Not sure if this has been done before but just wondering why Cross Hill, Thingwall, is so called.. Could there be a burial ground under the hump ?
The name would indicate something to do with Christianity.

Some good stuff here
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2009/apr/04/secret-britain-vikings-wirral-liverpool

Don't know about a burial ground, Granny, but somewhere on this site is a picture of the vast reservoir under the hill before it was filled with water.

According to the Tithe map of about 1849, the plot name was Cross Hill and this was divided by Barnston Road . I don't know if this has any religious significance , but the plot on the opposite side of the road to the reservoir was supposedly the site of the Viking 'Thing' or meeting place that gave Thingwall its name.

It would be great to think that there was at some point a cross there marking the meeting place, which gave the name to the location; but that's just conjecture - or wishful thinking!

Thanks for all your input everyone. I can't find the info you mention Chris.
The idea that the names Red Hill (or Blood Hill as Prof. Harding thinks it was called) and Rest Hill Road, both in Storeton, have their link to the Vikings is interesting.
That gave the idea to the possibility that they may have had some sort of structure as a centre point of the 'Assembly Field' mainly as they turned towards Christianity after they arrived here in Britain.
Maybe the idea of Cross Hill being a burial mound, is a bit far fetched but the name would have to lend itself to something and there aren't any cross roads there.

Ha ha Chris... found it. Bottom of the page
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums...wall_Poll_Hill_Reservoir.html#Post472576

Thanks, Granny; well done. I looked but couldn't find it.

As an update to the enquiry of where the name Cross Hill,came from. Here are the words of the 'man' himself.(Harding)

quote ' Cross Hill could certainly have derived from Old Norse kross.'

Just a quick note before we go on a religious trek - the Vikings were NOT so-called Christians - any reference to a Norse cross should be treated as just that - it meant something (possibly deeply) symbolic to them - no doubt - but nowt to do with Jesus.

Another theory - the area is well-known as a natural spring water centre with around 20-odd springs in the immediate area - maybe you had to Cross numerous little streams - left field I know ;-)

Maybe the religious trek does not fall into everyone's wishes, but the evidence that they were Christians is pretty widespread.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...a_1D4qwPK_5gegL&ved=0CCIQsAQ#imgrc=_

Crosses were placed on hills.

With the intriguing thoughts of Erainn on the stones at Arrowe Park, which is only a mile down the road from Thingwall, maybe there could be a connection. Maybe they had camps as they moved about the area a lot, and considering the Assembly Field was on Cross Hill, we know they were fairly local.

Also.... according to the following article :

http://viking.no/e/life/echristianity.htm

The Norwegians had met the "Cross-men" when they landed in England and Ireland. A lot of Scandinavians settled in Britain and you can still find gravestones in England with both the Thor's hammer and a cross .

Granny and I won't ever see eye to eye over religion but we respect each others view. I also concur about the Vikings and Christianity. The Viking Age was a period of considerable religious change in Scandinavia. Part of the popular image of the Vikings is that they were all pagans, with a hatred of the Christian Church, but this view is very misleading. It is true that almost the entire population of Scandinavia was pagan at the beginning of the Viking Age, but the Vikings had many gods, and it was no problem for them to accept the Christian god alongside their own. Most scholars today believe that Viking attacks on Christian churches had nothing to do with religion, but more to do with the fact that monasteries were typically both wealthy and poorly defended, making them an easy target for plunder. It is also widely accepted that Christianity was introduced into their homelands between the 11th and 12th centuries.

The cross symbol appears many times in history long before Christianity was dreamt up.

On the Tithe maps there are three distinct plots of land in the vicinity called Cross Hill. the majority of the land so named is on the reservoir side of the road, there is also a plot called Cross Hay in the middle of them.

This question is not due to any beliefs on my part, Casper, it is purely as trying to find the possibility that Cross Hill was a name given to the meeting place due to a certain significance adopted at the time and if the name could be dated back to the Viking period. You say that Christianity was introduced to their homelands in 11th/12th centuries, after 995 ad, it was only a matter of 5 years to the 11th century. Crosses from that time in their homelands also had carvings of Jesus on them, and at the moment I am unable to find those to show you.
So it could be connected to religion or as DD says it could be pre- Christian roots. Never the less, could there have been a cross on the hill to give the name Cross Hill? (or then Kross) I have been trying to find the earliest date for the name of Cross Hill, but so far have been unable to come up with anything previous to 1800's. as atw1960 pointed out.

Probably one of the better known crosses depicting both pagan and christian beliefs combined is the Gosforth cross in Cumbria. This may be the one Granny is thinking of.

Gosforth was Anglo Saxon.

The Jelling Stones are the ones I think. Some about it on Wikipedia. King Harald died about 985 AD. Nice picture of stone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelling_stones

I appreciate that the Gosforth Cross is Anglo Saxon, the Anglo-Saxon period denotes the period of British history between about 450 and 1066 and includes the period of occupancy by the Vikings or so I believe. I thought you may have been refering to this cross as it is carved with Christian symbolism, including a depiction of the crucifixion of Christ. The cross also has Scandinavian images identified as the god Víðarr tearing the jaws of FenrirThor's failed attempt to catch Jörmungandr, the Midgard Serpent. The god Heimdallr holding his horn. Loki bound with his wife Sigyn protecting him. I thought the info may have been pertinent to your point. No worries if not. I had not seen the stones you mentioned, thanks for that.

Sorry Gee, should have acknowledged the Gosforth Stone. It is very interesting and I didn't realise the periods crossed over as such. Beautifully crafted stones aren't they ? How can they tell the difference between Viking and Saxon ?

what is this ?

http://assemblyfield.blogspot.co.uk/p/the-cross-hill-recordings.html

No worries Granny, it's easy to forget that the name of a period can also refer to its people too. There will always be a crossover period as there is with iron age and stone age for example. The carvings are brilliant, I took a keen amature intrest in such things after being stationed in Belize and visiting virgin Mayan digs and seeing their carvings. I believe the differences between Viking and Saxon is dependent on the type and context of the carvings bearing in mind that a saxon stone mason may have been 'employed' by a viking to make a carving for him and vice verca.

Fascinating ! It is with wonder how beautiful these many artifacts were made.

My belief continues to flow in the direction of Cross Hill being related to 'a cross' whether it be Saxon, Viking or Christian. Mainly due to the article which stated that Vikings were met in England by 'Cross-Men'.
Nearly all place names in this country have a link to ancient roots, and why would the same not apply to Thingwall ? It may have been later, not necessarily to do with Vikings, but still an interesting thought, although never to be proven.

Maybe 'Cross Hay' could throw some light on it.

One other point is the ancient church of St. Decan at Landican.(Llan-tegan’)

Literally, a stones thrown from Cross Hill ,Thingwall , and along the lanes or over the fields as it would have been then. Maybe that could be the connection ?

Landican is an intriguing place, too - recorded in the Domesday book as Landechene; I think the name is also said to have derived from the Welsh for oak - i.e. oak church/Woodchurch. I'm not sure about that, as the Welsh for oak is derwen/derw. Names change quite a lot over the centuries. the Cross Hill name might also come from a market-type meeting cross, to mark the imprtant gathering place. Interesting topic!

Landechene looks as if it's derived from the French for oak: chêne. If the "Lande" part is also from French, that means moor, but I suspect it's from the Welsh for church: "llan".

Have found this article , which puts another translation on the origin of Landican. Even more possible, as the copy posted on the link from the Lancashire and Cheshire, would indicate that Llann Aedhagain was the name used by the writers of Norse Runes in the Isle of Man.

https://keeganfamilytree.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/aedhagain/

"" Seagha’s two sons were Olchobar (O’Shea) and Aedhagain. We know little about this Aedhagain, but he may well have been a prolific priest or maybe even an Irish Saint.

Derry Keighan in Antrim seems to bear his name, as does Landican (Llann Aedhagain) in the Wirral near Liverpool, and Landican in the Isle of Man.""

Unfortunately ,I cannot locate Landican on the Isle of Man map. Can anyone else find it ? Maybe it is close to Tynwald. (Isle of Man's version of Thingwall)

I suppose that both of them could be of Gaelic origin. Having walked along the lanes at Thingwall this am. I think the land would have been more wooded than fields at that period, but never the less, old pathways lead in various directions, one down to Bebington, another which goes across to Landican, which was across the farm fields, but I believe certain residents (new comers) had part of it blocked. Cross Hill is certainly the highest point and if it was open space , could have been the place for any form of ceremony, religious ,Pagan or otherwise.(i.e. apart from the Viking Assembly) Also, I imagine the church at Landican would have held the land in the immediate areas, stretching to a fair distance. Any ideas ?

I would think it likely, that Woodchurch was originally part of Landican, and Holy Cross Church is the site of the original 'lann', not modern day Landican or Thingwall. Especially considering it's obvious antiquity, and the fact that it stands in a curvilinear churchyard.

We tend to think of Landican now as the area around the cemetery, but it probably once covered a much larger area (including Woodchurch).

As to the name Cross Hill, well that is somewhat vexing...

Well hello Ying Yang ! Long time no see, and it's noted you have now extended your 666 posts , you little devil

You could very well be correct and as there is a Saxon wheel cross built into the wall of the chancel, it could indicate that the original building was on the same point, near enough. However, if so, it is still not much more than a mile to Cross Hill, and less to the little hamlet of Landican Village down Landican Lane,(not exactly where the cemetery is) so the possibility is still the same.

I am still of the opinion that due to Llan (Welsh/Celtic) meaning either church/parish or a hamlet in rural habitation, Dican could be Deacon, or as Chris says likely Chene, meaning oak. So we would have Llan de Chene. Village of Oak ,but I don't understand why the Normans would incorporate Welsh and French into a name place. The 'de' was introduced by the French in or soon after 1066.

One other possibility is from decan, which is appears to be used in late 16th century Latin for a chief of a group of ten or another possibility is
quote " Several pages explain the decans very well.. Decans is an ancient word; pre-Egyptian. Believing many gods controlled their lives, Egyptians vainly slipped the word over to their belief of the stars telling them about themselves( astrology ) instead of the stars declaring God's plans and identity to humans, animals, birds and sea creatures ( astronomy )."

I like that possibility.

The Celts (Ketoi)was the name given by the ancient Greeks. So with the connection between ancient Greece and Egypt that explanation could be feasible.
If the name is as old as that, I do not think that any Saint would have been named. St. Tegan is supposedly an ancient Welsh Saint, and hardly mentioned, with translation meaning beautiful or pretty, but my thoughts are with the fact that I don't believe any of them knew about Saints as the first Saint was only canonised in 993AD or a slight possibility of 804AD.
I think all this will have to go to the vote !

In addition bringing us back to the 19th century, I found this which is 'History of the Royal Rock Beagle Hunt'. Give some interesting descriptions of areas , including mentioning a pretty little vale at Barnston named Fiddler's Folly,(maybe that's where the phantom fiddler originates from?) on page 132. I assume that will mean 'the dip' at Barnston. On page 176 it mentions a cottage in Barnston Wood. They are under Landican search.
In the search box, put your own place of interest, something may come up .

https://archive.org/stream/historyofroyalro00cain#page/n5/mode/2up

I spotted Fiddler's Folly on the maps which intrigued me, its close to some rough lands (plot called "Rough and Pits in Cross Hill") so "folly" might just mean "mistake" as in someone purchasing/leasing unusable land.

Fiddler's Ferry name is thought to come from corruption of Adam Le Vicleur surname but I doubt if there is a connection but it shows how much pronunciation and spelling can change over the years.

...I think you'll find my visits ceased around Halloween, granny, and I then went 'underground', so to speak. But only to escape the cold! It's springtime now (a time of resurrection) and I see you're resurrecting the spectre of your Fiddler's Folly thread.

I may have to unleash the hounds!

Ha ! Pleased you are back up again with the sun shining on you. Don't keep disappearing like that, we worry in case you've fossilized.

With regard to Fiddler's Folly, I have a book in front of me, Tingvelle, by Greg Dawson. There is a page of maps with field names going back to 1850. Although I can't find Fiddler's Folly , there is a field named 'Folly' behind the Cross Hill reservoir, which will be off Gills Lane. Owned by R. Vyner from Thingwall Farm (which was leased) So still looking for the darned Fiddler . Maybe Vyner was the Fiddler !

Next to Folly field at road level and now on the reservoir land and the corner of Gills Lane/Barnston Road is Rowens and Pits, also owned by R Vyner. Rough and Pits does not appear on the maps which I look at, DD and I have not been able to spot it anywhere else either.

There are some lovely field names; 'money pit', 'two little loaves', 'two big loaves','whelpers' 'shocking dale' and 'the mistake' to name but a few.

Lovely

Fiddler's Folly is Plot 100, on the south of Thingwall Common.

Rough and Pits is plot 29 on the south of cross hill (western side of road).

Both are in Barnston Dale

That would explain. This map only goes up to the Thingwall/Barnston boundary. Thereis a plot on the fringe of the boundary called Folly Croft, and three other plots named as 'Croft' all next to each other, also right on edge of Thingwall side the boundary. R Vyner owns those too. I imagine they might all be in the same location where Murrayfields is now.

Thanks DD.

Another interesting bit of information is cannon balls, used in the Civil War, were found in Barnston Dale a number of years ago.

I love this area, probably because it is relatively unspoilt and history of the land is easier to follow.

The first edition 1 inch to the mile O/S map of Wirral shows Fiddler's Folly quite clearly, granny. Not sure exactly when the area was surveyed (probably 1830's - 40's). But whatever the 'Folly' was, it was probably there pre-1850's.

I think you will find that those pesky fiddle players were always trying to challenge me to a contest...

...'The Folly' is also featured on Bryant's Map of 1831.

Thanks for that Ying Yang. I will do wee search.

I wonder which is the earliest map which shows them.

The map in Greg Dawson's book, which I was looking at, doesn't seem to line up so perfectly (that might be me) and it shows three areas named as Cross Hill all with different boundaries.

Will take more time to study when the sun goes behind the clouds in a day or two.

The pesky Phantom Fiddler is next due to appear New Year 2017...

No need to look far for your 'wee' search, granny. There are plenty on Wiki who will happily take the pish...

After reading Granny's mention of Thingwall, I was inspired to dig out Greg Dawson's book "Tingvelle". On the map (1850) on page 93, on the right hand side is a list of who owns the fields, the ones marked 11 belong to Fiddler's Folly. I've had the book for some time, I bought it years ago when I was seriously into Genealogy a few of my ancestors are mentioned in it. It's a cracking read anyway.

Locomotive, you're right, it's a brilliant book and full to bursting with the local information. I've had mine about 15 year and bring it out again and again, there's always something new to find.

If anyone should be interested in a copy, as I'm not sure if they are still in print, there is one for sale on ebay at the moment.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tingvelle..._DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5418cd2204

granny. have just a copy off ebay, thanks for the info

Goody ! Hope you enjoy it ,Jimbob

And now I've bought a copy from Amazon

Cool ! Hope you find it interesting, Chris.

With thanks to the gentleman who I have just mentioned on the Woodchurch Stone thread, he also gave some more information about Thingwall.

There were two wells on the farm down Thingwall Lane , there was a path behind Barnston Road by Woodbank, leading to the Irby Mill, and as it crossed Mill Fields, that is where Mill Fields got the name from.

When the foundations were dug for the Basset Hound, there was a wattle and daub building of some sort unearthed and another well. It was filled in and everything was left things in place.

He gave me a wonderful description of characters and names and the tricks they got up to. As some of these people probably have relatives around and about, I feel it unethical to relate such things.

There was also a mortuary behind Thingwall Open Air Children's
Hospital on which Murrayfields now stands, where he used to catch rabbits because they had so little food it was the only way to survive.

My one wish is to have a contraption to record what he says. My memory is not as good as it was, and nowhere near as good as his is, even now.

This doesn't relate to Cross Hill, but I had to put it somewhere at the moment.

Looking at the map of Thingwall, I think he may have meant Thingwall Mill, rather than Irby Mill. There again, who am I to argue with such a man ?

Granny; you should have a look on e-bay and get a little portable recorder.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f..._nkw=digital+voice+recorder&_sacat=0

Thanks Chris. Being a total failure with technical stuff, I usually pay no interest and consequently had no idea these things existed. Just what the doctor ordered.

To be honest, granny, I've no idea if the cheapos are any good. If it were me, I'd try bidding on one with a recognised name: Philips, Olympus, Sony etc. Something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Philips-V..._DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aadacb1f6

I agree, I've got a chinese one and its a nightmare to use. Every-time you stop and start recording it opens a new file (ie no pause facility), every button is multifunctional, some things you have to go through the menu, the screen uses a lot of indeterminate symbols which makes translating proto-Elamite tablets look easy etc etc.

That's a good idea, Chris. Will have a search later as there is still a day left on that one.

If you have your book 'Tingvelle' handy, you might like to see the map of field names.

If you look for 'Thing Well'. That is on the land of Thingwall Farm and where he said there was a 'well' x 2 . This is also of interest in relation to the old name of 'Tingvelle',
as 'velle' on it's own from Latin, means 'wish, want, be willing'.
Do you see what I'm getting at ? Maybe this is the origin of how the name 'Wishing Well' came to be ? (not necessarily from Thingwall, before someone reads things differently)

Just as a matter of interest, what's left of Thingwall Farm is a heap of rubble buried under a mass of wild growth.

Back her again, after 5 yrs. Blimey , doesn't time fly ? Some of this I may have posted before , but this might be easier to follow.



The Celts came across Europe from Greece and other places and inhabited Wales.

Llan is Celtic .

Brittonic was the ancient Celtic language spoken by Brittons.

The word Llan is a Gaelic word meaning ' wood'


The word 'Dican' originates in Egypt and referred to 36 groups of stars and used in Ancient Egyptian Astronomy. Dicans were used until after the Renaissance in connection with astrology and magic. .

In Greece they used the word for sidereal star clock beginning by at least the 9th or 10th Dynasty (c. 2100 BCE).

Sardican was in Greece and the Sar - Dican was a name meaning "servant", "waiting-man", "minister", or "messenger" and later Sar- Dican Cannons



The Romans arrived and stayed for about 400 yrs,

The Anglo Saxons arrived in the 4th century but the Romans beat them back. The Romans left in the 5th century, and more Anglo Saxons came to Britain.

The Anglo Saxons were not Christian , they were pagan, but there had been many Christians in Roman Britain.

The Anglo Saxons did not settle in Wales and the Christians there continued their own religion .

Over time the Anglo Saxons converted to Christianity.

The Vikings first invaded in 793 AD.


So..... firstly, I think 'Cross Hill' , Thingwall was in use as a religious meeting place before the Vikings arrived, as the Saxons didn't necessarily have buildings for meetings, they were in the open as Jesus had done .

The Christians came out of Wales

I believe 'Landican' came from the Welsh /Gaelic language for a deacon or magic man in the wood as you will see from the map that the Brittonic speaking community extended out of Wales as far as Cumbria.

The connection of Dican, ( Astrology ) to the Church would have come from the bible, as astrology was paramount, and the Jews had arrived in Canaan from Egypt after living in Egypt for 400 yrs. so no doubt , they too were mostly following paganism at the time . Hence the beginning of the teachings of morals and ethics as given by Moses to gather the people together .

Many people believe the good book is related to magic and astronomy with all it's so called mysteries and codes . Trouble is, even the greatest of brains can't figure it out !

Llan-Dican Magician in the wood .. or Deacon in the Wood which has come from Wales and the Brittanic language via the Celts and traditions relating back to Greece, Egypt and astronomy .


Will that do ?

The Brittonic-speaking community around the sixth century.

Forgot the map



https://gazeta.gal/web/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/9_35-365x365.jpg

Above I mentioned that in Gaelic 'Llan ' meant 'wood, however according to The Doomesday Book, Llan in Celtic as a 'place name' meant 'church'

Celtic Terms: 800BC - 400 AD


Aber: River mouth or ford
Afon: River
Allt: Hillside
Avon; Esk; Eye; Dee: River
Bedd: Grave
Bre-; Drum; Don: Hill
Caer: Fortress
Capel: Chapel
Carnedd: Cairn
Castell: Castle
Coed: Wood
Cwm: Valley
Dinas: City
Glan: River Bank
Hamps: Dry stream in Summer
Llan: Church
Llyn: Lake
Mawr: Big
Môr: Sea
Mynydd: Mountain
Os: God
Pant: Hollow
Pen; Bryn: Hill; Head
Plas: Palace
Pont; Bont: Bridge
Porth: Harbour
Tre: Hamlet; Village; Town
Treath: Beach
Ynys: Island

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/places.html

Going back to the early 1800's there are various registers relating to Thomas Wilson from Llandican in Cheshire. So the name must have changed from 2 x L's to 1 x L at some point.

It is generally though that Woodchurch was part of Landican and Landican Church was at Woodchurch.

Woodchurch wasn't part of the Wirral Hundred but Landican was.

Woodchurch wasn't in the Doomsday book, Landican was.

Going back to 17th century maps Landican only had one L but undoubtedly when Wirral was run by the druids it had two Ls.

There have been a number of spellings over time including Landechene as it was at the time of the Doomsday book.

Landechene at the time of the Doomsday book, was more than likely attributed to the French or Norman . It is said that although Landechene was named in the Doomsday Book, implying oaken church, it is thought the name originally derived from the Welsh.. Llan-diacon 'church of the deacon' .

I would have thought that Landican would have been a more likely setting for such, a ) being nearer to a river or brook, b) linking up to all the ancient pathways through Thingwall going to Storeton and beyond down to Bebington . (which it has been said was the route the Vikings took when coming up to Cross Hill for their Assembly )

Why it might be there in the first place is a big question mark but Landican was classed as a township. A township is a small village with a church so water (river) was of importance .

I can't see that the Anglo-Saxons would give it such a name, or even a church, although one of the earliest crosses recently discovered dates to the 650-680 AD. (link)
One of the Popes (link) sent Augustin to England in 597 AD to convert the pagan Anglo-Saxon Kings.

The Trumpington Cross

https://www.cam.ac.uk/trumpingtoncross

I am more than ever convinced that 'Cross Hill' was much older by name than when a) the Saxons arrived and b) the Vikings arrived..... but you don't have to agree.

A township is defined by having had a town council or a parish council acting as a town council, it was a devolvement of powers (usually tax based) from either the County Council (Shire) or the Parish Council. A township does not have to have had a church, it was invariably part of a larger Parish.

Township came from =ville. (Latin) and has changed it meaning over the millennia , also it meant different things in different countries.

I' m not sure that at the time of the Doomsday Book was compiled or before, there were any Town Councils or Parish Councils ! I could be wrong.
However, if there was a church at that time , there would almost certainly have been the beginnings of some sort of control or dominance over the people.

Cross Hill of which there are many, not necessarily named Cross Hill but many hills with crosses on, as one would expect the followers of Christianity would have paid homage and were often sites for pilgrimages.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...BfMQsAR6BAgLEAE&biw=1080&bih=508

'Ter Hill Cross' is quite famous for depicting an ancient monastic route, and including Mount Misery Cross. (the clue is in the name ! )

Churches and Monasteries and other places of Christian religion have long been built on hills.

It would be interesting to find the entry of Landechene in the Doomsday Book, but so far all I can find is that it was held by William Malbank.
Thingwall is also in the Doomsday Book , held by William Malbank.

The fact that Landican and Thingwall are so close with footpaths linking across the field, and much closer that Woodchurch I still have the opinion that Landican Village is where it was relating to.
Holy Cross at Woodchurch may have been a subsequent church after the Welsh (Brittonic speaking community) had gone.

I'll let you translate ....

Here you go, Woodchurch was part of the Manor of Landican https://www.holycrosswoodchurch.uk/history

Well I can go along with the fact that Woodchurch could have been a Druid burial place, but Druids were not generally Christians.

Who were the Druids (magic men !)
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/Druids/


It says in the link that Woodchurch formed a 'part' of the Manor of Landican in 1086 . Woodchurch was recorded as Wude Church in 1093

The translation of the Doomsday entry for Landican is as follows :

Landican.
Aescwulf held it; he was a free man. 7 hides paying tax.Land for 8 ploughs.In lordship 1; a priest , 9 villagers , 7 smallholders and 4 Frenchmen with 5 ploughs between them.
Value before 1066 50s ; now 40s; found waste.

Thingwall
Durand holds from him (William Malbank) Winterlet held it ; he was a free man . 1 hide paying tax . Land for 2 ploughs. In lordship 1; 2 slaves

The largest of Wirral settlements was in order :
1)eastham was largest settlement
2)upton
3)saughall
4)landican

Now the interesting bit. Landican was obviously quite important and it has been recorded that ' Landican like Thingwall was a well watered village. There were 2 wells and 2 springs.' !

That to me indicates that Landican then was where Landican village is today. Churches would have a well or be near a spring near, and communities needed them too. Sacred springs were part of the Christian rituals .
Woodchurch, in my opinion, was possibly as stated a Druid burial place, however, from what I can make out, a) the Romans tried to get rid of the Druid's and their pagan rituals such as sacrifice, and b)the Britons did not get along with the Druids.

The last point is; if Landcian was the original hamlet/settlement with a Christian Priest , bordering Thingwall, being the highest point for Cross Hill, it makes sense . Also, why would the Vikings make their way to Cross Hill if it wasn't of any importance ?

I have probably missed loads of different points out on this, but don't want to confuse the issue more than necessary. Hahaha !
Oh yes, William the Conqueror invaded Wales , raided forests for oak trees and wood in general, chased out the pagans and I wonder if it was the Doomsday survey completed in parts of England and Wales by 1086, has seen Norman influence and Woodchurch made into a church later but before 1093 . It clearly says the Doomsday survey on Landican and Thingwall in land value was in 1066 and at the time of the survey the price had dropped.

Not looked at levels on an old os but was there a Hill there. The cross hill reservoir slopes look man made. only a slight incline in the road to Barnston.

Arrowe brook starts in Landican and passes through Woodchurch on its way to the Birket. In the past there were a number of tributaries roughly heading towards (from?) Holy Cross. If you go into the Woodland directly in front of the Hospital you can find traces of a brooklet there, the same for the Woodland in front of the large car park on the left of the Hospital.

There was no shortage of water around Woodchurch however much of the water flow was altered in the early 19th century when Arrowe Hall was built and the surrounding land (now Arrowe Park) was extensively landscaped especially as they were looking for water for the lake, fountains and waterfalls.

The Fender also originates in Landican via Prenton Brook.

What would be interesting to know, is where was Arrowe Village? Probably the top or bottom of Arrowe Brook Road? It is interesting to note that Arrowe Hill has moved to half-way down the north side of Arrowe Brook Road, it used to be on the other side of Arrowe Park Road. Arrowe Village would give us a better idea of the extent of Landican.

Not from the other side though, Fish, where the old path leads from Thingwall to Storeton Woods (now across Holmwood Drive) . It is like an embankment along that stretch of path.
It would be interesting to see levels from OS maps for Thingwall, Landican, Cross Hill, Woodchurch.
I know Thingwall is said to be one of the highest points on Wirral.
Yesterday , I noticed the incline from Asda at Woodchurch (roughly opposite Landican Lane) up to the traffic lights at Arrowe Park. It's quite steep.

There were also three brooks in Thingwall. Landican Brook, Dale End Brook, and Thingwall Brook. They all fed into Prenton Brook.
Dale End Brook is the ancient boundary between Thingwall and Barnston, likewise Landican Brook is the ancient boundary between Landcan and Thingwall.
There is (or was) a Saxon Bridge crossing the river at Landican. It was on one of the maps and I know someone who found it, (eventually) about 15 yrs ago.

Water ,water everywhere, but 2 wells and 2 springs in Landican village has to be of some importance with regard the settlement , the priest, and the larger than average community mentioned in the DB. Originally priests just used the homestead for their gatherings , there weren't so many people to warrant a 'church' as such.

No mention of Arrowe anywhere that I can find.

One interesting point I have just read on Wikipedia about 'Wirral' it says before the Romans, Wirral was inhabited by a Celtic tribe, traders came from Gaul and the Mediterranean . Then it says " Evidence of Celtic Christianity from the 5th or 6th centuries is shown in the originally circular shape of churchyards at Bromborough, Woodchurch and elsewhere, and also in the dedication of the parish church at Wallasey to a 4th-century bishop, Hilary of Poitiers"

That would mean the circular shape at Woodchurch might have been Celtic Christian rather than Druid.

( Interesting that Wallasey was really small in the Doomsday survey. 1 villager, 1 smallholder, 1 Frenchman and 2 ploughmen)

Granny,

If it helps with the Saxon Bridge,

https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/675088/2.html

Thanks Bert 1, will have a look later.

When I said someone I know found the Saxon bridge, he said it was really only remnants of it, like a bit of a post. It was shown on a Wirral Council map, which I did see but have not seen the same map since.

One side of the Saxon bridge was completely blocked up when we went in 2015.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3571323,-3.0648615,71m/data=!3m1!1e3

Can't see those images DD, because I no longer pay my rent.

Is this the footbridge, Stanley Wood. ? Repaired in 2017

Scroll down

https://briansimpsons.wordpress.com/category/bridges/

Just for you @granny ...

Oh ! I thought it was a titchy wooden thing, that was no longer. That's quite big. They must have picked up some of the building techniques from the Romans. How do we know it wasn't Roman ?

Thank you.

Parts of it are probably Roman, it’s by part of the Roman Road but it probably replaced an earlier bridge which could have been wooden.

Although its position looks like it was moved over when the railway was built, it wasn’t.

The Roman Road was the reason I mentioned it with a question mark.

A few more bits and bobs that might be of interest.

There were three main tribes in Wales One named DECEANGLI also named DECEANGI (Pronounced DECANI by a Welshman ,, (Llan- Decani ?)

Named as 'Landechene' in the Doomsday Book is clearly a Norman interpretation of an Anglo Saxon or Old English named place .

The DECEANGI tribe were iron age Germano- Celts who invaded around 100 BC and they lived in Wales , Anglesey and West Cheshire at some point their in history. Anglesey was the stronghold of the Druids and the Romans on reaching Anglesey the final conquest, slaughtered the Druids.

The Deceangni tribe mined for lead and silver .
.
"In about AD 49, Publius Ostorius Scapula, governor of Britain (47–52), marched against the Deceangli. Actually, Tacitus, who reports the event in his Annals, calls the tribe the Decangi, but inscriptions on lead ingots suggest it should really be Deceangli "

Lead ingot at The British Museum



From the middle of the seventh century the pagan Anglo-Saxons were converted to Christianity
The Vikings invaded Brittain at the very end of the 8th century.
That is the reason I am convinced Landican of today had it's own settlement with a Christian priest and 2 wells and 2 springs which were always connected in close proximity to the Christian meeting places having spiritual connections .

Then we come to the Viking god Odin. An important god in Germanic paganism .

In wider Germanic mythology and paganism, the god was known in Old English as Wōden, in Old Saxon as Wōdan, in Old Dutch as Wuodan and in Old High German as Wuotan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin

Although not recorded in the Domesday Book, Woodchurch was recorded as Wude Church in 1093 .

That sounds very much like 'wooden church ' , so the site could have been named after the Viking god Odin and used for Pagan rituals prior to the Norman invasion , and maybe it was a disused Druid circular burial place, but I doubt a Christian meeting place would have been allowed to practice on a pagan site. Absolute no, no !
Thors Stone at Thurstaston and Cross Hill at Thingwall, to me seems there has been a cross over from paganism to Christianity over a period of time involving both Anglo Saxons and Vikings and each period has left behind their own pagan rituals and moved to Christianity . When the Normans arrived they had to decipher which was which, and used their own influential terms and ideology to form a new direction for all people .

We are a bit of a mixed bag really. These are only my thoughts and there is no reason why anyone should take any notice, but one day some more might turn up and send us spinning in another direction.
And all of this because I decided to clear my bookcase !

One more point of interest :
Aescwulf , the free man in Landican in the Doomsday Survey , was obviously an important Saxon leader :

Ring found :
Steyning: found during excavation, 1989; now in Worthing
Museum; gold; c. 20 mm diameter; 9th century; Old English; cescwvlf mec ah,
'Aescwulf owns me'

To jump back a bit I'll give you some heights (going round the circle).

Prenton Bridge 52ft (beside the bridge)
End of Landican Lane 71ft
Arrowe Park "Roundabout" 137ft
Entrance to cemetery 165ft
Top of Landican Road 189ft
Bottom of Landican Road 144ft
Triangle in Landican Village 136ft
Sharp bend in Landican Lane 92ft

Across the road from Crosshill Reservoir the highest point of the Ting is 225ft

And that is the problem with a village being there, its bloomin' wet, water pours down past Landican Village, its boggy land. The village road is pretty messy most of the year. We were walking through the woodland on the south and east sides of Arrowe Park recently and most of it was like mango swamps.

I guess the cemetery land was cheap because it was not much use for anything else and must have needed draining.

The field opposite Asda looks like its been raised considerably at some time, perhaps when they levelled the land for the Woodchurch estate?

Just for info, the highest ground level point I could find in Thingwall was at the northern end of Mayfield Lane at 237ft matched by Ridgewood Park, both are borderline Thingwall/Pensby. Pensby hall is 310ft then Poll Hill 358ft.

There was a well beside Holy Cross, Woodchurch and that could have been one of the two wells?

Interesting heights . Woodchurch (according to Wikipedia) 'with the centre of the village at an elevation of approximately 41 m (135 ft) above sea level.'
Therefore Woodchurch is a foot lower than Landican village at 136 ft. and considerably different to other points in your above list.
More interestingly is Thurstaston Hill at the highest point is 298 ft, the highest of all. Why was that not used as a Viking Parliament meeting place ? Maybe that's where they performed their pagan rituals.. on Thor's stone ? I think that has already been suggested many moons ago.

Was there a ' ancient well ' beside Holy Cross ? Didn't know that , and can't find anything about it, anywhere.

Settlements/ancient villages through time have nearly always been near rivers.

I doubt the fact that Landican being a muddy mess ,or anywhere else for that matter in the last few months, gives a fair picture of weather pre- climate change , 2000 yrs ago. It was clearly a village at some point in time , for a long time and therefore the conditions you experienced were maybe not usual, and even if they were, not a problem to the farming community over the generations.

As we see in the last few weeks, and people are still under water in various parts of the country with the floods, particularly villages that were built by rivers !

There are two more points in defence of the 'muddy ' Landican' lane , and Thingwall area. Firstly, the land in the area is still arable farming land and generally has good drainage all year around, secondly if the land was so wet and boggy there would not be any horses in the area as it would be too wet . As it is , Thingwall farmstead (when it was) down Thingwall Lane , is awash with horses in the fields despite the brooks .
The land is good and drains well ,in contrast to e.g. Irby , which is mostly clay or it was when I lived there. Thingwall to Landican village across from Gallopers Lane must be less than half a mile across the footpaths, which have now been closed off by the owners of a property. (That pisses me off, they move in from a town, think they can wield the rod of iron, get their own way by changing the layout of the land, call an old lane a private road, put up gates and get away with it ! )

Woodchurch estate was definitely farming land prior to the estate being built, so I'm assuming Landican Cemetery would also have been at some time . I think Woodchurch land was compulsory purchase . Population of Woodchurch in 1901 was 140. Thingwall 48, Landican 71.

Have to say, although I am not as high as Cross Hill (Ting) from my bedroom window there are fantastic views across to Liverpool and beyond . At times, when conditions are right, I can see the hills of the Pennines. (think they're the Pennines range.) I always wondered about Thingwall, Liverpool and if there was any connection with beacons at times of Parliament and communication. Another Thingwall also on Isle on Man . Would Liverpool connect to Isle of Man. We always seem to see paintings of Vikings carrying flaming torches.

That was the sort of thing Elizabeth 1 did during the Armada. Sent messages from one high point to another with beacons around the country.

....and I blame 'Ivan the Boneless' ......things could have been so much different.

Poll Hill is the highest point on the Wirral at 358ft and quite a natural shape for a defensive position. Loads of bed rock to dig into and make it what you like but it got reservoired.

Well was in the road immediately north of Holy Cross https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...=-3.09027&layers=6&right=BingHyb

The other Well is in the southern courtyard of Landican village [url]https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...3.08021&layers=168&right=BingHyb[/utl]

Yes, sorry, when I said Thurstaston was the highest of all, (that sounds bad English) I was meaning between, Cross Hill and the others you mentioned in your previous post above.

Found the position of the wells and springs in Landican. Greg Dawson's book. Okell's farm was down Landican Lane.
He writes :
' One well is covered in Okell's Farm, and the other was half way down the old Woodchurch Lane, behind the cemetery in what was once a cottage garden.'
' One spring was near to the footpath from Thingwall , just before Okell's farm and the other was at the side of Landican Lane , just before it's junction with Woodchurch Road. This stretch of road was diverted about 1969 as it ran into the newly constructed motorway slip road by the pumping station . Landican Lane now comes out onto Woodchurch Road, opposite the car park , next to Pioneer Supermarket ' (Now Asda I assume)

He also writes :

'There are two ancient wells in Stanley Wood and when I was a lad, I remember a cow falling down one. There must have been a few cottages there years ago as I can't see people digging one well, let alone two , so far from the nearest village.'

In 1934 the 'new' Landican Road was built by Warrens, from Thingwall Corner to Landican Village and Woodchurch Lane was closed to traffic. The middle section of Woodchurch Lane was incorporated in the cemetery and planted with trees. It remained open only as a very muddy footpath until 1944 when it was closed by an Act of Parliament , but access to the cottages was still available. '

Arrowe , going up behind the Warrens to Limbo Lane. Possibly the boundary was at Glenwood Drive Irby, as a stream backed onto the garden of those houses.




https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/esUAAOSwIC1Z20fG/s-l1600.jpg

The pumping station is the gas place, I hadn't noticed Landican Lane had been diverted round this.

The Woodchurch Lane cottages were just a pair of semis, there was a similar pair across the Woodchurch Road from the gas pumping station.

Here's another map showing Arrowe. Not so detailed but there might be more as I didn't look any further.

facing Page 95

https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/74-6-Rideout.pdf