Here are a 3 pictures of spital dam, the one that shows the roads amazes me. Don't know dates of them, sorry.

WOW i love pics like them good find

wow i use to get the bus there! and walk across the dam while wating for it. they are building a nursery there now. fantastc pix tho thanks

cant help but think what a mad location for a nursery, or any building, not sayin its not safe but it was havin to be pumped out a few months ago due to flooding!

have looked into job in the nursery any road x

I agree with that chiccy...as do all my friends as well.

Noticed all the fencing theyve had to put up for the nursery?

Still, its a better use of the land than letting that old pointless building just rot away. Awesome Pictures

That was my first thought - let's put a nursery up by a fast flowing weir.

Amazing pics! I borrowed Ian Boumphrey's 'Birkenhead of Yesteryear' It has some fantastic photos in it. I was amazed to see pictures of Storeton Quarry. Never realised there was a tunnel (keep calm Robbo) under Mount Road along which was a tramway all the way to Bromborough. Or that Quarry Lane East is the path of the tramway. Now all that remains of the tramway is a tunnel under the train line at the end of that road.

We don't seem to have a thread on the subject - surprised ChrisKay (Friend of Storeton Woods ) has not made a thread. Also amazed at pics of Bebington Mill.

The second picture shows the old mill which used to have a water wheel

brill Pictures thanks

Is it a nursery for plants or for children? Eek! The former I think?

There are a couple of threads about the Storeton tramway. The definitive book on it is "The Storeton Tramway" by R.C.Jermy, but have a look at:
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums...d&topic=0&Search=true#Post245969
and
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums...y&topic=0&Search=true#Post250328

Cheers, Chris.

"Is it a nursery for plants or for children? Eek! The former I think?"

Children.......

Another picture of Spital Dam in 1903 - or Bromborough Mill as it was called ..... and note the size of the boat!!!

So the river/stream must have been a lot bigger to accomodate a boat of that size.

Im wondering where the boat would go to in the surounding area, as I see it, judging by the geography and geology of the surrounding area, its not easy to gain access to the Mersey..

Brilliant Picture

@AlfaCraig I know there used to be boats on the other side of the road (Dibbinsdale)after WW2. Presumably in 1903 the dam didn't exist and it may have been tidal up to this point. The water has two routes I think, the minor route goes down beside Magazine Lane, the main route meanders northwards then heads to the dock south of Bromborough tip.

Wow, didnt know where it actually went, cheers for that info

The house on the opposite side of the Dam used to have a small light boat in their "Garden" for a number of years, but was removed I think about 3-4 years ago. No idea if they ever used it on that actual patch of water or not.

follow the water from by levers u can see some sort of lock!

Fantasic pics,would`nt even like to hazard a guess when they were taken.

I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of the old Station Masters' house that used to be there?? It was where the car park is now I think. They've built new houses on that site.

Thanks.

When sunlight factory was built, a railway cutting was dug out that runs parallel to Bromborough Road, then parallel to Mill Road, then parallel to Magazine Lane. It starts at about Port Sunlight Station and ends up at the mersey.

From Spital Dam to Thermal Road, it is a true cutting in solid sandstone, the width of the cutting vary from about 20 feet to about 50 feet. At spital dam a tunnel was built to take the water under the cutting.

These pictures are taken from the same spot.

The sandstone ridge at Spital Dam must have finshed very rapidly, the end of the cutting is about 90ft above the dam, but before the tunnel was built the river used to flow across her on its path??? That is a lot of earth that has been piled up.

Time to get my dinghy out the shed and in2 that tunnel armed with my super bright torch

I can sort the super tunnel torch lol If you have a dinghy lol

How deep is that water any one know ??

how long would it take to get to that tunnel from australia in a dinghy..cos thats where his location says he is lol

i was jokin, but it would be good to see inside that tunnel, but it would take a very long time from down under to birkenhead by dinghy via the mersey

Got my snorkel, see what I can do over the next couple of days. As there is a sewage treatment works there, better start taking my antibiotics now!!!

we will keep away from you mate for a bit

The photo can't be 1903 because the wind mill was demolished in 1878 after being there since 1777.
I, too, was wondering how the boat got near the mill.
Here's another fair-sized boat just below the dam.

The railway embankment for the line to Price's Candle Works, etc., was built in 1910 but before that the River Dibben would have had a clear run down to the Mersey, apart from the Dam, which provided the head of water for the mill.

The high view with the car (bull-nosed Morris?) would have been from the railway level.

The early maps show that the river was tidal, way up into Brotherton Park, presumably at extreme high tides. The mill race bypassed the dam but I assume the boat could have got up that way, so it may have over-topped the Dam at one of the high tides, assuming the railings weren't there.

The other boat is in what would have been the normally tidal part, before Bromborough Dock was completed in 1930.

I lived at the other end of Bromborough Road, Lower Bebington, up to the 1960s and well remember the awful smell and the yellow oily water below the Dam. They dumped chemicals from the factory further down stream apparently but the river flow was not sufficient to keep the water 'sweet'!

Try to imagine the rural scene before any of the industry got there. Lever chose the Dibben inlet from the Mersey to have water access for the import of the soap ingredients and packaging and the export of his products to the rest of the world. The River Dibben was never the same again! Most of it below the Dam seems to be hidden in pipes now?

Bri

1903 picture - I scanned the picture in and it was definately dated 1903. Was the windmill destroyed by wind in 1878 meaning the sails were destroyed and then it may have been repaired.

I am not sure if I read somewhere that the water-mill was a tidal mill!

The Bromborough Society published an account of the mills at Bromborough in 2000, in this they state:


I haven't found any supporting evidence for this.

The Bromborough Watermill was tidal powered, this meant it could only operate for four hours every tide. In about 1860 it was converted to steam power.

The other factor that concerned me is, effectively saying that every picture of that windmill was taken before 1878, whilst not impossible - the quality and quantity of photographs would suggest otherwise.

Thanks Upton for the confirmation of the tidal mill and additional information. I should have realised there is a chimney there ... doh!

Also I realise now that I may not have scanned the "1903" picture after all, thought it was one of a batch, but it wasn't.

I can't see any advantage in blowing up the windmill, it was by a hill side, the debris would end up everywhere. Explosive demolition in those days wasn't very refined. Structure like that were sometimes brought down by undercutting the structure (removing some of the bottom layer of brick) then a team of horses would be roped up to pull the remaining key pieces out. This was supposed to be a spectacular sight with teams of 16 horses not uncommon.

Spot the difference ....

These photos are identical except that sometime in the 130+ years since the original was taken, someone has 'improved' the image by painting out the debris and piles of building material and replacing them with a smooth water surface.
The retouched image is the one which is usually seen in the history books.
And this was done before Photoshop existed!

An interesting comparison there. "The camera doesn't lie" !

Oh yeh... like cheap chinese watch !!

One thing strange with the two picture versions - directly behind the chimney, on the horizon, an extra building has appeared, attached to the windmill! Are these two seperate touch ups of the same picture - was the windmill added to both of them or is the sepia one dated? The sepia one is an outstanding photograph if it predates 1878.

The sepia "original" photo had been stuck into a book in 1949 using five blobs of glue on the reverse. This has affected the image by bleaching the colour. The clearest indication of this is in the top corners - circles of white (if you have a laptop or LCD monitor, tilt the screen - they become very clear). The central blob of glue is where the 'extra' building and the windmill platform's handrail should be - both have disappeared. Where the building should be there remains only a small smudge of colour. The end of the mill's sweep has almost disappeared.
It wasn't me who took the photo (obviously) but my conclusions are that both images are from the same negative/plate; the 'extra' building was on both images and has bleached from the sepia one; the water has been painted on to the b/w image to hide the debris and make a 'nice' scene of rural industry.
Other opinions welcome.

This is curious isn't it Greasby, I can now see the bleaching you are talking about but in that case the chimney must be built of stronger stuff as it has stubbornly refused to be bleached despite the building being perfectly cut-off either side of it.

I think you may find that the sail has been bleached, the missing building is the start of some touching up. I still trying to figure out if the windmill has been added to the picture.

Trying to dig out the earliest picture without the windmill to see if there are any alterations to the other buildings which may show if the windmill is in the wrong era.

This one's about 1900 if its any help

Thanks upton - first looks and the 1903 buildings are more dilapidated than the 1900 which is the right way round .... examples being, both single storey buildings in front of the chimney, windows on main mill building.

The counter arguement is the amount of plant growth, which is why the pictures need a closer look.

I will sit down sometime with all photos and look for more structural evidence.

Just to add to the confusion, here's a copy of the 'retouched' sepia picture, with the building behind the chimney intact.

This is dated 1876 by the Bromborough Society.

I think that demonstrates that anything to do with this photo is highly unreliable - is that a pig flying past near the top?

I can't see how this image differs from the 'retouched' (i.e. water painted in) b/w image I posted earlier.

Your right, I'm getting confused now.... pills please!

Thank goodness 'my' boat hasn't been added/fiddled with, otherwise my exercise was a waste of time. It IS genuine, isn't it?!!

Bri

You're absolutely right, it's me that's causing the confusion - sorry

Bromborough watermill is a favourite subject of mine. Here's a photo taken in April 1949 during the demolition of the buildings. Many history books give the date of demolition wrongly as 1959.

What is that at the top of the hill then - looks like a windmill stump!

Amazing pictures btw

Not a windmill stump!!! It's one of the chimney stacks of a very grand house. This shows it more clearly -

Why did all these building get knocked down? Did they just fall into disrepair? Such a shame.

As a follow-up to the post by bri445 on page 1, showing the culvert & locomotive. I've just got a copy of "The Railways of Port Sunlight & Bromborough Port by M.D.Lister. Here's an extract describing the Lever Bros. extension from Port Sunlight to Bromborough Port Estate in 1910.
It's on 2 pages cos I don't know how to stitch them together.

I know that ...

As big as the culvert was, it wasn't big enough.

First photo undated, probably 1935 - 1945.

That's a lot of water when you compare it with the height of the wall by the lamp post in picture 3 on page 1!!
It appears to be flowing over this wall towards Spital Road but it's hard to imagine a high tide would get THAT high at this point. It would have been VERY high at the Wharf and Port Sunlight Dock and you would not expect this to happen since it should be controlable by closing the Bromborough Dock gates.
If it was storm water coming down through the Park, it's hard to imagine the culvert would not cope and the excess be controlled by opening the Mersey gates.
Were there other occasions when this happened?
Bri

I believe it to be rainwater in both the previous photos. That b/w photo is from the time that the tide was controlled by the dock gates. I understand that the present situation is that the Dibben passes through a non-return flap which keeps out the tidal water. My knowledge of the Bromborough Pool dock system is not good - so what I've just said may not be correct (comments & corrections, please).
This photo shows the embankment and the road to Bebington - it should show the culvert but it's hidden by the flood. Possibly the culvert would be capable of the job but the other end is inundated as well.

If you have a high tide and the outlet valve or gate /paddle is closed so not to let the high tide into the drain system and at the same time you have a large amount of rain water flowing down the drain system towards the river you end up with flooding some where, and in this case it spital dam area.

Really interesting photo. There must have been some serious blockage in the culvert or the PS Dock/Wharf system to cause that.
It's a winter scene...when?

The later b/w photo shown no movement of water in the area of the culvert ("it's as calm as a millpond") so the culvert must be equally inundated at its other end. Spital dam is 2½ km (1½ miles) inland from the Mersey, so presumably the floods extend for a long portion of this distance.
Ref dating the b/w flood photos - The person who gave them to me (a relative of the last miller) declined to date them as accuracy could not be guaranteed. The mill, which appears in some of them, was demolished in 1949. My estimate for that flood is between 1935 and 1945, judging mainly by the clothing of people in the other photos.

When planning approval for the childrens' nursery was given in 2008, one of the conditions ( Application 20085003 - Decision)
was -
13)The finished floor levels of the proposal shall be 7.775m Above Ordnance Datum and the levels of the access road shall be 7.475m Above Ordnance Datum.
This was "To reduce the risk of flooding"

It should be a bit worrying that the flooding happened in 2008 after the 'improvements' downstream!
The Dibben below the culvert is no longer tidal and there don't appear (on Google Earth) to be any high banks from Mersey to culvert to cope with flooding by extra high tides overtopping the dam at the Mersey end.
Thus, the 2008 photo would indicate a blockage at the culvert holding back the water from the roads and the Park.
I hope the sewage pumping station has no outlet to the Mill Pond!
I'm no longer local but is there public access to the tree-lined part above the White Bridge. I can't believe how rural it all looks these days!
Bri

I can just see the kids from the nursery having a paddle in their playground if it happens again lol

Rural - until April 2008. Here's the view in June 2009.

Thanks, that's some nursery! I was thinking of something just a bit bigger than a Portacabin. The water still looks pretty grim but I suppose it doesn't smell as I remember it in the '50s. They would have had to keep the windows shut!
The anti-flooding height 'above datum' is obvious, too.

Does anyone know where I can find more of these pictures?

My house can be seen in a few of the pictures; the chimneys can be seen on top of the hill. I want to find any pictures looking up from the dam after 1846 when the house was built.

Would love to get some blown up for the hallway.