WikiWirral Online with you since 2003, fantastic.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,030,570
Topics75,879
Members13,799
Forums65
Posts in last 24hrs6
Most Online14,906
Nov 23rd, 2019
Who's Online Now
28 registered members (ALLANSAFE2, 6 invisible), 1,310 guests, and400 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
New General Forums
TV programme
by casper. 13th Apr 2021 4:32pm
Outside pool
by cools. 30th Mar 2021 10:06am
Very quiet Wikiwirral.
by Fidelio. 9th Feb 2021 12:00pm
Racism again
by casper. 11th Nov 2020 11:39am
New Wirral History
Hoylake and West Kirby's Tribute to a V.C.
by mikeeb. 20th Apr 2021 9:26am
Moreton Shore
by monikav. 4th Apr 2021 5:08pm
2 old maps
by mikeeb. 30th Mar 2021 2:54pm
Cintra, Meols
by figgybear. 12th Jun 2011 11:35pm
The New Brighton Pier
by leelad03. 23rd Feb 2011 8:32pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
New Brighton Artwork
Boaty McBoatface takes shape
Topic Replies
Clatterbridge tip
by cools. 22nd Apr 2021 5:02pm
What song are you listening to?
by BultacoAstro. 22nd Apr 2021 9:37am
SystemOfADown
by BultacoAstro. 22nd Apr 2021 8:57am
weekend break
by lincle. 22nd Apr 2021 8:52am
Cintra, Meols
by LauraJane. 21st Apr 2021 9:55pm
Hoylake and West Kirby's Tribute to a V.C.
by bert1. 20th Apr 2021 7:23pm
M53 closure
by mikeeb. 20th Apr 2021 9:12am
Super glue on glasses lens
by Excoriator. 19th Apr 2021 9:09am
Bidston Hill Underground Tunnels Part 2
by Dregek. 17th Apr 2021 9:59pm
April
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rate Topic
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Borstal query #1034387
5th Apr 2017 1:10pm
5th Apr 2017 1:10pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
I am researching family History and have come across some information but don't know where to go next.

If someone lived in Wallasey, was born in 1910, and went to Borstal as a youth, what Borstal would that be? What age would the said Borstal accept? And are there any records available I am wondering.

What conditions would they encounter and would they be allowed home at all or just had to stay and serve their time?

Thanks very much for any insight offered.







Google Ads
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034389
5th Apr 2017 1:30pm
5th Apr 2017 1:30pm
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,672
Wirral
G
granny Offline
Wiki Master
granny  Offline
Wiki Master
G
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,672
Wirral

Would this throw any light on the subject.

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/Heswall/


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Borstal query [Re: granny] #1034391
5th Apr 2017 1:44pm
5th Apr 2017 1:44pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,295
tranmere
B
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran
bert1  Offline

Wiki Veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,295
tranmere

Last edited by bert1; 5th Apr 2017 1:45pm.

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034400
5th Apr 2017 4:24pm
5th Apr 2017 4:24pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
Thanks so much granny and bert1 - great links! I have the person on the 1911 at home, being born in 1910. Just trying to bridge the gap between 1911 and the 1939 register.

The Heswall home is very interesting as what I have read ties in with what I do know and it makes sense to me, if this is the home they went to. Disturbing to read of the abuse though - I know it was different times but it is still disturbing to read and to know that my relative may have been on the receiving end.

I shall read it all with interest! Thanks again.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034401
5th Apr 2017 4:29pm
5th Apr 2017 4:29pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,912
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline
Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,912
Birkenhead
There were proper Borstal's run by the prison service from 1902 until 1982 with the main legislation occurring in 1908, these were separate from reformatory schools etc.

Two wings of Walton Prison in Liverpool were allocated as a male Corrective Institution for juveniles but I don't know from what date.

Cheshire didn't seem to have a Borstal. the nearest ones seem to be Manchester, Rochdale(Buckley Hall) and Stoke-on-Trent(Moor Court).


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034427
6th Apr 2017 6:31am
6th Apr 2017 6:31am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
Thanks diggingdeeper! I didn't think that Wirral would have one and that the offenders would be sent away to somewhere much further away. Without any concrete evidence I can only guess as to which institution was used.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034514
6th Apr 2017 10:04pm
6th Apr 2017 10:04pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 301
wirral
F
futurepast Offline
Old Hand
futurepast  Offline
Old Hand
F
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 301
wirral
I read a book many years ago, based on a true story, the book was called borstal boy wrote by a very famous Irish writer and poet called Brendan beehan, it tells of Brendan trying to blow up Cammell lairds during the second world war, Behan was lodging I think in Rock ferry at the time having not long landed on a ferry from Dublin. he ended up in Walton prison as a 15 or 16 year old, he was given a borstal sentence which was any where between 9 months to 3 years depending on each prisoners relevant behaviour, if your face didn't fit you was serving the 3 years, Walton prison I think was used to hold remand prisoners and then allocate them to other Borstals around the country, I remember him writing they had to sew mail bags by hand as a job when he was in Walton prison. Borstal was a punishment given by the courts for young criminals that where not suitable to enter service on the navy training ships, Borstal started in 1902 and ended on 24th May 1983 and was replaced with a new system called youth custody. Nearest borstal to the Wirral I could find would be Hindley borstal near Wigan and Stoke heath borstal near market drayton, Borstals where based on hard work,strict diets,loads of exercise and Sunday church.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034516
6th Apr 2017 10:20pm
6th Apr 2017 10:20pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,912
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline
Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,912
Birkenhead
Hindley Borstal wasn't opened until 1961 and Stoke Heath 1966.

Of the three I mentioned, Buckley Hall wasn't opened until after WW2 and I'm struggling to find details for Moor Court. So the only probable Borstal is possibly Manchester, now known as Strangeways.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034565
7th Apr 2017 4:28pm
7th Apr 2017 4:28pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
Thanks very much futurepast and digging deeper. Your explanations are very welcome and are helping to narrow down the possibilities. The person concerned spent many years as either a dock worker or in the merchant navy - so I am leaning towards the navy training ships, but then again , if the dates fit, there is the option of Strangeways. I am estimating that they would have spent time in borstal up to age 18 and therefore up to 1928, maximum, as the year they were there.

All very interesting and plenty to learn, thanks to all your replies!

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034640
8th Apr 2017 9:32am
8th Apr 2017 9:32am
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 19
wirral
P
paulaharry Offline
Newbeee
paulaharry  Offline
Newbeee
P
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 19
wirral
Regarding The Akbar Nautical School, My father ended up here after running away from a similar school down south, he was a Londoner himself. He stayed until he was 15 years old and then sent away to sea. He never had a good word to say about the place, he'd only say that they were right b@rst@ds. Also before it was built they had ship on the Mersey that served as the same purpose, it was also called the Akbar. Good luck in your search.

Re: Borstal query [Re: paulaharry] #1034664
8th Apr 2017 12:10pm
8th Apr 2017 12:10pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
Very interesting paulaharry, thanks very much for your input. The Akbar ship was scrapped in 1907 and then it seems, if I am correct, that it was put on the land, in dry dock, of the nautical training school in Heswall. Reading that your father was there and then sent away to sea, makes me think that the same circumstances occurred for my ancestor, in that he had no choice! I had thought that it was a choice that he was in the merchant navy and a dock labourer, but if he had been sent to Borstal and therefore trained, it now seems natural that the training would then have been used, and they were sent away to sea. The conditions seem to be so harsh, some would say it was deserved, but reading about it now makes uncomfortable reading. Your father has first hand experience and being sent so far away from his home, it would have made the experience much harder.

It would be fantastic if there were any records held, so my search goes on!

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034711
8th Apr 2017 6:49pm
8th Apr 2017 6:49pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,912
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline
Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,912
Birkenhead
I don't think the Akbar reformatory ship was moved, it was basically falling apart taking on a ton of water every 24 hours and its mast could no longer be rigged. The "school" was moved to temporary accommodation while the large training establishment was built in Heswall.

The new accommodation contained HMS Moonshine which was a hollow concrete replica of a steam ship.

The old ship was towed away to the breakers yard on the 2nd December 1907 the new accommodation being opened in 1909. I believe the temporary accommodation was also in Heswall but I have no details.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034744
9th Apr 2017 6:43am
9th Apr 2017 6:43am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 98
wirral
Thanks very much digging deeper - your explanation means I understand it better now! I got confused over the ship and where it actually went.

Would the accommodation, temporary and permanent, be secure, do you think? Would the residents be locked in and not allowed out?


Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034745
9th Apr 2017 7:09am
9th Apr 2017 7:09am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,295
tranmere
B
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran
bert1  Offline

Wiki Veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,295
tranmere


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034746
9th Apr 2017 7:30am
9th Apr 2017 7:30am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,295
tranmere
B
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran
bert1  Offline

Wiki Veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,295
tranmere
Originally Posted by geprgie260

It would be fantastic if there were any records held, so my search goes on!


Any records held are likely to be at Lancashire Archives, Preston.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/9f51918a-d514-4693-9f0c-c7d01749b5a9


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Hoylake and West Kirby's Tribute to a V.C.
by mikeeb. 20th Apr 2021 9:26am
M53 closure
by lincle. 19th Apr 2021 10:28am
Super glue on glasses lens
by mikeeb. 16th Apr 2021 4:28pm
When Did Wearing Masks End
by BultacoAstro. 16th Apr 2021 9:50am
weekend break
by lincle. 15th Apr 2021 5:08pm
For Sale & Free
amazon fire tv BOX
by stumpyduck. 15th Apr 2021 11:10am
Computer DVD disc drive
by GingerTom. 13th Apr 2021 5:46pm
Wirral Journal Magazine - free
by Mike666. 7th Apr 2021 11:35am
Electrician needed
by paul110180. 28th Mar 2021 3:33pm
Member Spotlight
Gibbo
Gibbo
Oxton
Posts: 2,227
Joined: December 2010
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
falkon58, zacshirley, leegrang, MarkSmedley, Hannah69
13799 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Super glue on glasses lens
by mikeeb. 16th Apr 2021 4:28pm
When Did Wearing Masks End
by BultacoAstro. 16th Apr 2021 9:50am
weekend break
by lincle. 15th Apr 2021 5:08pm
Price Street, New Ferry
by bri445. 14th Apr 2021 10:27pm
removal of TV aerial
by philmch. 4th Apr 2021 7:30pm
News : New Topics
M53 closure
by lincle. 19th Apr 2021 10:28am
Prince Philip died this morning
by mikeeb. 9th Apr 2021 12:11pm
Joe Biden sticking his nose in again.
by mikeeb. 9th Apr 2021 11:18am
Vaccine yellow card.
by mikeeb. 2nd Apr 2021 10:00am
Lost iPhone 8
by bangbang. 30th Mar 2021 11:25pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Covid vaccinations in Wirral ?
by philmch. 23rd Mar 2021 5:55pm
SystemOfADown
by GaryFromWirral. 9th Feb 2021 3:59pm
cheap kindle books
by derekdwc. 17th Nov 2020 11:06am
Bidston Hill Underground Tunnels Part 2
by robbo_theman. 23rd Sep 2008 8:58pm
What song are you listening to?
by . 24th Jun 2007 10:06am
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Thu 5:54am
Sunset Thu 8:26pm
Local Time Thu 10:57pm
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1