Welcome to WikiWirral, sharing is what we do best.
Forum Stats
12354 Members
65 Forums
73357 Topics
990694 Posts
17 posts in the last 24hrs
Max Online: 7831 @ 8th Apr 2013 4:18pm
Who's Online - Click Me
70 registered (alan128, 12 invisible), 1267 Guests and 331 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


(Views 7days)This Weeks Most Read
Captain Toni's text message annoyances 529
Tam O'Shanter Urban Farm Fun Day 6th August 487
Tunnel Flyovers Part 1 449
Flood and storm warning 400
Granny Pods 370
Who is number 13? 329
Broken lawnmower 311
Clutch Problem 259
Norman Thelwell -Artist 233
Mike Fitzpatrick - Roofer. any good? 199
New General Forums
Acid attacks plague London, Whats really going on
by snowhite
19th Jul 2017 11:47am
Granny Pods
by granny
17th Jul 2017 7:53pm
WASPI website, pension complaints templates 50's
by Longnails
15th Jul 2017 3:48pm
Hoylake Golf Resort
by Excoriator
6th Jul 2017 5:52pm
New Wirral History
Norman Thelwell -Artist
by granny
18th Jul 2017 10:19am
Tunnel Flyovers Part 1
by Norton
15th Jul 2017 5:40pm
Where was St Catherine/Catharine Street Higher Tra
by derekdwc
11th Jul 2017 10:19pm
QE2 Visit September 1995
by Norton
10th Jul 2017 10:33pm
Wilfred Owen
by Fireblade
7th Jul 2017 8:58pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Disney Magic
Umbrellas Liverpool
Topic Replies
Insurance Scam AKA Why I Have A Dashcam
by diggingdeeper
7 minutes 20 seconds ago
Rising crime?
by Excoriator
32 minutes 49 seconds ago
Clutch Problem
by cools
38 minutes 44 seconds ago
Nigel and Jacob
by Near_Oval
Today at 07:40 AM
Police Cars South Wirral Direction
by Excoriator
Yesterday at 11:41 PM
Missing Cat. CH41
by RUDEBOX
Yesterday at 02:16 PM
Looking for Joyce Randles and family
by Gibbo
Yesterday at 01:10 PM
Granny Pods
by venice
Yesterday at 01:32 AM
Pensions
by diggingdeeper
19th Jul 2017 10:19pm
July
M Tu W Th F Sa Su
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Tam O'Shanter Urban Farm Fun Day 6th August
by RUDEBOX
18th Jul 2017 9:31pm
charity fundraiser
by Dilly
16th Jul 2017 6:47pm
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1016199 - 5th Aug 2016 12:16am Trams through Birkenhead tunnel
mikeeb Offline

Wise One

Registered: 8th Oct 2013
Posts: 795
Loc: birkenhead
Why was it actually abandoned?
The tunnel was designed for tram use
Birkenhead was against it because of the ferry but that doesn't make sense. Did Birkenhead control the ferry?
They controlled a lot of trams so would have benefited
I know Wallasey, Bootle and the trains were not happy but who actually put the spanner in the works?

"As you can see, the Tunnel is circular. The roadway occupies the top half. The bottom was intended to be for a train or electric tramway, but that never happened."


Edited by mikeeb (5th Aug 2016 12:21am)

Top
Google Ads
#1016239 - 5th Aug 2016 12:55pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
MikeT Online   content
Smartchild

Registered: 23rd Apr 2010
Posts: 563
Loc: Canary Islands
I've been in the bit under the roadway (the bottom half). It's full of pipes and wires but could be turned into a second deck or a railway line.

Top
#1016248 - 5th Aug 2016 2:52pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
Originally Posted By: mikeeb
Why was it actually abandoned?
The tunnel was designed for tram use
Birkenhead was against it because of the ferry but that doesn't make sense. Did Birkenhead control the ferry?
They controlled a lot of trams so would have benefited
I know Wallasey, Bootle and the trains were not happy but who actually put the spanner in the works?


I don't know why the trams never ran: possibly Liverpool and Birkenhead couldn't reach agreement.
The ferry was always the Birkenhead ferry, from when the initial charter was granted to the priory by Edward 3rd. in 1330. The ferry was eventually taken over by Birkenhead Corporation in 1858.
_________________________
Carpe diem.

Top
#1016255 - 5th Aug 2016 3:35pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
mikeeb Offline

Wise One

Registered: 8th Oct 2013
Posts: 795
Loc: birkenhead
I cannot seem to find a definitive answer
Maybe it wasn't worth it financially, I just don't know

Top
#1016256 - 5th Aug 2016 3:55pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7927
Loc: tranmere
There's no mention of tramcars running or intending to run through the Queensway tunnel in any of the papers I am able to search, however there's plenty on Motor Buses providing the service, of course with the usual objections,

Snippet from 1939,


Attachments: Viewing Permissions May Apply. Click Me
bus1.PNG

bus2.PNG


_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

Top
#1016259 - 5th Aug 2016 4:11pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
mikeeb Offline

Wise One

Registered: 8th Oct 2013
Posts: 795
Loc: birkenhead
Hmmm, Birkenhead were objecting to buses as well
Nice find Bert
From what I read they were still disputing the tram issue whilst it was getting built, but just continued building it that way because they had already started
You would think company's on both sides of the river would have been all over any new venture.
were they more tightly regulated back then?

Top
#1016261 - 5th Aug 2016 4:48pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7927
Loc: tranmere
Regardless of whatever the regulations were back then, any form of public transport travelling through the tunnel would have raised objections from the ferries and the railways.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

Top
#1016268 - 5th Aug 2016 5:47pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: bert1]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
The original plan was to have trams. Quote from "The Story of the Mersey Tunnel, officially named Queensway"

"In this, the original scheme, through tram services between Liverpool and Cheshire boroughs were a prominent feature. It was for that reason that the great diameter of 44 ft. was provided for throughout, except in the branches, a diameter sufficient for four lanes of traffic on the upper deck and two sets of tram rails on the lower".

The tram plan seems to have been abandoned at the same time as the Wallasey and Bootle tunnels were. there is a vague reference to "Birkenhead's opposition to trams" but I cant find any reason for that, although it could have been because of the effect on the Birkenhead owned ferry.

_________________________
Carpe diem.

Top
#1016269 - 5th Aug 2016 5:53pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
mikeeb Offline

Wise One

Registered: 8th Oct 2013
Posts: 795
Loc: birkenhead
I suppose so, Wallasey and Bootle out of the running would just add more opposition

Top
#1016274 - 5th Aug 2016 7:19pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
mikeeb Offline

Wise One

Registered: 8th Oct 2013
Posts: 795
Loc: birkenhead
Here it is
I have read through the article again here

"One was opposition from Birkenhead who wanted to protect their Ferries, another was that the government had said that they would reduce their contribution if a tramway was laid. The Tunnel would however still be excavated and built for most of it's length with a massive space under the roadway designed for the Tramway."

So it was down to money. When isn't it? grin

Top
#1016300 - 6th Aug 2016 8:07am Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7927
Loc: tranmere
Came across this 1933 report,

Did they cover the road surface with these tiles and how long was it before they recovered with an alternative surface?


Attachments: Viewing Permissions May Apply. Click Me
tunnel tiles.PNG


_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

Top
#1016314 - 6th Aug 2016 10:22am Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: bert1]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
Yes, the cast iron tiles were about a foot square with a studded surface and they were set in a bitumen compound. I don't know when they were tarmac'd over. There's a good picture of them being laid in the book "The Story of the Mersey Tunnel, officially named Queensway". You used to be able to buy this book for 5 at the tunnel HQ. It's a facsimile reprint of the original which was published for the opening in 1934. It's the most comprehensive book on the tunnel that I know.
_________________________
Carpe diem.

Top
#1016315 - 6th Aug 2016 10:35am Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
mikeeb Offline

Wise One

Registered: 8th Oct 2013
Posts: 795
Loc: birkenhead
It would seem that it was an experiment and only used in sections
1935 communication
" 25. Captain STRICKLAND
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received any reports on the success or otherwise of the experimental iron roads, particularly with regard to the safe use of them by solo motor cyclists?


The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Hore-Belisha)

The reports which I have received on the experimental lengths of iron paving laid in different localities indicate that the material is generally satisfactory, but I shall be very pleased to receive any reports from motor cyclists, who have not made any special representations to me, or, indeed, from any other road users.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1935/jul/03/experimental-iron-paving

Top
#1016317 - 6th Aug 2016 11:04am Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: mikeeb]
Excoriator Online   content
Guardian

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 936
Loc: wirral
I guess this space is now stuffed with pipes and cables and no longer usable for transport.

I always thought travellators would be a good way of putting it to use. Expensive perhaps, but think of the advertising space it would provide. I'm sure that would pull in a good income. They seem slow, but gain by the fact that you don't have to wait for the next tram/bus/ train so they end up being a surprisingly good way of moving large numbers of people quickly.

Top
#1016320 - 6th Aug 2016 1:30pm Re: Trams through Birkenhead tunnel [Re: chriskay]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7927
Loc: tranmere
Originally Posted By: chriskay
Yes, the cast iron tiles were about a foot square with a studded surface and they were set in a bitumen compound. I don't know when they were tarmac'd over. There's a good picture of them being laid in the book "The Story of the Mersey Tunnel, officially named Queensway". You used to be able to buy this book for 5 at the tunnel HQ. It's a facsimile reprint of the original which was published for the opening in 1934. It's the most comprehensive book on the tunnel that I know.


Thanks Chris.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Mark 
Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Insurance Scam AKA Why I Have A Dashcam
by diggingdeeper
4 minutes 41 seconds ago
Rising crime?
by Excoriator
Today at 12:34 AM
Missing Cat. CH41
by RUDEBOX
Yesterday at 02:16 PM
Looking for Joyce Randles and family
by Gibbo
Yesterday at 01:10 PM
Nigel and Jacob
by granny
Yesterday at 11:54 AM
For Sale & Free
XBox One Games
by rhoobarb2002
19th Jul 2017 11:02am
Gardener Oxton Area
by Guzzler
18th Jul 2017 7:46pm
High end gaming pc
by brady
16th Jul 2017 6:36pm
Spanners and hand tools
by anniebo28
16th Jul 2017 3:36pm
Candy washing machine
by conan
15th Jul 2017 12:14pm
Featured Member
Registered: 23rd Feb 2016
Posts: 9
Newest Members
Trulyscrumpcious, Mrsilent, Drew67, ziggurat1, Baldygardener
12354 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Looking for Joyce Randles and family
by Gibbo
Yesterday at 01:10 PM
Tam O'Shanter Urban Farm Fun Day 6th August
by Greenwood
17th Jul 2017 10:11pm
Broken lawnmower
by cools
17th Jul 2017 11:42am
Mike Fitzpatrick - Roofer. any good?
by yr20405
15th Jul 2017 12:14am
Published Author & Freelance Writer Seeks Work
by Jobneeded67
14th Jul 2017 3:12pm
News : New Topics
Insurance Scam AKA Why I Have A Dashcam
by diggingdeeper
4 minutes 41 seconds ago
Rising crime?
by Excoriator
Today at 12:34 AM
Nigel and Jacob
by granny
Yesterday at 11:54 AM
Police Cars South Wirral Direction
by fish5133
19th Jul 2017 11:12pm
Canadian Ice Cream
by granny
19th Jul 2017 8:52pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Missing Cat. CH41
by RUDEBOX
Yesterday at 02:16 PM
Clutch Problem
by fish5133
19th Jul 2017 11:38pm
Who is number 13?
by Norton
16th Jul 2017 6:59pm
Captain Toni's text message annoyances
by DavidB
15th Jul 2017 9:38pm
Is The Medical World Missing The Point
by diggingdeeper
13th Jul 2017 6:58pm
(Views 24hrs)Trending Newest Topics
Rising crime? 75
Insurance Scam AKA Why I Have A Dashcam 0
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Fri 5:11am
Sunset Fri 9:25pm
Local Time Fri 3:36pm
WikiWirral Can . . . .