey
by Ardneil. 11th Jan 2018 10:45am
Brexit payment
by venice. 10th Jan 2018 2:56pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Help with Humax
by muzzy2. 18th Jan 2018 10:02am
smart tv
by eggandchips. 17th Jan 2018 2:43pm
Pets Meds Online
by venice. 16th Jan 2018 11:54am
AdultSwine malware
by assassin. 15th Jan 2018 9:05pm
RIP Dolores O'Riordan (Cranberries)
by diggingdeeper. 15th Jan 2018 6:22pm
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Thu 8:16am
Sunset Thu 4:29pm
Local Time Thu 11:56pm
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1