Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Too late sorry, Granny. I've already written to her, urging her to her to do all in her power to keep us in the EU. Wouldn't want to confuse her.
There seems to be a rising movement to abandon brexit. The last poll I saw had 52% remain to 48% leave. The British people have spoken, but what they've said is "Er... well I'm not really sure..." Fortunately, we seem to have a government which is incapable of managing it anyway. Increasingly, I wonder whether our PM - a one-time remainer - deliberately appointed a palpable idiot (Davis) to the job confident in his ability to cock it up completely! This is a well-known strategy. I think it's mentioned in Sun Tzu's "Art of War"
Whatever the reason, the leave negotiations seem to be going very badly indeed.
Well we all known about 'polls', hardly the time and motion worth speaking about.
If Brexit should be overturned, then I for one will never vote again, the same would probably apply to many. Womens' vote was hard come by, and to take that and any other vote as insignificance to democracy,just shows the way this country is going.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I don't know why the hell it is taking us so long. The referendum was over a year ago. We should've given them 30 days notice and left. All this messing about is just costing us more.
I don't know why the hell it is taking us so long. The referendum was over a year ago. We should've given them 30 days notice and left. All this messing about is just costing us more.
A sudden leave is impossible for two reasons, firstly the default leave notice is 2 years unless both parties agree otherwise and secondly everything would come to a halt, no air road or rail traffic between us and Europe (shipping may have world agreements?), no goods or people crossing borders, no financial transactions between us and numerous other things. Everything that passes between borders is done by agreement, without agreement nothing passes.
The amount of detail (most of which is necessary) is unbelievable, additionally trade agreements have always had non-trade political clauses in them, this can be anything from the minimum and maximum age of chickens to the use of chemicals or subsidies.
Take something like passports, things like the age children travel under their parents passport, how old a passport photograph is allowed to be, what information the passport contains, the mechanism and bodies to contact to check a passport, who ends up with the person if the passport is false, who pays for transporting a person found with a false passport the format of electronic transfer of information relating to passports etc etc. You have a one-shot chance to the final agreement, get it wrong and it won't function the way you thought it should.
The main problem at the moment is that the UK is in a dominant position and the EU are trying to use their power to make it a more level playing field. The UK is in a position to swap some of that dominance for good deal (for the UK) but the EU wants to totally obliterate that dominance in exchange for nothing (of course - wouldn't you?). Its a political war, its not going to be easy, because of our dominance we will have to give some of it away but we obviously don't believe in giving freebies.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
It would be quite easy to abandon the whole leave procedure. All you have to do is apologise to the EU, and repeal the repeal bill and business goes on as usual.
It's a lot easier than leaving.
The point is that the 27 have defined two clear stages in the brexit procedure. First, the divorce settlement - things like what to do about the Border with Eire, brits in the EU and EU citizens in the UK and any money owed etc. and then and only then will any trade agreements be made. They have repeated this countless times, but our government seems not to understand it, keeping on proposing transition periods, not proposing any solution to the Border problem, and making vague partial statements about citizenship. In other words, they are not even trying to follow the rules and are too stupid to realise that they have no choice in the matter.
At the moment, Brexit is far from their minds. They are all far too busy plotting who will take over from Theresa!
What worries me is that a government as bloody stupid as this one is hardly likely to be able to negotiate any beneficial (to us) agreement with ANY country.
What I would like to see is the Labour party coming out and saying "Enough! We will oppose any brexit legislation and when reelected will abandon the whole leave procedure!"
Better that than no deal and we're out with nothing!
If Brexit should be overturned, then I for one will never vote again...
Careful Granny. Some might see that as an additional incentive to overturn it.
You are so funny, Ex.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The point is that the 27 have defined two clear stages in the brexit procedure. First, the divorce settlement - things like what to do about the Border with Eire, brits in the EU and EU citizens in the UK and any money owed etc. and then and only then will any trade agreements be made. They have repeated this countless times, but our government seems not to understand it.
Precisely, the EU is intentionally blocking negotiations, how can you negotiate when the matter you negotiate about isn't allowed on the table during the negotiations.
Its like asking someone to play poker blindfold.
Negotiation is about concessions, the EU are offering no concessions, the UK aren't allowed to use their concessions, how can it be possible to negotiate.
There is nothing in EU rules that says they are allowed to make this edict, they are making it up as they go along.
This is nothing new in the EU's attitude, the whole council is designed around bypassing democracy and that is the reason we are better out.
When I say the EU I mean the United States of Germany of course, they are unquestionably the dominant power in something that is supposed to be an equal community.
The stupidest thing we ever did was give away our veto, what is more hilarious was we got nothing in exchange. Not only that, the agreed democratic procedure to see if the veto powers should be given away were side-stepped when the EU leaders realised the vote wasn't going to go their way.
Either you believe in democracy or you believe in the EU, the two are mutually exclusive.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
However the people have spoken and a decision has been made. I have made peace with that. If Brexit was reversed then 52% of the country that voted for it would be saying "hang on a minute"
I'm actually sick of the rhetoric surrounding it now, just get the wheels in motion now.
Precisely, the EU is intentionally blocking negotiations...
Not at all. They want to ensure that things like the status of their and our people in each other's countries is settled, and proposals for the border with Eire sorted out, and agreement reached about payment for anything we owe first. Trade agreements are nothing to do with any of this.
I see nothing obstructive about separating these issues. None of them is related to trading agreements. It is Davis' inability (or refusal) to separate the two that is holding things up.
It is worth remembering that in two years, the EU will lose interest in the UK completely, and will lose very little if we leave with nothing settled. Unfortunately, we will come off very badly if that happens.
What few people realise when talking about the EU is they should really be calling it the EP, the European project. If you read the 5 Presidents report (these are the 5 presidents of the 5 big EU institutions) which was published in 2016, or listen to the latest speech of Juncker, you will find out that the intention of the EU is to have more and more control. Juncker stated in his speech for example that 'every' country in the EU would eventually have to join the Euro. He also said that an EU Army should be formed. remainers say we are launching ourselves into the unknown when we Brexit, presumably the same 'unknown; that countries like Canada and Australia live with every day. What remainers cant tell me, and ive asked quite a few of them, is what will the EU be like in 10 years?.
Precisely, the EU is intentionally blocking negotiations...
Not at all. They want to ensure that things like the status of their and our people in each other's countries is settled, and proposals for the border with Eire sorted out, and agreement reached about payment for anything we owe first. Trade agreements are nothing to do with any of this.
Trade is explicitly linked to the three freedoms by the EU.
You will notice the EU are not making any proposals (other than demanding a random amount of money in exchange for nothing), just rejecting ours.
The amount we pay is explicitly linked to the final agreement, the EU are basically saying that if and when we agree to pay £90bn then we will start talking about the final agreement.
The EU know the only solution is a tariff free agreement between the EU and the UK, this actually benefits them more than us yet they expect us to pay compensation as well?
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The EU is not compelled to make ANY sort of a trade deal with us. It is a matter for the two sides after the departure of the UK
The EU is not demanding 'random' sums from us. It is simply asking for promised or committed money. This has nothing to do with trade deals either.
You seem to have missed the point about 'this will hurt them more than us' too. Even if it were true - which I doubt - the effect on individual countries is one twenty-seventh of the effect it is on us. In other words, even if it costs them more, they can afford it much more easily because they are a great deal richer than us.
This is the reality of the situation. I find it incredible that our piss-poor government cannot understand this and continues to lecture, abuse, and insult the EU, and proposing 'transition periods' - again which can only happen with the agreement of the EU - as if they will simply fall into line.
I watch with incredulity as this slow motion car crash proceeds.
The EU is not demanding 'random' sums from us. It is simply asking for promised or committed money. This has nothing to do with trade deals either.
You seem to have missed the point about 'this will hurt them more than us' too. Even if it were true - which I doubt - the effect on individual countries is one twenty-seventh of the effect it is on us. In other words, even if it costs them more, they can afford it much more easily because they are a great deal richer than us.
This is the reality of the situation. I find it incredible that our piss-poor government cannot understand this and continues to lecture, abuse, and insult the EU, and proposing 'transition periods' - again which can only happen with the agreement of the EU - as if they will simply fall into line.
I watch with incredulity as this slow motion car crash proceeds.
I'm don't doubt for one second that there will be a car crash, even the Tory party are going to struggle to find words to fool the people that they have got a good deal for the country when in fact, as usual, it will be good for the rich and not for the rest.
The EU has not provided a list of promised payments that totals anywhere near £90bn, they have told the UK to justify the figure. It was random figure.
If it hurts the EU at all, why would they do it when they don't have to? A tariff free agreement would keep the status quo, but that's not what they want, they want to destroy the UK.
We should never have got into this mess, joining the common market had some merit (against my better judgement), joining political forces and becoming subservient to it wasn't. The EU needs to be dismantled, how many hundreds of years of punishment have the people of Greece got left, how many more countries will they acquire in their portfolio of destruction?
We are the 5th largest economy and have food banks, lack of access to medical treatment, closing down of public services etc. The EU has done nothing for the people of the UK apart from take money off us, but the rich are still getting richer.
One fundamental function of any Government is the distribution of wealth - this has gone into reverse.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
If it hurts the EU at all, why would they do it when they don't have to? A tariff free agreement would keep the status quo, but that's not what they want, they want to destroy the UK.
They cannot stop the UK leaving the EU, but have made no effort to prevent us. It hurts them - a bit - but it hurts us a lot more.
As to wanting a tariff-free agreement, we might be able to have one but only if we accept the free movement of people.
You seem to share the tory's delusion that one can enjoy all the benefits of being a member of the club whilst ignoring the rules you don't like simply by being a non-member. This is a barmy belief. It will - quite understandably - not be permitted by the 27. In is in and out is out.
I think, also, that the fact that the EU insists on the trade discussions being second to (and dependent on) a divorce agreement being reached is a very clear indication that trade is a lot less important to them than it is to us. Our politicians' constant attempts to blur this issue and conduct them as part of the same process is clear that trade with the EU is VERY important to the UK.
If it hurts the EU at all, why would they do it when they don't have to? A tariff free agreement would keep the status quo, but that's not what they want, they want to destroy the UK.
They cannot stop the UK leaving the EU, but have made no effort to prevent us.
Would that be why Guy Verhofstadt was over here last week, preaching to the LSE on how bad Brexit will be and how the EU don't care ? Not much point in him coming really. OR, was he coming with the intentions of whipping up support for another referendum ? I suggest that many powerful and influential people are doing the same in various places throughout the country atm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
A tariff free agreement would keep the status quo, but that's not what they want, they want to destroy the UK.
It appears the Tories are already destroying the UK, things must be dire when its down to poaching policies off the Labour party, Boris holding a fringe meeting with his right wing cronies who are advocating destroying workers rights, health and safety legislation, well to cut a long list short anything that benefits the ordinary working person, and then calls for the minimum wage to be raised!!! unbelievable.
As to wanting a tariff-free agreement, we might be able to have one but only if we accept the free movement of people.
The EU are saying that is mandatory for all free trade agreements but its not, they have numerous free trade agreements with other non-EU non-EEA countries and they have many more which are in the process of being put in place.
There is a lot of difference between a no-tariff agreement and a free-trade agreement. A free trade agreement would be nice but a no-tariff rule benefits both sides mainly in reduced administration costs.
With no EU trade agreements in place, WTO rules with the EU would not significantly hurt the UK (because we are a net importer from the EU), in fact it could even benefit us. Additionally we get taxed more than one way by the EU, as well as our membership fee, we are forced to pay higher prices for non-EU goods.
I've never understood the long term subsidising under the Common Agricultural Policy, this goes against the principals of the EU and is against WTO rules. I can understand it being put in place in 1962 but it should have been a short term solution, the continuance defies all logic. In the EU, France greatly benefits from it, in the UK the rich benefit most from it. Its a complete distortion of the market place, something that needs to go.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The EU has made it very clear that free trade will not be extended to us if we do not accept free movement of people.
This is a fundamental principle of the union and something they are unlikely to shift on, and we have no way to bring pressure to bear on them either.
As to agriculture, I think that could prove a very contentious issue, Farmers and landowners do very well out of the EU and this largesse will come to a grinding halt when we leave. Will the government step in and maintain the handouts? I suspect - given the influence the NFU seem to have over the tories - they will, and you and I will pay for it.
It adds up to something in excess of £3 billion a year, that's £50 a year from everyone in the UK, but farmers - on average - receive about £30,000 a year in subsidies and about £3,000 a year on agriculture. Either they will find the stuff they grow has to shoot up in price (meaning the Tescos and Sainsburys will buy abroad), you and I continue to cough up, or they go out of business in droves.
When you are faced with having to pay £5 for a turnip, you may wonder whether brexit was worth it after all.
The EU has made it very clear that free trade will not be extended to us if we do not accept free movement of people.
This is a fundamental principle of the union and something they are unlikely to shift on, and we have no way to bring pressure to bear on them either.
How can this be a fundamental principal when not only do they have agreements in place contrary to this BUT ALSO they are still negotiating more with numerous other countries.
They want to stall the process to stop Brexit happening, they have no intentions of complying or co-operating with democracy. This is exactly what has happened in the past, when democracy goes against the hierarchy of the EU, they bypass democracy by any means possible.
The distribution of wealth needs to be looked at by every major economy, the EU and the UK have achieved nothing to address this issue. Germany has achieved very little and the USA has had a huge division for years. Needless to say China and Russia just keep it as the norm. Japan started to address it then bottled out.
As you pointed out, we are paying for our turnips in tax at the moment, without the CAP France would probably leave the EU, its purely a bribe. I hate turnips (sorry @Turnip, not you). However with more of the newer countries having significant amounts of agriculture they have got a lot of decisions to make as France's share of the CAP will reduce substantially.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
So how on earth do you propose persuading them that we can have free trade whilst excluding them from coming here?
A trade agreement in one area is very different from free trade, and I have no doubt there are numerous such agreements with other countries. We may even - in time - have many ourselves, but that is still not free trade.
At work I did a lot of travelling to various countries. If I needed to take equipment with me to non-EU countries, it was a real pain. I had to have a carnet to get it in and out, and importing or exporting kit or materials required a whole department to manage the paperwork! Nightmare. Going to an EU country was a piece of cake. It was no more difficult than driving to Peterborough. THAT is what free trade means.
I don't believe there is any intention of punishing the UK. We are doing that to ourselves! But rules are rules and the EU - with us or without us - will stick to them. They are there for the benefit and protection of the EU and there is no reason to suppose the UK is a special case once it has left.
We have an inept government that fails to understand that we cannot leave the club and enjoy the benefits of membership, and I suspect that Farage being a right pain in the arse to the EU will not have won us any favours either.
It looks to me that we a heading towards the worse possible 'deal' which will be disastrous for us all unless someone manages to stop the whole process.
So how on earth do you propose persuading them that we can have free trade whilst excluding them from coming here?
It is not going to happen, while the UK is attempting to negotiate, this is not being reciprocated.
The EU have made no proposals but insist on the UK coming up with proposals. This is not negotiating.
Even the £90bn is not a proposal, it is a statement, it doesn't say anything about what we are getting in return for £90bn, ie what we are paying for and what else we might be charged for afterwards.
The EU have no intention whatsoever in making an agreement, they think we will bottle out a hard brexit.
The fact that they are worried that a fair agreement would encourage other countries to leave says it all. They are admitting that the EU is a failed exercise and other countries want to leave because of what the EU has become.
The EU is acting undemocratically which I thought was a prime principal. We are still EU citizens during the negotiation period even though we intend to leave, they have a duty of care to treat us fairly.
They have even invented a rule that we are not allowed to negotiate trade with other countries, while I agree that there is some credence to us not being allowed to sign absolute trade agreements outside the EU at the moment, there is no reason whatsoever we can not be allowed to negotiate them. I also see no reason why we could not sign conditional trade agreements, the condition being when we are released to trade.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Davis has to settle the divorce arrangements first.
Trade agreements are nothing whatever to do with Brexit. It is only the UK that claims they are; understandably. It really IS important to the UK, but not so important to the EU.
As to the EU failing, the hopes of people like Farage of a domino effect with countries leaving, not only is it not happening, but the EU is going ahead, more confident than ever with new countries soon to join and economic growth rising. Brexiteers are desperately trying to comfort themselves with this invented fiction whilst the UK's growth shrinks, stirling falls, inflation rises, and our productivity languishes at the bottom of the European league thanks to shrinking investment.
I think brexiteers should stop blaming the EU for the mess we have put ourselves into by entering the leave procedure with no plan whatsoever as to how to go about it.
If you are splitting up with your partner, you sort out the divorce details first. Who gets the dog, who gets the kitchen chairs, who moves out, do you sell the house etc.
Having separated you may well come to a trade agreement where one partner does the dog walking in exchange for using the washing machine or something, but that is after the event.
I don't see that the EU is being unreasonable in setting this agenda, but right or wrong, they are in charge, and the constant attempts to bring post brexit rade agreements into the divorce proceedings by Davis and his fellow clowns are clearly getting us nowhere.
I don't know why I bother to point this out. I would be quite happy if the whole mess got so bad that the only thing to do was to stay in. Hopefully, I can rely on our piss-poor government to do just that.
The EU is primarily to do with trade hence leaving it is also primarily to do with trade.
If an employee or even a director of a company leaves the company, he doesn't get billed for all the future payments he signed as part of that company.
Basically there is nothing in EU rules where they can demand a divorce payment, we are not willing to agree to pay any significant divorce bill unless we get something in return.
You will notice that the EU hasn't once indicated that they think WTO rules is the acceptable solution, they know it is not, in fact it is probably the last thing the EU wants but pushing us towards that cliff edge can only have one consequence.
If the EU expect future payments, then we in return can expect future EU benefits, you can't argue one without the other.
The EU are offering nothing so why should we offer anything?
This is a mutual brexit under the EU's own rules (the UK didn't have a brexit rule). Why is one side in charge? The UK is leaving the EU, the EU is leaving the UK. Members of the EU did something under EU rules, brexit is 100% an EU function, the UK is part of the EU until it leaves.
Finance is trade, trade is finance, apart from charity and fines I can't think of an example of where they are not implicitly linked, so is the divorce bill a fine, charity or trade?
Originally Posted by Excoriator
If you are splitting up with your partner, you sort out the divorce details first. Who gets the dog, who gets the kitchen chairs, who moves out, do you sell the house etc.
Having separated you may well come to a trade agreement where one partner does the dog walking in exchange for using the washing machine or something, but that is after the event.
If only that was the way divorce normally worked, it rarely does. Also it is up to the courts whether the agreements are lawful and fair or not, the divorce is easy, the financial settlement is not. Unfortunately a lot of people do not do the financial settlements through the court (due to cost or lack of co-operation) which can come back and sting you badly when you come to claim your pension.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The EU are offering nothing so why should we offer anything?
They are offering nothing because brexit is 100% the UK's decision. Why on earth should they offer anything?
When you resign from a club, you are expected to pay your bar bill. The money the EU is demanding is for stuff we agreed to as members and made committments to. Your position seems to be that of a resigning member who is refusing to pay his bar bill because the bar makes a profit from the drinks it sells.
But the EU is perfectly within its rights to refuse to have any discussion about trade if it doesn't want to, for whatever reason. If the UK really wants duty free trade with the EU it might be wise to play by its rules. Instead , the UK seems to want to browbeat the EU into doing whatever it wants, and is whining when it doesn't.
It looks like a hard brexit. No trade agreements and disaster. Or perhaps we'll realise what a catastrophe this is for us and stay in.
Spot on Ex,as you say its like leaving a club and then telling the committee how to run it, we are indeed heading for a hard brexit, and that has been the goal throughout by the hard right
That lovable bungling clown Boris, hail fellow well met is in fact a very dangerous man, through all his jolly japes lies an insidious assassin intent on grasping the Conservative leadership at any cost.
It is nothing like paying your bar Bill. Paying your bar Bill for drinks you have had is fine but you wouldn't be expected to pay for future drinks you may have had if you had remained a member of the club.
We are the 5th largest economy and have food banks, lack of access to medical treatment, closing down of public services etc. The EU has done nothing for the people of the UK apart from take money off us, but the rich are still getting richer.
Germany must be around the largest , but it still needs a lot of food banks and did even before Mrs M opened the floodgates . Wonder if we are being mislead a lot about the success of the German economy.
It is nothing like paying your bar Bill. Paying your bar Bill for drinks you have had is fine but you wouldn't be expected to pay for future drinks you may have had if you had remained a member of the club.
Exactly Dilly, and the VAT may have been reduced in the meantime.
Although maybe not with the intentions of EU to have a centralised Tax system, which ultimately means centralised everything.(Pay, benefits, mortgages, pensions, plus more).
I firmly believe that once out, all these issues that have been for so long uneventful, and ministers being gagged because of committed changes in the direction of the EU,will come into fruition once again. There are no two ways about it that our Ministers have been unable to voice anything out of line with EU Command Centre for a long time. Apart from Farage and Boris, for which I'm thankful for both as without them we would have little understanding of what was, has ,and will be going on in a future within the EU. When no discussion comes out of authority , no vision, no information that is communicated to the people of each nation other that by their own Governments who are obliged to give the smallest amount and how it will work, there is something very dangerous going on. Isn't how the Nazis gained strength, by people being shut up, afraid to speak out, and brainwashed into thinking everything was right for them ? I'm glad Boris speaks up, because although admittedly he makes some gaffs at times, he does at least say what he means and with the continued onslaught of trying to have him removed (I really don't know why Labour are so intent on this issue) before he goes, maybe Diane Abbott should go as she sits as Home Secretary in waiting. THAT is the biggest scare that this country faced this century!
Ex. I bet your masses of shares have gone up A LOT since Brexit !!! It's not all doom and gloom is it, but you didn't mention the markets, and according to many the country hasn't collapsed since Brexit, as promised, we are increasing production, employment and a lot more so how you can say UK is failing I don't know. Maybe it's wishful thinking on your part but I am very positive and I think we owe it to ourselves to embrace what we can now and stop fracturing our own country for the benefit of none.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
... you wouldn't be expected to pay for future drinks you may have had if you had remained a member of the club.
There is no question of paying for benefits we won't receive. But if you have - say - argued for the club to build an extension, and agreed to paying a share of this, then surely you should pay that before leaving rather than expecting all the other members to pay it for you?
It is nothing like paying your bar Bill. Paying your bar Bill for drinks you have had is fine but you wouldn't be expected to pay for future drinks you may have had if you had remained a member of the club.
Exactly Dilly, and the VAT may have been reduced in the meantime.
Although maybe not with the intentions of EU to have a centralised Tax system, which ultimately means centralised everything.(Pay, benefits, mortgages, pensions, plus more).
I firmly believe that once out, all these issues that have been for so long uneventful, and ministers being gagged because of committed changes in the direction of the EU,will come into fruition once again. There are no two ways about it that our Ministers have been unable to voice anything out of line with EU Command Centre for a long time. Apart from Farage and Boris, for which I'm thankful for both as without them we would have little understanding of what was, has ,and will be going on in a future within the EU. When no discussion comes out of authority , no vision, no information that is communicated to the people of each nation other that by their own Governments who are obliged to give the smallest amount and how it will work, there is something very dangerous going on. Isn't how the Nazis gained strength, by people being shut up, afraid to speak out, and brainwashed into thinking everything was right for them ? I'm glad Boris speaks up, because although admittedly he makes some gaffs at times, he does at least say what he means and with the continued onslaught of trying to have him removed (I really don't know why Labour are so intent on this issue) before he goes, maybe Diane Abbott should go as she sits as Home Secretary in waiting. THAT is the biggest scare that this country faced this century!
Ex. I bet your masses of shares have gone up A LOT since Brexit !!! It's not all doom and gloom is it, but you didn't mention the markets, and according to many the country hasn't collapsed since Brexit, as promised, we are increasing production, employment and a lot more so how you can say UK is failing I don't know. Maybe it's wishful thinking on your part but I am very positive and I think we owe it to ourselves to embrace what we can now and stop fracturing our own country for the benefit of none.
I'm sorry granny, but unless you can substantiate all these arguments your post comes across as a rambling rant, which it is pointless attempting to reply to.
Arguments should be based on reality. Here's one which exposes the "It will hurt them more than it will hurt us" argument, so ofte parroted by brexiteers (without any supporting facts).
44% of our exports go to the EU. 15% of theirs come to us. In the worst case if both these exports streams came to a sudden halt, who do you think would feel it most?
It is nothing like paying your bar Bill. Paying your bar Bill for drinks you have had is fine but you wouldn't be expected to pay for future drinks you may have had if you had remained a member of the club.
Exactly Dilly, and the VAT may have been reduced in the meantime.
Although maybe not with the intentions of EU to have a centralised Tax system, which ultimately means centralised everything.(Pay, benefits, mortgages, pensions, plus more).
I firmly believe that once out, all these issues that have been for so long uneventful, and ministers being gagged because of committed changes in the direction of the EU,will come into fruition once again. There are no two ways about it that our Ministers have been unable to voice anything out of line with EU Command Centre for a long time. Apart from Farage and Boris, for which I'm thankful for both as without them we would have little understanding of what was, has ,and will be going on in a future within the EU. When no discussion comes out of authority , no vision, no information that is communicated to the people of each nation other that by their own Governments who are obliged to give the smallest amount and how it will work, there is something very dangerous going on. Isn't how the Nazis gained strength, by people being shut up, afraid to speak out, and brainwashed into thinking everything was right for them ? I'm glad Boris speaks up, because although admittedly he makes some gaffs at times, he does at least say what he means and with the continued onslaught of trying to have him removed (I really don't know why Labour are so intent on this issue) before he goes, maybe Diane Abbott should go as she sits as Home Secretary in waiting. THAT is the biggest scare that this country faced this century!
Ex. I bet your masses of shares have gone up A LOT since Brexit !!! It's not all doom and gloom is it, but you didn't mention the markets, and according to many the country hasn't collapsed since Brexit, as promised, we are increasing production, employment and a lot more so how you can say UK is failing I don't know. Maybe it's wishful thinking on your part but I am very positive and I think we owe it to ourselves to embrace what we can now and stop fracturing our own country for the benefit of none.
I'm sorry granny, but unless you can substantiate all these arguments your post comes across as a rambling rant, which it is pointless attempting to reply to.
Well, you haven't substantiated any of your doom and gloom claims, they are simply your own personal projection for the future of UK.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
France and Germany want to see common basic corporation tax rates across the EU, according to reports
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Nothing in your post precludes the fact that 44% of what we export goes to the EU, whilst only 15% of theirs comes to us. What percentage of our imports come from the EU is even worse news, for we shall find ourselves paying tariffs on over 50% of our exports!
The graph implies that we export, not 44% of our trade to the EU, but OVER 50%!
Your post, in other words, claims that it will hurt us even more than I said!
If that is what you intended, thank you for your support.
France and Germany want to see common basic corporation tax rates across the EU, according to reports
So?
It's nothing to do with us once we are out.
I expect they are concerned about a 'race to the bottom' between member nations, each reducing corporation tax. The UK seems to be keen to have such a race, and once out it can do so. Even within the EU, the UK could, of course, veto it across the EU but that's one of the things we give up by leaving.
The figures are reality! I voted to remain and posted my intention on Wiki. I would now vote to leave given the chance. Farmers are subsidised not to grow food in a starving World and countries that call themselves democracies thwart the peoples will. You have made your mind up no matter what the reality is so I reason on facts. I think it is a !5% surplus in their favour.( spin)
Nothing was mentioned about strong border control or how she intends to keep the British people safe from Islamic extremists or any terror attacks, or illegal aliens coming into the UK. All lies as usual no wonder she was taking coughing fits. She must think the we are all just like sponges to soak all the same old rubbish she speaks and expects us to believe her. We need a strong Prime minister to take over and sort this Brexit out as soon as possible.
France and Germany want to see common basic corporation tax rates across the EU, according to reports
So?
It's nothing to do with us once we are out.
I expect they are concerned about a 'race to the bottom' between member nations, each reducing corporation tax. The UK seems to be keen to have such a race, and once out it can do so. Even within the EU, the UK could, of course, veto it across the EU but that's one of the things we give up by leaving.
You ask me to substantiate my claims.....then you don't like it. Here's another should we have stayed in the EU .
EU wants control of YOUR pension: Brussels' secret plan REVEALED
The European Union is planning a power grab for the UK welfare state in a bid to take control of pensions, benefits and the minimum wage.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The figures are reality! I voted to remain and posted my intention on Wiki. I would now vote to leave given the chance. Farmers are subsidised not to grow food in a starving World and countries that call themselves democracies thwart the peoples will.
The set-aside scheme was closed down 10 years ago though the media still think its a good story.
Originally Posted by granny
EU wants control of YOUR pension: Brussels' secret plan REVEALED
The United States of Germany, we ignored what was happening on the lead up to WW2, we have ignored what was set up after WW2 and its gradually coming to fruition.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
A rose by any other name--set aside is now tree planting to harvest in twenty years,returning wet lands for wild fowl and must have housing land banked and bought on the cheap..
France and Germany want to see common basic corporation tax rates across the EU, according to reports
So?
It's nothing to do with us once we are out.
I expect they are concerned about a 'race to the bottom' between member nations, each reducing corporation tax. The UK seems to be keen to have such a race, and once out it can do so. Even within the EU, the UK could, of course, veto it across the EU but that's one of the things we give up by leaving.
You ask me to substantiate my claims.....then you don't like it. Here's another should we have stayed in the EU .
EU wants control of YOUR pension: Brussels' secret plan REVEALED
The European Union is planning a power grab for the UK welfare state in a bid to take control of pensions, benefits and the minimum wage.
Perhaps I would like it more if you could tell me what claim of yours this is supposed to be substantiating. As it won't happen until we're out it appears to be utterly irrelevant.
I would not attempt to believe the Express, by the way. That way lies madness! Its politics is worse than its health advice: PRUNES CAUSE CANCER on Monday. BRITISH SCIENTISTS FINE PRUNES CURE CANCER the following Friday!
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Come off it Granny. The Express is a joke. Look at today's headline. When all the other papers are accurately describing the hilariously shambolic performance I witnessed using words like 'disaster' and 'chaotic' the Express is saying "TRUST THERESA'S FIGHTING SPIRIT" and describing how she 'spelled out her vision' of the future (albeit with half the letters missing).
It still babbles mindlessly about 'The Empire' and seems to think 'Maddie' is still alive - unlike Princess Di. - murdered by MI5 on the orders of the Duke of Ed.
To say it has 'issues' with reality is understating it by orders of magnitude. You have to be gaga to read it, other than as a laugh.
without taking your socks off "How many letters did drop off" (albeit with half the letters missing) As a witness both reports seem to have it wrong.The lady was not well FFS. (more spin)
I have no idea how many letters fell off. F-off was the one that springs to mind!
What I found more interesting was that the replacement for the 'Strong and stable' message of yore was clearly a rather feeble response to Labour's "For the Many, Not the few" message which hasn't changed.
The proposed cap on fuel charges was another attempt to out-Labour Labour. The party is clearly moribund, and is not producing original ideas, but simply aping the opposition.
A very poor speech throughout in my opinion. In particular, I noticed Mrs May admitted that the election campaign was 'Too scripted' whilst demonstrating that she'd learned nothing. So, very obviously, was her speech.
I have no idea how many letters fell off. F-off was the one that springs to mind!
What I found more interesting was that the replacement for the 'Strong and stable' message of yore was clearly a rather feeble response to Labour's "For the Many, Not the few" message which hasn't changed.
The proposed cap on fuel charges was another attempt to out-Labour Labour. The party is clearly moribund, and is not producing original ideas, but simply aping the opposition.
A very poor speech throughout in my opinion. In particular, I noticed Mrs May admitted that the election campaign was 'Too scripted' whilst demonstrating that she'd learned nothing. So, very obviously, was her speech.
It was a sad disappointing effort. I suspect shes only agreed to be there now till the rest have decided her successor.
It strikes me that all the ones who are opposing her leadership are the MP's who lost their seats in the last election. All fighting for revenge and in the hope that a pro Europe candidate will be elected as leader. If there has ever been a move to topple the leadership in this country, it has to be this. Maggie Thatcher was ousted and by the looks of it Mrs May soon, which of course was threatened by Corbyn, only a couple of months ago. What dark moves go on in Westminster, it's like a game of chess. It could be said that the male population in this country are very misogynistic, and I hope that after all these ridiculous non important slants that have been directed at Mrs May, that those who call for a change don't get the one they dislike even more. The whole thing is being stage managed, and it's got a huge amount to do with Momentum, and Corby ( of which I'm not even sure what his party is even called any longer ) is it Labour, Socialist Party of Great Britain, or what ? Certainly not New Labour, and all those elected Labour MP's will be ousted if he should ever be elected as leader of this country and replaced by those thinkers and doers from his own mind set. I fail to understand how the same MPs' can support Corbyn as they did Blair and Brown which were completely different in their political persuasions. It would seem that many of the Labour MP's are two faced and not there for the electorate at all, just their jobs. Roll on Diane Abbott, John McDonnell ,( and no doubt Len McClusky will be in the background somewhere) I say.... we wait for all the good things she and he have lined up for us, because I won't be affected for too long but as my daughter and one son are both left wingers and they have children of their won, I wish them what they wish themselves and good luck with their own children's future..
N.B. Ex, a polite request .Please refrain from further comments on any of my posts. I suggest you put me on ignore rather than being antagonistic.
Last edited by granny; 6th Oct 201710:26am.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
You are right about one thing granny we could indeed end up with someone worse, there is a right(wing) rogues gallery to choose from.
I don't agree with the misogynist angle, she was put forward as PM because of the Thatcher factor, Maggie mark 2 and she has failed, I don't think the gender is specific, she didn't fail as a woman she failed as a PM in very difficult circumstances all of her parties making. However she lost no time in wishing Corbyn was getting a P45, maybe she should have wished that on some of her cabinet, or she could have blamed the Labour party, after all they have been blamed for everything else.
I have to admit that I never had much regard for her ,even going back to pre 2010 election and was not impressed when she was voted Leader of the party after Cameron waltzed off. BUT, she is there and I think she is trying to play fair and unless we all get behind this Brexit thing instead of ripping our country apart , which shows us up to be a mess, why would we want Europe to be making jokes about us not being united on this front whilst they look for any tiny or large crevice to creep in like an army of soldier ants making their nest and eventually overrunning us with cross breed Brussels ants ? Because I believe that is on the cards if we are not careful. Pleasing to 'remainers' I suppose. You mentioned the Labour Party ,Casper. Tell me who is the Labour Party because I don't recognise any of them as a Labour Party ? It seems to change from middle ground to left, to far left. How can this be , do all the supporters fluctuate to such extremes and feel happy with it ? Very odd !
Last edited by granny; 6th Oct 201711:34pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I don't think I've seen quite so many knives in one cabinet before, all queued up like the starting line at Aintree.
Yes, Labour has been infiltrated by the right wing Blairites hence Momentum came about to kick the party away from the Tories that robbed the name "Labour".
Tory party is also all over the place, TM's maiden speech would have been good enough for Keir Hardie and yet got a rounding applaud from the Tories.
There is nothing "fair" about a PM who has reduced the disposable income of most of the country but says she has increased it. She lies and people believe it, 12% cut for many and 20% rise for the very few, following the American model to the letter.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
. You mentioned the Labour Party ,Casper. Tell me who is the Labour Party because I don't recognise any of them as a Labour Party ? It seems to change from middle ground to left, to far left. How can this be , do all the supporters fluctuate to such extremes and feel happy with it ? Very odd !
I have never understood the definition 'far left'.
With reference to her conference speech , I've just been looking at another forum (nationwide) discussing that very topic. Amazingly, of over 30 posts all but 2 were in support of her, even the Labour members thought that she delivered well considering all things that the way she is being hounded by the press and the BBC and other party members is pretty despicable . That surprised me, to be honest. Thought the general consensus would have been much the same as on here.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
You mentioned the Labour Party ,Casper. Tell me who is the Labour Party because I don't recognise any of them as a Labour Party ? It seems to change from middle ground to left, to far left. How can this be , do all the supporters fluctuate to such extremes and feel happy with it ? Very odd !
I could ask the same of you granny who is the Conservative party? are they the self appointed custodians of GB who know what is best for every one, who speak of democracy but ignore it when it suits, going back to 1975 in the days of Harold Wilson, when it was feared the country was being overrun by communism and poor old HW was feared to be a communist puppet, they conspired with and supported a coup and military intervention to take over the running of the country, all in everyone's interest of course, because they know what is best for each and all, yes it's history but make no mistake the will to support organisations to overthrow a legally appointed government was there, that shows what they were/are capable of, what's the saying money and power corrupt anything to gain or hang on to power, true then true now.
I can remember watching a whole programme about that exact exercise, Casper. Back in the 1970's. It was not the Tories at all, it was the military , and that would have been a military coup. They were sitting in waiting all over the country, for the given signal, it was that close !
Is that what we want again ?
'Poor old' Harold Wilson was up to all sorts ! I also remember his office being secretly raided and documents going missing.
But if you think that Corbyn and McDonnell are the right ones for this country, then I won't argue . Good luck to all the Neo Marxists.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I can't bear the thought of JC, Abbott and co getting in Granny and as much as they say not I think there are alot of folk like ourselves. On the other hand I have gone off T May as I think she's quite weak and at the mo struggling to think who would be better, but I just hope there is a Super MP somewhere who will emerge and sort things out, not holding my breath though...
Read up on it again granny, do you honestly think ex military, arms dealers and other's including government agencies could put something together without support, as I say not officially involved, because that would be political suicide but through Conservative channels, many of the ex military with family links in the Tory party, and of course who would step into the breach, yes you've guessed it.
I can't bear the thought of JC, Abbott and co getting in Granny and as much as they say not I think there are alot of folk like ourselves. On the other hand I have gone off T May as I think she's quite weak and at the mo struggling to think who would be better, but I just hope there is a Super MP somewhere who will emerge and sort things out, not holding my breath though...
BIG BAD BORIS might be the next prime minister. The UK is falling apart.
Read up on it again granny, do you honestly think ex military, arms dealers and other's including government agencies could put something together without support, as I say not officially involved, because that would be political suicide but through Conservative channels, many of the ex military with family links in the Tory party, and of course who would step into the breach, yes you've guessed it.
When we get to that stage, who are primarily the Militaries allegiances ? Not a political party, they honour King/Queen and country. One political party cannot give orders in such circumstances and if you consider that to be the case, it could have been any of the political parties. But it was not. No matter what you read, the top brass of the Military were interviewed in that particular documentary and it was nothing to do with opposing political parties Tories, Liberals, or any of the others.
It doesn't always happen that anyone steps into the breach either. Quite often Military control continues for years in other countries. Military Junta, as in Greece, Military Law , or even stratocracy.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I can't bear the thought of JC, Abbott and co getting in Granny and as much as they say not I think there are alot of folk like ourselves. On the other hand I have gone off T May as I think she's quite weak and at the mo struggling to think who would be better, but I just hope there is a Super MP somewhere who will emerge and sort things out, not holding my breath though...
BIG BAD BORIS might be the next prime minister. The UK is falling apart.
Boris will NOT be the next PM. He will not be given the vote by his own party members. That would be political suicide, and I fail to understand why everyone is so damned obsessed with this guy.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Boris will NOT be the next PM. He will not be given the vote by his own party members. That would be political suicide, and I fail to understand why everyone is so damned obsessed with this guy.
When a party is clowning around you might as well have clowns doing it.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
It's going to be fun to see those who 'can't bear' the thought of Corbyn getting in when he does so.
I think the conservative party is going through its death throes at the moment, so there will be - in Thatchers words 'No Alternative'
A party that is almost 100% financed by private business donors is not a party at all. It is lobby group. The political wing seems to be composed if inept chancers who put climbing the greasy pole before any social responsibility. The sooner it vanishes up its own fundament with a pop leaving only an evil sulphurous smell the better.
It's going to be fun to see those who 'can't bear' the thought of Corbyn getting in when he does so.
I think the conservative party is going through its death throes at the moment, so there will be - in Thatchers words 'No Alternative'
A party that is almost 100% financed by private business donors is not a party at all. It is lobby group. The political wing seems to be composed if inept chancers who put climbing the greasy pole before any social responsibility. The sooner it vanishes up its own fundament with a pop leaving only an evil sulphurous smell the better.
+1
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Anyone curious about the sort of trade deals available from countries outside the EU need look no further than Bombardier.
If we were intending to stay within the EU, I guess one might be able to ask the EU to apply sanctions against Boeing aircraft coming into the EU which might actually have an effect on the Boeing company. The UK buys too few of them to make much difference one way or the other.
It would be very embarrassing for our hapless government to do that now.
Keep reading the odd anti brexit propaganda item slipping into news.. How we can vote to come back in if we change our minds, etc etc. Me thinks the whole tory fiasco will be used to stumble and slow brexit to the point that the next election may be an in out vote on Europe.
If you want to leave, you need to plan how you are going to do it well before doing so, and make preparations for how the country will exist after we've left. You also need a half-competent government to push it through.
Fail on either of these and you are looking at major problems. Dail on both counts and I really don't see it succeeding.
If we leave, we will have to meet the criteria for membership laid down by the EU. This may be very different from current rules, and without the UK's involvement they are most unlikely to suit us.
I see Emily Thornberry, whose opinion I have a great deal of respect for, now believes we are heading for 'no deal'.
The government is still giving conflicting signals to the EU with the PM suggesting we will pay a lot more than £20 billion to get the talks moving whilst Liam Fox is spouting nonsense about making any payment depend on the terms of a good trade deal! Like it or not, it is the EU that defines the terms of the negotiations and they have made this impossible. Does Fox not know this?
A poll a day or so back on how the government was doing on brexit found three-quarters of the country saying it was doing badly. With public opinion like that, it is pretty certain that any deal will be found wanting and rejected. A 'no deal' solution is the worst possible outcome, and everyone knows it.
What an appalling mess it all is. I do not see how ANY sort of sensible deal in ANY area can be agreed when you have such a massively split government.
I am pretty sure that a 'no-deal' brexit will not get through our Parliament and the brexit thing will be stopped in its tracks. Those people who called glibly for 'Sovereignty' will have time to reflect that they have it. Their Sovereign Parliament will have spoken for them.
Hitler tried to bomb the stuffing out of the British People and failed...now it seems the EU has us by the short and curlies.. All the EU politicians want to be made to walk past every British and Commonwealth war grave
Hitler tried to bomb the stuffing out of the British People and failed...now it seems the EU has us by the short and curlies.. All the EU politicians want to be made to walk past every British and Commonwealth war grave
Well said, that man. Basically, EU politicians don't give a stuff about us, just so long as Germany rises from the ashes, once again, all is well with her French poodle at her side. Lets' not forget that it was the Germans AND the French who ran the Jews almost off the cliff edge and all the way down to Marseilles to escape by the ship load. They still have the same cultural mind set, and so far as Poland and a few more besides are concerned, they are all looking out for their own. So why shouldn't we ? Bloody sick of the lot of it to be truthful. I had to laugh tonight when the BBC reported that Madrid might close down Catalonia's National TV service due to it being pro-independence ! Ha ha ha ha ha ! I'm surprised the BBC even had the nerve to report such a claim, coming from them it's a joke. (as pro-remainers)
Last edited by granny; 22nd Oct 201710:55pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Spain seems to be wielding the rod atm. and has flavours of Franco. I bet if a civil war started all the pro-remainers' here would soon change their minds. Get out quick, instead of worrying about the interest to be accumulated on their millions or crashing investments. OMG what would they all do. Particularly that sultry madam Thornberry. She is vile and a snob if ever there was ( she's not really what labour are about is she ? ) Well connected and all that. Daddy a big noise in the UN and NATO. No, she's not for this place much longer, she'll be off to cast her seductive glare on any unsuspecting fool of a guy to give her a glance. Could that be somewhere in Europe ? Yes, almost certainly..with husband who at present is a Judge of the High Court of England and Wales,Rt Hon Christopher Nugee, no less and could well have his sights set on promotion in Europe taking Emily or should I say Lady Nugee with him ? Really can't stand the woman... how dare she pretend to care for anyone other than herself as she rents out her properties at extortionate amounts.
Rant over.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Spains problems are its own not those of the EU. You should surely be celebrating the fact that that country is still sovereign and can manage its own affairs without the EU. If it DID step in, you would be no doubt attacking it for overruling a sovereign government.
As to likening the present situation with WW2 with Hitler dropping bombs on us, that is even more deranged! The point is that everything bad that is happening in brexit is OUR FAULT. You can't blame the French or the Germans or any other perfidious foreigner for it. It is all the fault of a short-sighted Cameron government, the cretins who swallowed the guff from Boris and Co, and not a hopelessly inept May government. It is like watching a lunatic attempting to jump off a cliff but who is too deranged to know how to do it!
Don't blame Hitler, fish and granny. Blame yourselves for this one.
The point is that everything bad that is happening in brexit is OUR FAULT. You can't blame the French or the Germans or any other perfidious foreigner for it. It is all the fault of a short-sighted Cameron government, the cretins who swallowed the guff from Boris and Co, and not a hopelessly inept May government.
I'd challenge that and say it is Gordon Brown's fault for signing up to the Treaty of Lisbon. He (and other EU leaders) knew if he had a referendum then the UK was probably going to vote down the Maastricht Treat so they re-worded it and called it the Treaty of Lisbon. One of the most undemocratic acts by the EU and the UK.
Its a crazy situation where the Government is signing off all these treaties and yet it hasn't even got a proper treaty with its own people ie a proper and current Bill of Rights. If a Government is signing away any significant part of of sovereignty then we should have a referendum.
The Treaty of Lisbon was a huge step on the way to the United States of Germany, it was more significant than us joining the common market in the first place.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
WE voted to leave not Gordon Brown. It is OUR fault. I will take responsibility although I voted to remain, and am rather disappointed to find you attempting to blame someone else for our folly, despite (presumably) voting to leave.
