OK - here's one to stretch wikiwirral historians' brains.
A few years back I was looking at an old map of Bidston from about 1870. On it I noticed some stones placed quite uniformly in three rows in a field west of Bidston Village. Just checked the old-maps website and they are on the 1899 map but have disappeared by 1912.

Does anyone have any idea what these stones were? Were they part of some megalithic arrangement? And if so this is massive!
Its either in Lower Nags Meadow or Rushy Meadow (tithe map 1842). The land is owned by Robert Vyner.

Have a look:

Fender Lane is now Bidston Village Rd which ends where the bypass takes over.
Would be grateful for any info on this.

Interesting. Looking at my 1899 map (Godfrey edition Cheshire sheet 7.14) there is no sign of the stones. However, this point is right at the edge of the Godfrey map. Also, just about where the stones are on your earlier map is shown as the the route of the North Wales & Liverpool railway

Snod

Hmm, on Old Maps they're still there on the 1899 map (to the south west of the junction of the railway line and Fender Lane) but they'd been reduced in size & number but gone by 1913. They're also in the 1876 and 1882 ones but extend further, a mystery indeedy!

Co-ordinates are 327800,390100
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx

I wonder if they are mentioned in the Wirral Hundred?

Someone must know what they were...could they have anything to do with the name Bidston?

Trying to find where the name originated from is prooving pretty difficult.

Is it a mile stone to some were

Rather a lot of information out there but nothing on these stones or the name.

have they got any think on them ?

The only thing I have on this (from the history of the wirral hundred) is that to the west were marhes, a plain with more than a thousand cattle ... but later he mentions the foreground of the moor is broken up with rock and sand, quarrying operations extended over a wild and irreguler space.

I don't know if the "quarrying operations" is a poetic description or stating that there were quarries there, nor is it clear which direction this was in.

Good find anyway MissGuided - this could be something big.

I would suspect that they are part of an old dwarf wall, most likely to keep live stock.

It seems peculiar that they run in three rows and they are spaced apart - the spacing widens with the years, so I assume people were taking the stones away.
If they had been megaliths they probably got dug out and used for building material - terrible shame.

There is/was an old farm called stone farm in Bidston, don't know where, this may have something to do with the stones because stone farm would have been stating the obvious if it was referring to the farm buildings - like saying Brick House which would take on a more meaningful meaning if it were near a brick works.

1842 Plot 236
Owner - Robert Vyner
Occupier - Executors of Eleanor Wharton
Ploy Name - Part of Lower Nags Pasture
Land Use - Pasture

Maps do not unfortunately give names of farms.

Here's a list of everything Robert Vyner owned:
http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithema...ter=V&word=VYNER&random=854#Tab1

Thanks for the link to the tithe maps; that'll be good for several more wasted hours.

Cheers, Chris.

Yes but we're no nearer the mystery of the stones

Bidston Hall, Church Farm and Yew Tree Farm all date from the seventeenth century; across the road from the church is Stone farm, which was formerly the Ring o' Bells Inn with a swinging signboard depicting the ringers at work. Unfortunately, the last landlord, Simon Croft, was also one of the inn's best customers and did little to discourage drunken behaviour, which distressed the churchgoers and led to the inn being closed down in 1868. This left the village without any licensed house for more than a century. From Mike Kemble
http://www.mikekemble.com/mside/bidston.html

The place he refers to as Stone Farm is on the opposite corner to the church - just west of it. I am guessing this based on tithe map registering that property as a public house occupied by a James Radley

Yes it is on the other side of the road. Those stones would now be covered by modern housing from the looks of that map. How do you know for certain that they are stones ?

Frick

if you read the map carefully it says stones along each row. Could they have an agricultural use?!

From looking at the old maps i would say its the plot of "Rushy Meadows" pasture land, and i would stick to the theory of it being a wall to keep live stock. Its certainly too big for any kind of building.

There are no houses on the field - just the M53, the field boundaries are still intact with slight changes here and there.

There where also a lot of large pits dug in that area during the second world war.they were filled with oil and set on fire to dis-orientate the German bombers heading for the docks

oh great so maybe they all got dug up either to make houses or to confuse the jerry's lol

Yeah those 'starfish' decoys where just slightly south of Bidston station, brick remains still there but a hell of a lot more overgrown than in the early ninties when i was younger.
I'm hooked on that site link you provided Missguided, I didn't know how different the bidston area looked according to 1970's aerial view, there seems to be no roundabout or flyover leading into moreton..just scrolling along most of wirral now to see what was there in the 1970's. Get a error message though everytime i scroll along the map

Yeah I was happy to find Old Maps but because they are trying to sell them they made the resolution very poor.
Me and Miss C are off to Central library to research today so will hopefully have something when we get back. I briefly found something on the name last week when I popped in there:

Bidston - likely to come from Anglo-Saxon Bidda's Stone - a prayer stone which people assembled at to pray - apparently in this case to pray to Aethelred

Missguided-You know you found that the field was called 'Nag's Meadow'-well perhaps the field was for keeping horses tethered there?

Actually I made a mistake-Nags Pasture not meadow, even more likely for where horses would be kept to crop the grass?

Nag's Pasture is not the one with stones in - I am pretty certain that is Rushy Meadow. Central Library turned up nothing at all. Bidstone is another name I found and the bidda stone was to pray for Aethelmund - probably a Anglo-Saxon warrior or priest. Another theory talks of Beda - possibly Bede - he has links with the area.

I'm stumped, so next stop is Birkenhead History Society.

Good luck with the history society ,from past experience they are a pretty stuffy lot.

Do you think that the Bidda stone and Aethelmund could be connected to the sun goddess ?

No its not. The Sungodess is thought to be the oldest carvings on the hill. Its thought to have been etched by Phoenicians travellers thousands of years ago. 'Ray Bellisima' (spelt phenetically) is there name given to the River Mersey.

The name is taken from the name of the Phoenician Cat God. This female marking on Bidston hill faces the river Mersey and looks to have a cats head. Coincidence ???

Bloody vandals eh? I dunno... whats the ancient world coming to?

i was thinking, is it some sort of ancient farming method. Or could it be some sort of ceremonial thing facing in a certain direction....it'll probably end up being something really mundane like to mark the position of the sewers or something lol

http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/mpp/mcd/sa.htm

Could this be our stones

The stones were set in lines running north-south. I might try to actually plot them on a modern map, now that I have photocopies from the old maps at the library.

Good golly - I think that's what they are!! Nice one Oon!

"1 Definition
A stone alignment comprises a single line, or two or more roughly parallel lines, of upright stones set at intervals along a common axis or series of axes. The number and size of stones in known alignments varies greatly, but the minimum number of stones required to form an alignment is three. The word alignment here refers to the juxtapositioning of the stones forming the monument itself rather than to any supposed or observed orientation on other monuments and/or topographical features.

A stone alignment can be distinguished from certain types of avenue by virtue of its relative straightness, and from a pair of standing stones by the greater number of uprights required to form an alignment. Field boundaries and other features formed of upright slabs may, however, sometimes be confused with stone alignments, but in most cases such monuments can be distinguished because of their relatively recent date of construction."

I wonder if English Heritage have a record of them even though they are not there any more?

Wow this is really exciting!! As an example of monuments these stone rows are rare. Even rarer on lower ground.

Trouble is where are they now?

In someone's garden wall lol

I have searched through a number of databases of stone lines in the uk and NONE of them have similar quantities and distances (particularly distance between the lines) of those at Bidston, I was especially trying to tie it to Viking or Neolithic. I never have much luck finding out what the Romans did on the Wirral there must be quite a bit of documentation somewhere but well hidden (or I am just blind).

I still think you are on to something big, though it may be quite surprising.

I have also been trying to check copies of William Davis's paintings because he did a number around Bidston in the 1850s ... it may be worth checking other artists, there were many and some will have been guided to Bidston by Davis's work.

I am wondering if that area would not be too interesting as it was farmland and tithe map of 1842 says oats were grown on it. So its possible stones would not show when crops were high. Have been looking at stone rows on Dartmoor - trying to imagine what our Bidston stone rows would have looked like - quite extensive.

Here's an interesting article about Dartmoor stone rows:
http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/stone_rows.htm

Interesting idea that there might be sockets filled in that might yield something about when they were filled in. Als the idea of pollen analysis to establish what grew around them, though if this was arable land it would have been churned up repeatedly so may not show anything. I wonder if geophys would pick up sockets?

Note that left row is to the right of the Fender and left of the M53.
Note also that the course of the drainage in the field has changed very little since the C19th maps.

M ight be worth a scout around that field then, see if anything remains. Maybe even move some of the topsoil when no ones around. I find if you stick in a high vis jacket and hold a clip board, no one will question you anyway.

I sound like a burglar dont i ?

In 1992 Liverpool Museum did an evaluation of this area - so it may be worth getting in touch with them.

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/search/fr.cfm?rcn=EHNMR-1316354

Hope this helps.

Hi guys, the maps are the key to indicating the age of this site. They appear on the OS maps, but are not on either the earlier Tithe maps, or the 1665 Kingsland Estate Maps...significantly, this latter map detailed a number of other geological features such as the cave in bidston and further landmarks and boundaries. This points to there being no stone rows at this time.

As a further bit of evidence, the area now occupies a low lying part of Wirral that was likely to have been under water in the EMA, so would not have been anywhere suitable for the siting of stones.

Someone mentioned geophysics....yes a resistivity survey would show up any post hole type features, but would not give a date for the stones, and excavation would most likely to prove pointless as the archaeological context of the area would have been disturbed by agricultural activity.

My thoughts were first that it may have been a maritime feature if the area was flooded, but the maps disprove an early date for the stones, so I'm thinking it may have something to do with the observatory perhaps, as a visible set of measured markers would have been a means of measuring astronomical movements.....only a shot in the dark, but a calculated one!

Cheers guys.

The cave in Bidston?

Yes, it's a big fat cave in a field called 'cave plantation' on the tithe maps, you can see it if you drive down Lennox Lane!

I've got a photo of it here, uploading for u now

You can upload by useing the "Switch to full reply screen" on the bottom of the quick reply window ..... or is you press the "reply" button to any message it comes up .. the thing you are looking for is "upload manager" just underneath the text window.

Here you are....

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/36478835@N05/3380292460/[/img]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36478835@N05/3380292460/

Got it .. new one on me

anyway, hope this info helps. First found reference to these stones on this website, and used it in a paper on the potential for surviving archaeology of Bidston based upon maps....thought I'd repay the favour with some info!

I've had a few top drawer archaeologists look at this and they came to the same conclusion. By the way, if you're looking for any prehistory in Bidston, that cave would be a good start. A number of stone axe heads were found in the local area, but were lost in the bombing of Liverpool museum.

I've recently been given a polished neolithic axe head found in Heswall about 30 years ago and the owner had been using it as a door stop.

Thanks Deano!

Thanks for looking into this deano. I had a feeling I was never really going to get round to it!

Question is - is that field visible from the site of the observatory?

It would have been when the observatory was first built, and we don't necessarily know the size of the stones, only their position....as a caveat though, I'm just surmising and am probably incorrect; however it's clear that it's highly unlikely to be a prehistoric monument of any kind. Would have been nice though!

Its a shame there is nothing written about it. I thought Neilson might have mentioned them but he didn't.

No, neither does Ormerod or anyone else!

Never seen that cave, nice pic !. I would still go on the theory that the stones are marking a boundary like a dwarf wall.

wow were the hell is that cave i like it pic

It's about here:

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=bi...&loc=GB:53.4054:-3.07766:20|bidston|

Im sure that there are still some large stones in that field?
T.C. or derekdwc can you remember asking me what the mound was
Told them it was a large stone mossed over.

yep i asked you about them mate thay are still there!

Got to the bottom of this if anyone is interested. It's a series of post-medieval mills right through this field. Due to the stones not being on the 17th century maps, and have now mostly disappeared.....i'm 90% sure that's what these stone rows are.

There is no other known pattern like this (or even similar) in England - although I don't like it, I will go with the alignment pattern for the Observatory.

What's the most number of Mills on any other single site you know of? I've only come across two that are within 100 yards of each other, other than when a replacement mill been built.

This thread in fascinating!

Thanks for getting to the bottom of it deano. I don't understand though how the stones related to mills? Am I being thick?

i find this thread a great read, very interesting stuff......... : - ) x

VERY VERY INTERESTING!!!! Cant wait!!

TELL US!

Tide Mill

I am guessing Deano was referring to a "Tide Mill Pond" with dam gates to trap the water.

'A tide mill is a specialist type of water mill driven by tidal rise and fall.

A dam with a sluice is created across a suitable tidal inlet, or a section of river estuary is made into a reservoir. As the tide comes in, it enters the mill pond through a one way gate, and this gate closes automatically when the tide begins to fall. When the tide is low enough, the stored water can be released to turn a water wheel.

Tide mills are usually situated in river estuaries, away from the effects of waves but close enough to the sea to have a reasonable tidal range. These mills have existed since the Middle Ages, and some may go back to the Roman period.

A modern version of a tide mill is the electricity generating tidal barrage.'

This site gives the following information.

Bidston on the Wirral.
SJ 298909 area
tide powered slitting mill -remains extant
Trans. Hist Soc. Lancs. And Ches. 1957, 108 (Historical society of Lancashire and Cheshire journal volume 108 published in 1957)

Is this on the Wirral by any chance?

The exact spot where the stones stood on your map, is now The corsair public house, and the red line to the left of the map is just about where the Bidston to Neston rail line is, I remember the ore trains trudging along this line at night in the early 70's it kept me awake many nights.
The spot on your map where it shows the school, just after the dogs leg in the road was a double tennis court owned by One of the members of the Scaffold group in 1975.

The funny thing is there still getting Stoned in the same place now , but on loopy juice :-)

The Railway line is on the east (right) of this field and the Corsair is further east still. The Corsair is now well shut and burnt out!

The field with the stones is at NGR SJ278900 - see comparison maps.

The tide mills, or tidal mills, were somewhere between SJ292914 (the M53 flyover near Bidston B&Q) and SJ298909 (near to Bidston Recycling Centre). Burdett's map published 1777 shows the two mills (the watermill symbol is a circle or wheel with external spokes).

dd. I think the photo (Is this on the Wirral ?) is indeed on the Wirral. On the skyline about 3/4's across to the right, is what looks like the Flaybrick Water Tower. Immediately left of it is the adjacent pumping station chimney - long demolished.

Where the photo was taken from is another matter !

I'mguessing that's a railway line in the middle distance.

I'm careful about avoiding the creation of false leads - but this may be the house in the photo.

DD -
Your photo was published in 2003 in "A Wirral Album" compiled by the Heswall Society. The title of the photo is "Wallasey. Tidal Mill site." and it was taken by E. Mitford Abraham circa 1900. The modern text which accompanies the photo is sceptical of there having been a tidal mill on the site. The author of the text probably did not know that Burdett had shown and named the mills on his 1777 map.
As to the location and orientation of the camera when the photo was taken, I offer the following suggestion (image below). If correct, it would show (L-R in the original photo) - Mosshouse, St James church, the reservoir water tower on Boundary Road and Flaybrick cemetery chapel, also a lot of railway activity. N.B this is a suggestion, not a statement of fact.

Any news on this announcement Dean? (re Woodchurch and Landican)

Cheers,

Tom.

It's not my place to say, it's been delayed because of more things coming up. Finds are coming up there from neolithic to post-med, so there's a lot to get through.

Thanks Dean, something to look forward to then.
Cheers,
Tom.

I had a mysterious PM from someone on here called TETE4 saying they had found some of the stones. I asked for more details and they never replied.

I told a few people about the stones in work and set them looking into stuff - a genealogist, a geographer and someone who's mum lives local. The latter reckons she may have seen a sandstone 'post' in the fields.

One day I'm going to venture down there.

I don't think this has anything to do with the tidal mills - too far away from Wallasey Pool. These stones are right by Bidston Village.

And another thing - I've realised that the 3 rows all run north to south.

I must admit, I've come back to this as I'm not sure on my first interpretation and the stones intrigue me. They cross over a field boundary which suggests a pre-enclosure date (mid 19th Century) but seem to respect Fender Lane which suggests the lane was there first. They don't appear on the Tithe Maps, but they didn't always display features such as stones anyway. However, you usually find that prehistoric stones of this type lead to field names called "Stone Field" "Stoney Croft" etc, whereas this field is called Rushy Meadow which suggests wetland (hence my first initial tidal mill idea). I have a copy of every single OS Map for this area since the First Edition, and they only appear in 1875 and 1912. Gone after this.

I've emailed it to my friend who is a lecturer in Prehisory anyway, just to see if there are any comparisons. They are slightly off the N-S axis, but do in fact run perfectly with the line of the field they sit in which suggests something farm related perhaps.

A mystery! I've had a quick walk around but not saw much, think I'll take the dog down later in the week with a camera and have a nose.

Might they have related to the Bidston Deer Park?

Your mention of the stones brought back a memory from when we used to play on Comptons field. I think it was near one of the Pill Boxes there were some huge dressed stones half buried (flat) in the ground. They were big enough to climb on and use when we would have a picnic. From memory I would say they were at least 8ft. long and about 3ft wide.

Sounds like a stone circle raymondo - wouldn't surprise me with us bordering onto north wales which is full of them!

I am waiting to hear from a friend who has contacted the county archaeologist to see what their take on it is.

I still think it is neolithic.

It appears on 1882 and 1899 as well deano.

This has troubled me since 1994 when I first saw it on the 1876 map in Birkenhead reference Library - I want answers!! lol

We could have our very own stone rows right here on Wirral!

I wonder how many other things like this sit on old maps and go unnoticed...

In all honesty, I'd very much doubt these were Neolithic. If they were, they'd be the biggest Neolithic monument in Europe and a local antiquarian would have easily noted these by the end of the 19th Century. The only similar prehistoric monuments are perhaps causeways, but these are a central path closed in by two rows of stones, not three. I suspect the answer lies in the landscape around the field, which needs to be explored thoroughly. Remember that this area was likely to be marshy too.

I've showed this map to a few colleagues (including a stone specialist and a prehistorian) and they are both stumped. I'd suggest they are a post-medieval feature, but this doesn't lessen the mystery surrounding them! I'd love to get to the bottom of it.

I'd have thought someone like W.F.Irvine would have mentioned them long ago.

Bigger than Carnac?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnac_stones

well, technically Carnac is a series of monuments, but I take your point. Merely pointing out the fact that it would be a complete fluke if this was prehistoric. Stranger things have happened I suppose, but my money is on agricultural feature.

Exactly.

Maybe a flight of fancy however is there not a fairly agreed relationship between stine alignments and sun/moon rise on specific dates such as the Solstices? If so has anyone looked at the possible alignment direction regarding this?

I actually have another possibility after visiting Oxford yesterday. There were until recently alignments of stone rows on the common (which is also prone to flooding like this field) which were used for drying hay on.

That's an interesting use of such stones, can you share any sources on that?

I was told this by an archaeologist when walking on the common, I'll have a look for a written source when I'm back there next week.

Eriann - the rows go roughly in a north/south direction.

Although I initially liked the idea of hay drying, after thinking about the practicalities of it I'm starting to go off the idea.

It seems a LOT of effort to position theses stones when in reality there is a hillside very close which would not be flooded. Also the location lends itself to winds, unless the top surface of the stones was very large I can't imagine a way of stacking a workable amount of hay on them.

"Staddle Stones" were common down in the south of the country, but these were support stones on which a barn like structure was built to dry the hay. The stones on the Bidston site would appear to be too far apart for any structure to be built on them.

Other thoughts ....

I was wondering just how flooded this area became, could it be something to do with fishing (nets or lines)???

Is it not the case that sunrise positions change over time and that there is some astro-archaeonomy software that can allow approximate sunrise position during ancient periods? Would be intresting to see if there is any 'chance' relationship between the stone's alignment and the position of key sun/moon rise events. Then again any speculation about possible Neolithic origins is weakened by the relative scarcity of major archaeology of that time on the Wiral. Always wondered why there seeems to be no Neolithic barrows present, and even Bronze-Age burial structures, which are fairly plentiful in Cheshire, appear absent from the area.

That would be good to see

Sun and moon rise/set east/west not north/south.

Sure. That's why it may be of interest to know by what degree such positions may have changed over time, to particularly note if they had a significantly different position for that location during the Neolithic?

The amount of axial tilt relative to perpendicular of the plane of the sun is limited to a cycle of less than 25 degrees since long before man was on this planet.

We are currently at a tilt of 23.5 degrees and the rate of change is about 1 degree every 72 years.

If we are tracking the North Pole Star (currently Polaris), it is now very close to Axial North and will be its closest later on this century - as well as our various wobbles, the star moves as well. BUT the North Pole Star in neolithic times would have been a different star (Thuban?) as that would be closer to the centre of rotation in the sky.

The maximum it could vary in a cyclic pattern for any one star is +/-24.5 degrees and would take about 26000 years for a complete cycle.

I am trying to find the maximum rate of change which is proving elusive, I can calculate an approximation but can't see any merit given the rest of the facts.

Take your point on the other factors surrounding this structure. that said what you are revealing is extremely interesting, and who knows, should this indeed prove to be some megalithic construction (boy does Wirral need one) then your researches may well be very insightful

There were bronze age barrows in Wirral. I know of at least two. Wirral soil seems to plough out features rather easily too, so I can imagine there were many, many more. There are also enclosures, settlements, finds but just not widely known or only published in certain circles.

I'd stake my house on these being relatively recent, but like I said before, they still remain an interesting mystery. I'm going for an agricultural feature or boundary stones of some sort.

id like to know as to where the bronze age barrows are/where if you wouldnt mind

A bronze age axe was found during the making of Town-field lane school playing fields. I doubt the owner was homeless.

Fascinating thread - so many people with such varied knowledge, too! Really looking forward to hearing about Woodchurch/Landican discoveries; I've always assumed it to be an area rich in history, but it will be very interesting to find out more, in due course.

It will be of great interest to get more details of the Bronze Age barrows that were claimed to exist on the Wirral, as I was under the impression that for some uknown reason the area was singularly lacking, apart from isolated individual artifact finds, in large structures such as barrows, from either the Neolithic or Bronze Age That's one reason why it's so tempting to speculate if the stones under discussion are megaliths of some kind.

There is/was a barrow long noted in Storeton and another in Raby. Further to this, there are a number of other sites known from aerial photography that have been speculated as prehistoric enclosures. Place-name evidence also suggests a number of other sites which are presumably lost to the plough.

There are stacks of prehistoric finds also, go to Bromborough library and read the journals they have. All in there folks.

That's very encouraging to hear, does anyone have some source for the barrows linked to Storeton and Raby?

Raby is on OS Maps, both are mentioned in Cheshire Sheaf and Journal of Chester Archaeological Society and Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire.

That's really helpful, thanks for the info, what dates were those papers?

I'll check for you. I have a digital copy of the sheaf, but not the others, so you'll have to hang on for those ones.

And don't forget that a lot of villages from the bronze age are now in the sea. Even after the bronze age the Mersey joined the Dee and didn't exit at its current estuary (and the Dee joined the Severn), the Isle of Man was joined to the mainland as was Hilbre and Burbo bank was all land. I'll dig up an excellent reference tomorrow, its called something to do with the north west coast and details the rise and fall of the land right down past us.

Re: Environment in Late Neolithic into Bronze Age, thought the following may prove of interest:

"The pattern of small clearances detected in the Neolithic continued throughout the Bronze Age. Evidence suggests a deterioration in climatic conditions and widespread regeneration of secondary woodland in the lowlands, heather moorland in the uplands and wetter conditions on the mire surfaces. At Leasowe Bay, North Wirral, deposits dated to 2700 - 2200 cal BC may be associated with sea level rise, with alder, fen carr and Sphagnum bog the dominant vegetation in the area (Kenna 1986, 5). Sea level was generally lower than today from the Late Neolithic (Tooley 1978), but from c. 1800 BC the present coast and dune system in Merseyside was largely in its present position" Source

If that was so the idea of a marine transgression explaining any paucity of Late-Neolithic and Bronze Age structures on the Wirral may need to be reconsidered? Can such an absence all be down to ploughing, or is it that the lack of recorded burials from that period indicates that the region was not well populated during that time? What puzzles me also is that Southern Britain has a high incidence of such structures, yet arguably has also experienced intense agricultural land use.

From somewhere I had held the notion that for a considerable period the Wirral was thought of as a wild place, heavily forested and accessible more by sea. Certainly the references to the area in Gawain and The Green Knight, compiled nearly 2000 years after the Bronze Age, describes the Wiral as such.

Of course maybe that was simply a literary exagerration, if not however, and the Wiral, apart from coastal fringes, was relatively uncultivated, then the loss of barrows. long or round, must have occured during the post medieval period and onwards?

http://oxfordarch.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=242&Itemid=191

Errain, the lack of prehistoric monuments in Wirral will be down to a mixture of reasons. They're uncommon across the whole of the Cheshire plains, and I think the growing importance of agriculture in the Neolithic period will explain how the south (with traditionally 'better' arable geology in loose terms) also has a higher density of Neolithic monuments. Cheshire as a whole is known for the quality of its pasture lands which support dispersement of communities rather than nucleation. This is essentially also the Early Medieval pattern of settlement in the area.

Also, on a much broader note, Wirral in particular has traditionally been overlooked academically with the local university of Liverpool concentrating on Classical as opposed to British archaeology. Only recently has Chester University come into its own as a respected department of research-led archaeology. The only other serious research has come from local amateurs (which is not a bad thing, but they obviously lack the resources of academic institutions) and some top-quality work by Dave Griffiths of Oxford & Rob Philpott at Liverpool Museum. There's also a few quality pieces of linguistic work by Coates, Cavill, Fellows-Jensen, etc & stone sculpture by the Corpus of Anglo-Saxon Stone Sculpture.

Therefore, it's a case of Wirral still being a fresh story still waiting to be explored rather than it being a vacuum of archaeology. I think the next few years will see a glut of new research that looks at Wirral in a new light, and I imagine a lot of new questions will be both asked and answered (hopefully including these damn stones!)

Great points and hopefully new insights will indeed be possible.

On the subject of Bronze Age barrows, Cheshire's county authority itself reports having over 140 examples. Cheshire Archaeology

In light of that, perhaps we need to review the reason for scarcity of barrows on the Wirral being due to land/farming use, since the intense form of agriculture, suggested as being a possible reason for removing such structures is most prevalent in the Cheshire Plain, yet a significant number of Bronze Age burials survived. This invites us to ask again, why the Wirral seeems to have such an absence of these structures?

Very interesting what you say about archaeological preference operating that appears to have overlooked and under resourced due investigation on the Wirral for the period in question. That said barrows form such an impression on the land, its hard to conceive that those structures which do exist, have not already been known to successive generations on the Wirral. If the reported barrows of Storeton and Raby are the only verifiable examples, and given the questions on farming being responsible for their seemingly mass disappearence, then a larger question emerges as to the location/existence of Bronze Age, or Neolothic, burials on the Wirral.

Deano, thanks for sharing that reference

Errain, again the reason for Cheshire's barrows being far more numerous than Wirral (in my opinion) is the lack of research in the area, combined with the fact that Wirral is roughly 70sq miles, whilst Cheshire is approx 900sq miles in total. Less than 10% of the size. I personally know of a another three 'possible' BA barrows in Wirral I have identified from LIDAR and Aerial photography, which is the same criteria used to judge the Cheshire barrows (as opposed to confirmed excavation) and as earlier mentioned, place and field names offer more possibilities.

I see the point you are making however, but think other factors such as coastal inundation, ploughing etc will have removed a lot as opposed to Wirral being a 'wild' area. However, prehistory is not my specialism, so I'm just offering an opinion.

Hi Deano, Like you I'm in the arena of sppeculation, has always puzzled me that there is such a lack, upon the Wirral, of Neolithic and Bronze Age structures. I had not previouisly heard of confirmed barrows at either of the two spots mentioned, so look forward to seeing details of those. Another point I ponder on relates to location and environment of such barrows, would not coastal margins of the area at the time, ironically where a significant number of individual finds have ben discovered, have proved a touch unsuitable for siting, what must have been places of special reverence? I'm imaging such areas of the Wirral either being subject to denudation and areas of either tidal flats and or salt marsh; hardly an ideal envirionment to locate such important structures. What do you think? If so would it not follow that a people may position burials further inland, on higher ground?

im of the opinion that much of the northern prehistoric sites would have been out beyond hoylake,

when i was young my dad and i found a few seperate structures/post holes (some with remains of posts) way out amongst the submerged forest

we surveyed and photographed the area but ill be damnded if i can find a copy of it we did send a copy to the liverpool museum for there records but its highly doubtfull they still have it !

are there any oppurtunities for volunteers on excavations in merseyside ?

i have experience albeit from a good while ago. In my youth worked at the Chester "Princess st" and "Hunter street" sites under Mr T Strickland, i also surveyed and monitored the kiln site at Souters lane in Chester for the museum and i also worked at Wroxeter under Dr K.Pretty in the mid 80's for 3 summers

Hi, With your experience hopefully some opportunity could emerge, would be wonderful if you and/or others can shed light into this overlooked aspect of Wirral's past. Even better if a clearer understanding could be agreed on the origins of these stone rows

Jabber, you should consider joining Chester Archaeological Society. They plan a number of Cheshire based excavations as well as field work. They also run some excellent lectures at the Grosvenor Museum. You can also contact Dan Garner who has been running the Heather & Hillforts excavations that are always happy to take volunteers experienced or otherwise.

thanks deano , ill look into contacting them

I'm a council member of CAS, so feel free to ask if you have any queries.

excellent, can u send me the address to apply to etc pls

alternatively i could pm you my name and address


im wondering if you knew my dad, he worked for chester museum about 15 years back ( maybe longer)

Well I'm only 28, so wouldn't have known him personally, but no doubt some of the older chaps in the society will. I will PM you my email address.

thank you

Found the link to the history of the coastline, it is an amazing read although very long.

CLICKY PDF version

CLICKY - Text version

thx dd

gonna take that away with me and give it a read this weekend

Here's the form....apologies if this is classed as advertising!!

http://www.chesterarchaeolsoc.org.uk/CAS_MembershipForm_10-12-10.pdf

thanks deano, will get onto this once i get back from fishing

Any progress on sharing details of those sources associated with barrows at Raby or Storeton? Does anyone have photographs? Are they 'round' or 'long' or 'bell' shaped? More info would be great

Off the top of my head, they are mentioned in the Storeton section of Dodgson's Placenames of Cheshire volume for Wirral and Broxton. Not had time to check other sources.

I can scan this page for you tonight and email if you want.

Deano, thanks for that kind offer, will be interested to see such information. Images too would be great to see.

PM me your email address. Have scanned it.

That's great, have PMd hope you received it ok

sent

Thanks for that Have replied