WikiWirral its great, register, enjoy and welcome.
Forum Stats
12249 Members
65 Forums
72891 Topics
982562 Posts
65 posts in the last 24hrs
Max Online: 7831 @ 8th Apr 2013 4:18pm
Who's Online - Click Me
86 registered (alan128, 15 invisible), 2092 Guests and 249 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


(Views 7days)This Weeks Most Read
Incident at Westminster 1260
Martin Mcguinness dies 672
Council tax bill for this year 2017 475
File too large 464
Offset number plates 426
1882 Plan of the borough of Birkenhead and Wards 348
Port Sunlight 277
ford focus 1.6 t reg rattling 271
William Bernard's building, Birkenhead 241
What does this all mean? 209
New General Forums
Clocks go Forward
by Mark
Today at 03:01 PM
Mannequin Challenge AKA MRI Scan
by fish5133
Yesterday at 11:20 AM
Surely the most honest add.....
by buddy
20th Mar 2017 5:43pm
Happy Birthday DIZDAZDOZ
by snowhite
19th Mar 2017 4:24pm
New Wirral History
William Bernard's building, Birkenhead
by yoller
20th Mar 2017 4:27pm
1882 Plan of the borough of Birkenhead and Wards
by Dave_Wood
19th Mar 2017 11:57am
New Brighton Coop
by Mike_White
9th Mar 2017 12:48pm
Tranmere High School for Girls 1882 Chesnut Grove
by sarah708
6th Mar 2017 8:23pm
Whetstone Lane, Birkenhead
by MoretonExpat
6th Mar 2017 8:04am
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Birkenhead Transport Museum 24th Feb 2017
fireworks on the Mersey last night
Topic Replies
boom
by rhoobarb2002
1 second ago
Reclaimed floorboards needed.
by Gold_Moon
Today at 08:09 PM
Offset number plates
by diggingdeeper
Today at 07:22 PM
Incident at Westminster
by diggingdeeper
Today at 07:16 PM
Planet Earth Tonight
by diggingdeeper
Today at 06:58 PM
various fly reels and boxes of fly's
by brady
Today at 10:50 AM
What song are you listening to?
by snowhite
Today at 10:46 AM
Challenge extreme angle grinder used once
by brady
Today at 10:43 AM
windows 7 64bit pc
by brady
Today at 10:38 AM
March
M Tu W Th F Sa Su
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Planet Earth Tonight
by diggingdeeper
Today at 06:58 PM
Lee and Cragg Quarries - Bacup
by Mark
23rd Mar 2017 7:43am
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1027905 - 2nd Jan 2017 2:34am Street Lighting - again
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9879
Loc: Birkenhead
Wirral Council have recently admitted that they know of 1758 unlit lamp fittings - I suspect that the actual numbers of defective lamp fittings may be three times that figure.

Despite all the noise they made last Autumn/Winter about examining all lights and would fix them all by May(iirc), I have seen many lights that were not fixed.

This financial year they have already fixed 3673 fittings but I know they have many to go.

More details and figures can be seen HERE

Of interest is Section 4 of the response where they state they have not spent one penny during the last two and a half years on "money spent on bulk light changes as part of maintenance of Wirral street lighting".

Section 5 would also indicate that the recent LED replacement program has only included 20% of fittings.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

Top
Wirral Council : Advertising
Click me for more Information......


Looking for a Service / Tradesman? Look in our Local Business Directory. Click Me
#1027907 - 2nd Jan 2017 9:25am Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper]
pacef8 Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 27th Dec 2008
Posts: 464
Loc: south wirral
No mention of which ones they have deliberately switched off then.

Top
#1027914 - 2nd Jan 2017 1:06pm Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 834
Loc: wirral
Quote:
No mention of which ones they have deliberately switched off then.


At least they have been on once. Drive along the New Ferry bypass and enjoy a section where they have NEVER one been on since installation!

Top
#1027923 - 2nd Jan 2017 4:56pm Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper]
Norton Online   Reading

Smartchild

Registered: 29th Sep 2011
Posts: 608
Loc: Wallasey
Another interesting find, DD.

Even more interesting is the fact that most lights cost between 3 and 10 times more to run when they are dimmed!! Surely, in most cases, brighter lights would mean fewer lights for the same level of illumination?

Is there no guarantee from the contractors used in the LED conversion, making them go back and repair faults on their work, within a certain time?

If you and I were paying contractors to do work, wouldn't we get them back to sort out what we'd paid for until it was right?

As ratepayers to this Council, we have paid and should be demanding our moneys worth with robust service levels and quality management in place.

And as to the money we paid for street lighting in the past two years that didn't get spent - could someone shine a light on that?

Top
#1027924 - 2nd Jan 2017 5:36pm Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 834
Loc: wirral
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO £68.36
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO bright £6.32
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO dimmed Low £38.20

Can anyone make sense of this?

The less energy you radiate, the more it costs! Presumably, they cost even more when they are switched off!

The mind boggles! Perhaps Ms Paterson, the Senior Information Management Officer (Business Services - Digital) can shine a light on this oddity.

It is worth noting that there is skill involved in answering freedom of information requests. It consists of making sure that the answer - whilst not overtly dishonest - is incomprehensible to the extent where no real information is released. Studiously avoiding any clue as to what CPO, CLO and CDM mean (if anything) leaving the enquirer guessing is typical of this sort of obfuscation.

Top
#1027939 - 2nd Jan 2017 6:48pm Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper]
keef666 Offline
Member

Registered: 29th Dec 2013
Posts: 66
Loc: Seacombe
When i have paid my last Council tax payment this week for the last year, i am going to ask them for a refund on account that some of the lights by me have been off for the last 14 months, workmen came out last year changed the bulbs to LED's andthey still never worked, amzed no one has had a crash or been run over as they are on a bend, maybe then the Council will get off its arse and fix them, and don't get me started on potholes!

Top
#1027961 - 2nd Jan 2017 10:45pm Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: Excoriator]
Papa_Juliet Offline
Newbeee

Registered: 28th Nov 2009
Posts: 34
Loc: Great Sutton
Originally Posted By: Excoriator
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO £68.36
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO bright £6.32
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO dimmed Low £38.20

Can anyone make sense of this?

The less energy you radiate, the more it costs! Presumably, they cost even more when they are switched off!

The mind boggles! Perhaps Ms Paterson, the Senior Information Management Officer (Business Services - Digital) can shine a light on this oddity.

It is worth noting that there is skill involved in answering freedom of information requests. It consists of making sure that the answer - whilst not overtly dishonest - is incomprehensible to the extent where no real information is released. Studiously avoiding any clue as to what CPO, CLO and CDM mean (if anything) leaving the enquirer guessing is typical of this sort of obfuscation.


I'm no street lighting expert, but a search of the above abbreviations associated with street lighting revealed the following:

CPO - Philips CosmoPolis™ (CPO) Outdoor Lighting System
See Philips CosmoPolis

CLO - Constant Light Output
See Philips Unistreet LED Lighting system

CDM - Ceramic Discharge Metal Halide
See - Ceramic Discharge Metal-Halide lamp

The Philips 140w Ceramic Metal Halide lamps appear to be incredibly efficient in terms of lumens per watt, producing up to 16,500 lumens of white light for 140 watts which is as good as the best LED's but requires a reflector to redirect light down which reduces output due to light being trapped in the housing. There is no indication in the datasheet that the lamp uses more power when dimmed, but it is slightly less efficient, requiring 60% of the maximum power when the light is dimmed by 50% so I suspect there is an error in the annual running cost figures shown in your FOI reply for these lamps, my guess is the annual cost at full output should be £68.36 and at 50% output £38.20 which roughly lines up with the datasheet figures.

Top
#1027965 - 2nd Jan 2017 11:03pm Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: Papa_Juliet]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9879
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: Papa_Juliet
The Philips 140w Ceramic Metal Halide lamps appear to be incredibly efficient in terms of lumens per watt, producing up to 16,500 lumens of white light for 140 watts which is as good as the best LED's but requires a reflector to redirect light down which reduces output due to light being trapped in the housing.


But a low pressure sodium would produce 29,400 lumens for that wattage albeit not white light.

Low pressure sodium is still the most efficient light source in many power ranges, an LED would be very lucky to get 14,000 for 140W.

What they are hoping for LED is that the life is greatly increased, the efficiency isn't as good but it is dimmable which can give a cost saving.

This graph is slightly out of date for LED efficiency but the order is still correct ...



Edited by diggingdeeper (2nd Jan 2017 11:06pm)
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

Top
#1027969 - 3rd Jan 2017 8:36am Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 834
Loc: wirral
New white LEDs claim around 100 l/W, but in theory could soon produce about 250 l/W.

Also of interest are laser illumination which can produce around 170 l/W

(See http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/201...ht-sources.html)

Something which doesn't seem to have occurred to our council, however, is that whatever light source you use, if the thing is broken, you get NO light from it until it is repaired.

Top

Moderator:  Mod 
Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
boom
by diggingdeeper
13 minutes 45 seconds ago
Planet Earth Tonight
by granny
Today at 11:50 AM
Reclaimed floorboards needed.
by Gold_Moon
Today at 10:45 AM
Has Talktalk been hacked yet again?
by Habdab
Yesterday at 10:25 AM
Offset number plates
by venice
23rd Mar 2017 1:24am
For Sale & Free
various fly reels and boxes of fly's
by brady
Today at 10:48 AM
Challenge extreme angle grinder used once
by brady
Today at 10:43 AM
White Hyundai I30, 2011 plate For sale, 1.4 petrol
by goodoldphil
Yesterday at 06:24 PM
I am having a clear out!
by TheComputerLab
Yesterday at 04:01 PM
Genuine Canada Goose Men's Chilliwack Jacket - L
by Liverpooltiger
23rd Mar 2017 1:14pm
Featured Member
Registered: 17th Mar 2017
Posts: 1
Newest Members
Chippy, Onetoughcookie, Monkeyboyliam121, andreap, LairdLad
12249 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Planet Earth Tonight
by granny
Today at 11:50 AM
Reclaimed floorboards needed.
by Gold_Moon
Today at 10:45 AM
Has Talktalk been hacked yet again?
by Habdab
Yesterday at 10:25 AM
What does this all mean?
by venice
22nd Mar 2017 12:20pm
black contiboard locally?
by fish5133
21st Mar 2017 9:30pm
News : New Topics
boom
by diggingdeeper
10 minutes 44 seconds ago
Incident at Westminster
by granny
22nd Mar 2017 3:40pm
Martin Mcguinness dies
by Dilly
21st Mar 2017 9:29am
British troops to Estonia
by fish5133
18th Mar 2017 8:16am
Unusual Phone calls
by granny
16th Mar 2017 3:53pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Offset number plates
by venice
23rd Mar 2017 1:24am
File too large
by Dilly
20th Mar 2017 10:41am
ford focus 1.6 t reg rattling
by Little_B
19th Mar 2017 11:02pm
Alloys refurb and colour change. The Wheel Deal.
by TheComputerLab
18th Mar 2017 9:17am
Has anyone fished
by Habdab
17th Mar 2017 8:43pm
(Views 24hrs)Trending Newest Topics
Planet Earth Tonight 122
Reclaimed floorboards needed. 72
boom 41
Clocks go Forward 10
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Sat 6:00am
Sunset Sat 6:35pm
Local Time Sat 9:52pm
WikiWirral Can . . . .