WikiWirral Wirral's Biggest Online Forum
Forum Statistics
Posts1,006,651
Topics74,481
Members12,698
Forums66
Posts in last 24hrs27
Most Online7,831
Apr 8th, 2013
Who's Online Now
64 registered members (11kendo, 15 invisible), 1,142 guests, and261 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
New General Forums
Two people and a car
by cools. 13th Aug 2018 3:47pm
How do Breasts Have So Much Power ?
by granny. 5th Aug 2018 4:33pm
Where's this?
by venice. 5th Aug 2018 3:24am
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
by rocks. 4th Aug 2018 11:25am
New Wirral History
Birkenhead Market.
by venice. 4th Aug 2018 7:54pm
1970's Murder in Central Park, Wallasey
by cutespam. 4th Aug 2018 11:28am
Clatterbridge workhouse
by venice. 4th Aug 2018 11:22am
Sir Thomas Massey Stanley 1841
by bliplandy. 1st Aug 2018 2:57pm
Listed buildings site
by derekdwc. 23rd Jul 2018 9:08pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
No more bridge, never be the same
Over Exposed Crash Site
Topic Replies
More threats to Wirral's Green Belt
by venice. 20th Aug 2018 9:26pm
Any old adidas predator football boots?
by Shaunmca123. 20th Aug 2018 9:19am
Opticians and Glasses
by diggingdeeper. 19th Aug 2018 11:54pm
What song are you listening to?
by casper. 19th Aug 2018 9:47am
Cannondale
by Thorwalker. 18th Aug 2018 8:48pm
Golf clubs for sale
by TheComputerLab. 18th Aug 2018 6:38pm
Fly out 330 compact mower
by TheComputerLab. 18th Aug 2018 6:34pm
Dog harness
by Thorwalker. 18th Aug 2018 3:08pm
Girls school shoes
by Thorwalker. 18th Aug 2018 3:06pm
August
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
The Duke of Lancaster
by Gibbo. 7th Aug 2018 11:23am
Ness Gardens Fun Day
by granny. 3rd Aug 2018 1:39pm
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rate Topic
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Borstal query #1034387
5th Apr 2017 1:10pm
5th Apr 2017 1:10pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
I am researching family History and have come across some information but don't know where to go next.

If someone lived in Wallasey, was born in 1910, and went to Borstal as a youth, what Borstal would that be? What age would the said Borstal accept? And are there any records available I am wondering.

What conditions would they encounter and would they be allowed home at all or just had to stay and serve their time?

Thanks very much for any insight offered.







Google Ads
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034389
5th Apr 2017 1:30pm
5th Apr 2017 1:30pm
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,533
Wirral
granny Offline
Wiki Master
granny  Offline
Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 15,533
Wirral

Would this throw any light on the subject.

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/Heswall/


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Borstal query [Re: granny] #1034391
5th Apr 2017 1:44pm
5th Apr 2017 1:44pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,006
tranmere
B
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran
bert1  Offline

Wiki Veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,006
tranmere

Last edited by bert1; 5th Apr 2017 1:45pm.

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034400
5th Apr 2017 4:24pm
5th Apr 2017 4:24pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
Thanks so much granny and bert1 - great links! I have the person on the 1911 at home, being born in 1910. Just trying to bridge the gap between 1911 and the 1939 register.

The Heswall home is very interesting as what I have read ties in with what I do know and it makes sense to me, if this is the home they went to. Disturbing to read of the abuse though - I know it was different times but it is still disturbing to read and to know that my relative may have been on the receiving end.

I shall read it all with interest! Thanks again.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034401
5th Apr 2017 4:29pm
5th Apr 2017 4:29pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,817
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,817
Birkenhead
There were proper Borstal's run by the prison service from 1902 until 1982 with the main legislation occurring in 1908, these were separate from reformatory schools etc.

Two wings of Walton Prison in Liverpool were allocated as a male Corrective Institution for juveniles but I don't know from what date.

Cheshire didn't seem to have a Borstal. the nearest ones seem to be Manchester, Rochdale(Buckley Hall) and Stoke-on-Trent(Moor Court).


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034427
6th Apr 2017 6:31am
6th Apr 2017 6:31am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
Thanks diggingdeeper! I didn't think that Wirral would have one and that the offenders would be sent away to somewhere much further away. Without any concrete evidence I can only guess as to which institution was used.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034514
6th Apr 2017 10:04pm
6th Apr 2017 10:04pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 301
wirral
F
futurepast Offline
Old Hand
futurepast  Offline
Old Hand
F
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 301
wirral
I read a book many years ago, based on a true story, the book was called borstal boy wrote by a very famous Irish writer and poet called Brendan beehan, it tells of Brendan trying to blow up Cammell lairds during the second world war, Behan was lodging I think in Rock ferry at the time having not long landed on a ferry from Dublin. he ended up in Walton prison as a 15 or 16 year old, he was given a borstal sentence which was any where between 9 months to 3 years depending on each prisoners relevant behaviour, if your face didn't fit you was serving the 3 years, Walton prison I think was used to hold remand prisoners and then allocate them to other Borstals around the country, I remember him writing they had to sew mail bags by hand as a job when he was in Walton prison. Borstal was a punishment given by the courts for young criminals that where not suitable to enter service on the navy training ships, Borstal started in 1902 and ended on 24th May 1983 and was replaced with a new system called youth custody. Nearest borstal to the Wirral I could find would be Hindley borstal near Wigan and Stoke heath borstal near market drayton, Borstals where based on hard work,strict diets,loads of exercise and Sunday church.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034516
6th Apr 2017 10:20pm
6th Apr 2017 10:20pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,817
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,817
Birkenhead
Hindley Borstal wasn't opened until 1961 and Stoke Heath 1966.

Of the three I mentioned, Buckley Hall wasn't opened until after WW2 and I'm struggling to find details for Moor Court. So the only probable Borstal is possibly Manchester, now known as Strangeways.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034565
7th Apr 2017 4:28pm
7th Apr 2017 4:28pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
Thanks very much futurepast and digging deeper. Your explanations are very welcome and are helping to narrow down the possibilities. The person concerned spent many years as either a dock worker or in the merchant navy - so I am leaning towards the navy training ships, but then again , if the dates fit, there is the option of Strangeways. I am estimating that they would have spent time in borstal up to age 18 and therefore up to 1928, maximum, as the year they were there.

All very interesting and plenty to learn, thanks to all your replies!

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034640
8th Apr 2017 9:32am
8th Apr 2017 9:32am
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 19
wirral
P
paulaharry Offline
Newbeee
paulaharry  Offline
Newbeee
P
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 19
wirral
Regarding The Akbar Nautical School, My father ended up here after running away from a similar school down south, he was a Londoner himself. He stayed until he was 15 years old and then sent away to sea. He never had a good word to say about the place, he'd only say that they were right b@rst@ds. Also before it was built they had ship on the Mersey that served as the same purpose, it was also called the Akbar. Good luck in your search.

Re: Borstal query [Re: paulaharry] #1034664
8th Apr 2017 12:10pm
8th Apr 2017 12:10pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
Very interesting paulaharry, thanks very much for your input. The Akbar ship was scrapped in 1907 and then it seems, if I am correct, that it was put on the land, in dry dock, of the nautical training school in Heswall. Reading that your father was there and then sent away to sea, makes me think that the same circumstances occurred for my ancestor, in that he had no choice! I had thought that it was a choice that he was in the merchant navy and a dock labourer, but if he had been sent to Borstal and therefore trained, it now seems natural that the training would then have been used, and they were sent away to sea. The conditions seem to be so harsh, some would say it was deserved, but reading about it now makes uncomfortable reading. Your father has first hand experience and being sent so far away from his home, it would have made the experience much harder.

It would be fantastic if there were any records held, so my search goes on!

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034711
8th Apr 2017 6:49pm
8th Apr 2017 6:49pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,817
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11,817
Birkenhead
I don't think the Akbar reformatory ship was moved, it was basically falling apart taking on a ton of water every 24 hours and its mast could no longer be rigged. The "school" was moved to temporary accommodation while the large training establishment was built in Heswall.

The new accommodation contained HMS Moonshine which was a hollow concrete replica of a steam ship.

The old ship was towed away to the breakers yard on the 2nd December 1907 the new accommodation being opened in 1909. I believe the temporary accommodation was also in Heswall but I have no details.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034744
9th Apr 2017 6:43am
9th Apr 2017 6:43am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
G
geprgie260 Offline OP
Member
geprgie260  Offline OP
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 97
wirral
Thanks very much digging deeper - your explanation means I understand it better now! I got confused over the ship and where it actually went.

Would the accommodation, temporary and permanent, be secure, do you think? Would the residents be locked in and not allowed out?


Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034745
9th Apr 2017 7:09am
9th Apr 2017 7:09am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,006
tranmere
B
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran
bert1  Offline

Wiki Veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,006
tranmere


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034746
9th Apr 2017 7:30am
9th Apr 2017 7:30am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,006
tranmere
B
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran
bert1  Offline

Wiki Veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,006
tranmere
Originally Posted by geprgie260

It would be fantastic if there were any records held, so my search goes on!


Any records held are likely to be at Lancashire Archives, Preston.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/9f51918a-d514-4693-9f0c-c7d01749b5a9


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Mark 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Finds from the last outing
by Detecting_wirral. 17th Aug 2018 7:08pm
Opticians and Glasses
by Moonstar. 15th Aug 2018 1:05pm
Need an earth strap fitting....
by gerrymoore. 13th Aug 2018 9:31am
paint mixing
by locomotive. 11th Aug 2018 8:52pm
Another plan for Birkenhead
by Norton. 10th Aug 2018 4:47pm
For Sale & Free
Any old adidas predator football boots?
by Shaunmca123. 20th Aug 2018 9:19am
Golf clubs for sale
by TheComputerLab. 18th Aug 2018 6:38pm
Fly out 330 compact mower
by TheComputerLab. 18th Aug 2018 6:34pm
Dog harness
by Thorwalker. 18th Aug 2018 3:08pm
Girls school shoes
by Thorwalker. 18th Aug 2018 3:06pm
Member Spotlight
Nigel
Nigel
Wirral
Posts: 851
Joined: March 2010
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Shaunmca123, ChesterMan, aaaaa0, kurto, DetectWirral79
12698 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
paint mixing
by locomotive. 11th Aug 2018 8:52pm
Water treatment plant Wrexham.
by venice. 8th Aug 2018 11:25am
Ness Gardens Fun Day
by granny. 3rd Aug 2018 1:39pm
Hanging a 11kg mirror on a dot and dab wall
by yr20405. 30th Jul 2018 9:29am
The Duke of Lancaster
by snowhite. 29th Jul 2018 8:50pm
News : New Topics
Another plan for Birkenhead
by Norton. 10th Aug 2018 4:47pm
Crucifixion
by diggingdeeper. 9th Aug 2018 10:34pm
Big Police Hunt Irby Pensby Thursaston
by fish5133. 8th Aug 2018 11:43pm
Trump on his pedestal.. again.
by granny. 3rd Aug 2018 1:48pm
Lost
by Kylix. 31st Jul 2018 4:24pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Finds from the last outing
by Detecting_wirral. 17th Aug 2018 7:08pm
Opticians and Glasses
by Moonstar. 15th Aug 2018 1:05pm
Need an earth strap fitting....
by gerrymoore. 13th Aug 2018 9:31am
Finds 08/08/18
by Detecting_wirral. 9th Aug 2018 8:16pm
Gadget for stopcock
by venice. 8th Aug 2018 12:50pm
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Mon 6:01am
Sunset Mon 8:29pm
Local Time Mon 11:03pm
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1