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Excoriator #1038146 29th May 2017 1:45pm
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The more I learn about this JC , the more I distrust him. A true snake in the grass just waiting to cripple this country if he ever gets a chance. Telling everybody what they want to hear but as I have said before not achievable in my opinion. Don't trust him one bit the movie Face Off jumps into my mind..

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Excoriator #1038147 29th May 2017 1:50pm
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I dont distrust him, I think hes a good man . My worry is that that we will end up taking decades to recover, and we will be weak sitting ducks for any country or outside pressure groups that feel like stamping he will , with all the best intentions, be too lenient, too reasonable (with EU) about a Brexit deal ,which when combined with the borrowing of billions and billions will see us in serious trouble ,especially if borrowing rates rise, which could take us decades to recover from . We will be sitting ducks for any pressure groups /countries that feel like trampling us.

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Sorry about that post, it was too late to alter it, some of my alterations were misplaced in the text and it really doesnt read correctly at all .Should have read .

I dont distrust him, I think hes a good man . My worry is that he will , with all the best intentions, be too lenient, too reasonable (with EU) about a Brexit deal ,which when combined with the borrowing of billions and billions will see us in serious trouble ,especially if borrowing rates rise, which could take us decades to recover from . We will be sitting ducks for any pressure groups /countries that feel like trampling us. Half the problem will also be that he trusts 'the people' not to take advantage if he puts various helps etc in place etc , but loads I think will just screw the improved distribution system and it will bankrupt us.

Last edited by venice; 29th May 2017 2:01pm.
Excoriator #1038153 29th May 2017 5:20pm
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How anybody can trust the tories is way beyond me. They are blatantly making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Tory manifestos are sales blurb to get votes, as soon as they get in power the manifesto is chucked in the bin. Yet again they have a cap on pensioners care contribution in the manifesto, this lasted two weeks last time before they junked it.

The tories have hugely reduced corporation tax from 28% to 19% but keep on grabbing money from the less well off. They have abolished the small business reductions so that small businesses now pay the same rate as huge businesses. They plan to reduce corporation tax even further to 17% whilst increasing the punishing austerity measures.

Corbyn has always openly done what he does to create peace, he sincerely believed a united Ireland was the best option. This could well have been the case if it hadn't been for the enormous discrimination against the Catholics (which is now officially acknowledged by all parties). The Catholics were forced to leave Northern Ireland in droves which created an unbalanced community and the aggro ramped up again.


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Excoriator #1038154 29th May 2017 6:13pm
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Corbyn lives in a pipe dream. You only have to look round the world to see his system of government has failed.


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Excoriator #1038155 29th May 2017 6:30pm
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Which countries are they. All countries that promote the division of wealth end up in civil war or bankruptcy. .

Those countries that invest in their people and infrastructure succeed.


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

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cools #1038178 30th May 2017 12:41am
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Originally Posted by cools
The more I learn about this JC , the more I distrust him. A true snake in the grass just waiting to cripple this country if he ever gets a chance. Telling everybody what they want to hear but as I have said before not achievable in my opinion. Don't trust him one bit the movie Face Off jumps into my mind..


Exactly, Cools. He's a devious, double headed snake.
His socialist policies are from archaic experimentation which hasn't worked as Jimbob says.

Corbyn's style of left Socialism is on a par with Venezuela and we see what's happened there. He's not Labour left, he's Labour far left and it's worrying when Mcdonnell is a Marxist, Corbyn a Trotskyist being backed up by McCluskey , who's a Communist. Goodness knows what Abbott is underneath her delectable grin but what a line up to lead this country !

I am also amazed that the likes of Blair, Brown, Major, Clegg, and others who are keeping very quiet. They have had enough to shout about over Brexit, surely they cannot see this man as being a leader of a Labour Government ? If he doesn't get elected (please God) I can see the party splitting sending him and his treacherous cronies to the back of beyond.

John McDonnell has already called for 'insurrection' prior to the last General Election. If the Tories are elected, he'll do exactly the same thing to rock and try to bring down the Government if it's not Labour.

I've had various correspondence from my Labour MP and I quite like her, but I won't be voting for her as the thought of giving Corbyn my vote is excruciating.

Why Socialism Doesn't Work

1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!

2. The strength of capitalism can be attributed to an incentive structure based upon the three Ps: (1) prices determined by market forces, (2) a profit-and-loss system of accounting and (3) private property rights. The failure of socialism can be traced to its neglect of these three incentive-enhancing components.

3. By their failure to foster, promote, and nurture the potential of their people through incentive-enhancing institutions, centrally planned economies deprive the human spirit of full development. Socialism fails because it kills and destroys the human spirit–just ask the people leaving Cuba in homemade rafts and boats [and those waiting in long lines today in Venezuela struggling, and often failing, to buy food].

4. The temptress of socialism is constantly luring us with the offer: “give up a little of your freedom and I will give you a little more security.” As the experience of this century has demonstrated, the bargain is tempting but never pays off. We end up losing both our freedom and our security.



Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
granny #1038185 30th May 2017 8:50am
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And if we vote Tory we are going to get, poverty misery and tyranny, but we will have to work that much harder and longer for it, so whats the difference?

My biggest fear of leaving the EU was being left with a Tory dictatorship, stripped of any gains we have made toward equality and pushed back into Victorian times, if you think Corbyn is a snake in the grass take a closer look at the alternative Tory line up, do you really believe that they understand how ordinary people live? the only thing they believe is of how much use we are to them, and like any other dictatorship if you are of little use or value you are forgotten, given the minimum of support at the least cost.

PS I was going to suggest in the spirit of true socialism that we have a whip around for poor Dave Cameron for some trainers at Sports Direct, or a M&S dress for his poor wife,from all accounts they must be getting down to their last few million. wink

casper #1038187 30th May 2017 9:58am
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The Story of Chicken Licken

Once upon a time there was a little chick called Chicken Licken who lived on a farmyard in the countryside.
One day, Chicken Licken went to the woods. He stopped by an oak tree. Suddenly a tiny acorn dropped from
the tree – wheeeeeeeeee! And hit Chicken Licken on the head – BONK!

Unfortunately, Chicken Licken didn’t see the acorn. He looked up the clear blue sky. “Oh, no!” he said “The
sky is falling, I must tell the king.”

So he ran and he ran and he ran until he got to the farmyard where he met Henny Penny.
“What’s the hurry?” clucked Henny Penny.
“The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the king” cried Chicken Licken
“I’d better come too” clucked Henny Penny

So Chicken Licken and Henny Penny scurried off to find the king.
“What’s the hurry?” crowed Cocky Locky.
“The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the king” cried Chicken Licken
“I’d better come too” crowed Cocky Locky

So Chicken Licken, Henny Penny and Cocky Locky scurried off to find the king.
“What’s the hurry?” quacked Ducky Lucky and Drakey Lakey
“The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the king” cried Chicken Licken
“I’d better come too” quacked Ducky Lucky and Drakey Lakey

So Chicken Licken, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky, Ducky Lucky and Drakey Lakey scurried off to find the king.
“What’s the hurry?” honked Goosey Loosey
“The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the king” cried Chicken Licken
“I’d better come too” honked Goosey Loosey

So Chicken Licken, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky , Ducky Lucky, Drakey Lakey and Goosey Loosey scurried off
to find the king.
“What’s the hurry?” gobbled Turkey Lurkey
“The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the king” cried Chicken Licken
“I’d better come too” gobbled Turkey Lurkey

So Chicken Licken, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky , Ducky Lucky, Drakey Lakey, Goosey Loosey and Turkey
Lurky scurried off to find the king.
“What’s the hurry?” snapped Foxy Loxy.
“The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the king” cried Chicken Licken
“Follow me, my feathery friends, I can help you find the king” smiled Foxy Loxy.

So, Chicken Licken, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky, Ducky Lucky, Draky Lakey, Goosey Loosey and Turkey Lurky
followed Foxy Loxy deeper into the forest.

Foxy Loxy was just getting ready to gobble up the feathery friends when suddenly a tiny acorn dropped
from the tree – wheeeeeeeeee! And hit Foxy Loxy on the head – BONK!

Luckily, Foxy Loxy didn’t see the acorn. He looked up the clear blue sky. “Oh, no!” he said “The sky is
falling, I must tell the king.”

Foxy Loxy ran off and was never seen again. Everyone looked at Chicken Licken.

“Are you sure the sky fell on your head” they said.
“Well, maybe it was an acorn” said Chicken Licken!
And they chased him all the way home to the farmyard.

Morning Casper hi


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Excoriator #1038190 30th May 2017 10:58am
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Not a sensible thing to say about the Cameron's, Casper. Corbyn raised in Yewtree Manor ! His mother's family were VERY well off according to his brother Piers ( a Communist ).

Corbyn 'profile' He's also fluent in Spanish, reads Latin American Literature, has a deep connection with South American states, has been likened to various leaders of South American states, his first wife a Chilean refugee, 2nd wife, Mexican. His manifesto has been likened to Hugo Chavez. They are the dictatorship countries ,Casper. Have a look at images of these places , not the cities but outside in the small towns and villages and see the poverty, the dirt tracks the houses on stilts and the run down deprivation. Then tell us that 21st Socialism works.

Now, the worrying thing is about Corbyn, his policies will take longer than one term of office in Westminster, and he knows that ! Corbyn is NOT about to resign as leader of the Labour Party, which I find incredibly worrying as it shows his determination to control. He could partly or fully change ALL the rules and how else do dictators come into control ?

" Mr Corbyn, considered the UK’s equivalent of Bernie Sanders, has a personal and activist history in Latin America, citing Salvador Allende, the Chilean president who was deposed (and allegedly murdered) during Chile’s 1973 CIA backed Coup d’etat as a personal hero. Some in South America have even likened him to a British Pepe Mujica, former president or Uruguay."

His friends !

[Linked Image]
Fernando Lugo (President of Paraguay), Evo Morales (President of Bolivia), Lula da Silva (President of Brazil), Rafael Correa (President of Ecuador) and Hugo Chávez (President of Venezuela) in 2009. January 29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_of_the_21st_century

Socialism of the 21st century argues that both free-market industrial capitalism and twentieth-century socialism have failed to solve urgent problems of humanity, like poverty, hunger, exploitation, economic oppression, sexism, racism, the destruction of natural resources, and the absence of a truly participative democracy.[2] Therefore, because of the local unique historical conditions, socialism of the 21st century is often contrasted with previous applications of socialism in other countries and aims for a more decentralized and participatory planning process.[3] Socialism of the 21st century has democratic socialist elements, but primarily resembles Marxist revisionism.[3]


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Excoriator #1038192 30th May 2017 11:25am
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I always thought of a Ponzi scheme as being highly representative of capitalism. The money is bound to flow up the pyramid and those at the bottom of the pyramid get nowhere, the longer it lasts the more people there are at the bottom.

Your criticism of socialism is that it loses incentive then you use Venezuela as an example of where socialism failed, however Venezuela has not failed through lack of incentive, it has failed through crime and corruption. A robust police force should have been a priority but was ignored in the hurry to do other things.

There will always be greed, every system needs policing to control that greed whether capitalist or socialist.

Socialism doesn't take a lot of change to become progressive-socialism which is a realistic system. Capitalism hasn't got an equivalent way of moderating itself.

An important thing is that incentive also needs opportunity, something which is often totally overlooked.


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

https://ddue.uk
granny #1038193 30th May 2017 1:10pm
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Hi granny, very droll, here's one to think on:

There is no such thing as paranoia.
Your worst fears can come true at any moment.

As for Dave Cameron its not about the money, its about Dave marching into Sports Direct accompanied by his minders straight to the front of the queue in true Tory style, without even the the courtesy of an excuse me, manners cost nothing, the arrogance must have come from his days as a buller boy and the belief that you can bully and pay for your way out of anything.

diggingdeeper #1038196 30th May 2017 2:08pm
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


Your criticism of socialism is that it loses incentive then you use Venezuela as an example of where socialism failed, however Venezuela has not failed through lack of incentive, it has failed through crime and corruption. A robust police force should have been a priority but was ignored in the hurry to do other things.

There will always be greed, every system needs policing to control that greed whether capitalist or socialist.

.


You are correct to a point. The downfall of Venezuela began when Perez in the 1970's nationalised the petroleum and oil industry. I think the Politicians saw it as a feast as the oil prices were high at the same time they offered bribes of hand outs to the people in the way of 'benefits'.
Venezuelan politicians are still robbing the country (socialists) .There are many more examples of such.

A bit like the oil rich Arab nation of UAE and others do. All wealthy due to perks and benefits. Emirati men receive $19,000 when they marry an Emirati woman, for example, but they only have 9 million population. Venezuela population in 1970's was 11 million, today it's 31 million and the bribes don't work any longer.

Followed by Chavez cutting ties to the World Bank and the IMF.

I probably focus more on Venezuela as my brother-in-law is Venezuelan and his family still live out there, so I know more of what goes on, maybe .


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
casper #1038197 30th May 2017 2:10pm
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Originally Posted by casper
Hi granny, very droll, here's one to think on:

There is no such thing as paranoia.
Your worst fears can come true at any moment.

As for Dave Cameron its not about the money, its about Dave marching into Sports Direct accompanied by his minders straight to the front of the queue in true Tory style, without even the the courtesy of an excuse me, manners cost nothing, the arrogance must have come from his days as a buller boy and the belief that you can bully and pay for your way out of anything.


The difference is Casper, that's not got anything to do with political policies and manifestos !


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
casper #1038200 30th May 2017 2:31pm
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Originally Posted by casper
Hi granny, very droll, here's one to think on:

There is no such thing as paranoia.
Your worst fears can come true at any moment.

As for Dave Cameron its not about the money, its about Dave marching into Sports Direct accompanied by his minders straight to the front of the queue in true Tory style, without even the the courtesy of an excuse me, manners cost nothing, the arrogance must have come from his days as a buller boy and the belief that you can bully and pay for your way out of anything.


You obviously read the 'tittle tattle' newspapers to pick up stuff like that, Casper. Should Mr Cameron gone into Harrods and bought a pair of sparkly shoes like Mrs May's, you would have found something to complain about that too. laugh

I'll tell you a story. One Labour MP whom I bumped into, was so arrogant that he wouldn't even bend down to tie his own shoe lace. He asked his chauffer to do it for him. He came from Kirby in Liverpool...who the f.. did he think he was ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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