I've been given this photograph with a request if I can identify its location.

Its probably around 1913 and probably on the Wirral, the woman in the picture was in service in West Kirby at some time and her ancestors were in Liverpool.

I've raised a number of observations on the photograph but I won't list them now as I'd like to hear anybody else's comments or ideas independently.

I would have thought that to be later than 1913
30s ?

I guess 1913 was calculated from her estimated age on the photograph. I'm finding out her year of birth and we can see if we get a consensus on her age.

The poster in the background says "for personal freshness" which is a Lifebuoy Soap (Lever's) logo used in the 1950's but I don't know when they started using that logo. The soap itself was manufactured from 1895.

I would agree with the later date - 20s or 30s, too much leg on display for 1913. Looks like an attractive spot; if not around old New Brighton, pre-sea wall, could be North Wales, maybe not Wirral? There were good train links into Wales.

I agree that its unlikely to be as early as 1913 from the dresses.

I thought Wales looking at the shape of stone used on the smaller buildings, but the extreme flatness and sharp corners of the walls is not very Welsh(?) and I'm not sure about the English poster in Wales pre WW2?

I'm also wondering about how storm-proof it looks considering it is right on the beach, rules out New Brighton?

Buildings are quite dense which also rules out any New Brighton beyond the old prom - and the old prom is missing so can't be there either.

How about looking at the shoes. They were called 'brogues' (I think) but don't know when they became popular. Men and women wore them, but the men didn't have heels on theirs then .
She looks like a picture of my gran (clothes and shoes) in a photo I had, but I don't know when it was taken. Been looking for it. Will let you know if it's found.

Print frock, I'd say 40's early 50's. Looking at the style of the blokes and their haircuts too.

my first impression is that it's not local. North wales is a shout but part of me thinks it could well be south-west england (devon, cornwall, ilfracombe, penzance etc)

I'd agree with that Bandy, also because of the print dress on the left and the style of knitted cardigan. Also the style of coat worn by the woman on the steps. The early 1950's I reckon. (but you know I'm usually wrong)
Does the flag give any clues ?

If they are having a day away, they haven't got much with them, so maybe a caravan holiday in N Wales. It looks a bit hilly too

Yes, I agree with the year thing.

I think the confusion is that the person they thought the photograph was of is the girl by the photographers kit, whereas I think its the woman centre front.

The person was born 1887, they thought the age was about 26 and so they guessed 1913 - I think the woman is about 50 which would make it c1947.

I have a photo of me with my aunties taken in 1947
and their outfits and shoes are very similar to these.
I think the buildings rule Wirral out - most like
N. Wales.

How about West Kirby or Hoylake there have been lots of changes to the front down there and originally some of the roads led to the beach.

If you look at the video from the 30's which has been linked on another topic you can see the style of people in the 30's so it would confirm the 40's supposition.

Me being me, examined all sorts of aspects in the photograph's content - and missed anything to do with the people.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the negative is roughly 2 1/4" by 3 1/4" which may be meaningful to some?

Also the women originated from the Potteries.

That size neg. is 120 film, used in many cameras, from simple Box Brownies to quite sophisticated cameras. It was one of the most popular sizes until 35mm cameras became more affordable. The beauty of 120 was that it was big enough to make contact prints from, whereas 35mm required enlarging and was more popular with those who had their own darkroom (usually a blacked-out bathroom).

For what it's worth, does this look possible.. won't ay why or where atm. so you are not brainwashed.

LLanbedrog, I'll check.

Nope, buildings aren't that close to the sand. It is an aspect that is weird, high density of buildings right by the sand.

The image is supposed to be Pwllheli.

Reason :

Probably no car.

Day trippers by coach or train would have more luggage with them.

So must have had some shelter or refreshments somewhere.

Butlins at Pwllheli opened in 1950's

If the camera negs that Chriskay says could be developed in a darkroom. The photographer could have been the official Butlin's photographer. Taking pics to buy later.(That's what they did).

Just a couple of comments.
I can't see any photographer's kit, mentioned earlier.
the picture was not taken with a cheap Box Brownie or other fixed focus camera because the buildings in the background are out of focus.
Granny, shoes; that type, when worn by a man, were known as "co-respondent" shoes, especially if they had some white on them, because they were worn by professional "co-respondents" who were employed by couples to provide evidence of infidelity in divorce cases. The shoes were easily identified by the private detective, employed to obtain evidence.

DD was referring to the big bag, box and tripod(I think) next to the 26yr old girl who looks more like 16yrs. The one showing her shorts.

Interesting about the shoes. The tricks they got up to in those days ! Do you think the lady was a "co-respondent" ?

What were the shoes called if worn by a woman ? Did they become Oxford shoes ? There again, they could have been donkeys years old. Heeled and soled, heeled and soled, heeled and soled.

The greatest disappointment of the day is; Chriskay might be trying to say that the skills are lacking for a career as a freelance detective. That's it. Thrown the hat in ...off to bed.

The thing which looks like a tripod is just a few spades stuck in the sand and the bags look nothing special; one seems to be a holdall and the other a small attache case.
As far as I know, there were only ever male co-respondents. Of course, it could be a very clever male co-respondent disguised as a woman. The shoes he/she's wearing look to me like a semi-brogue. They are definitely not Oxfords.
Yes, I was trying not to be too cruel when putting you off the idea of becoming a private detective.

To the right of the group who are sitting directly in front of the steps there is a tripod with possibly a camera on top under a cloth and a few bags.

The focus looks strange, the building with the poster is in-focus at the bottom and out of focus at the chimney but there isn't that great a change in range. Likewise with the nearest stone building, bottom ok, top not. The negative was bodge-scanned on a 35mm scanner and 3 images stitched together.

Yep, Pwllheli not Llanbedrog, sorry - that's changed a lot since I was there but that was about 45 years ago, I'll check out a 1950's map later.

I don't think those building would correspond to a Butlins site? They tended to use rehashed Prisoner of War camps or build new and were isolated from local buildings.

Our posts crossed, DD. If you enlarge the pic, I think you'll see it's not a tripod.
OK, the scanning method may account for the funny focus.

Shhhhhhhhhhh (should be in bed )! DD, I think he might be right about the tripod.

I'd say not Pwllheli, the layout of the buildings and their height in relation to the beach is wrong.

What does CA mean on that flag?

Whats getting my attention, is the Pole in the center/right ? Near the Hut.
Is it black and white, or red and white, as it looks distinctive about its possible location.



Full size image : Click Me

The negative is the wrong way around

Yes, that square flag pole has me intrigued - it doesn't look very strong so again a pointer that this must be somewhere with no storms.

Picture isn't the wrong way round - the poster say "for Personal freshness" the lifebuoy soap logo we think?

What is it that's hanging on the side of the hut ? I'm only viewing it on my phone but they look like birds of some sort.

I am doubting myself now! I was going by the CA on the flag. Most flags at that time being made of bunting and sewn together by hand the letters sewn on both sides so as to read right.

The poster looks a bit "Risqué" for the 1940/50's. A woman doing yoga in a bra ? Clarification needed please.

Sun must be shining from the right hand side of the picture, calculating time of day...south/south west position ?

Maybe Dusty is correct and we should be looking at the East Coast

Life jackets ?

That hefty looking square section banded pole could be the support for a "Telegraph Cable" sign. Diamond shaped sign, usually yellow with black script. The poles - if I remember were black and yellow banded. Located at where an undersea telegraph/telephone cable comes ashore.

I agree with Dilly. They look like a couple of brace of pheasants on the side of the hut ! Strange.............?

How about 'waterwings' for those who remember them ? We wore them as kids, although a little more up to date than these.

It would appear to be a hut where there is assistance available if needed. I've been trying to find what C A might mean, but Coastguard Agency only came about later than then , I think.

Thats my bucket list stonewalled, get something right on WW and find an answer before Bert are a forlorn hope.

Isn't that your front fastening bra Granny ??

I guessed it was a tripod with spades, walking sticks or whatever as well.

No idea on side of hut, life jackets is about the best guess.

After passing on the comments from this thread, the enquirer has agreed it could be around 1947, in which case (as suspected by many), this photograph is probably in Wales as they were evacuated there - no clues as to whereabouts.

The enquirer also now thinks the younger girl could be the daughter of the older woman and would be his wife's mother.

While Wales is a big place, I think I will find it fairly easy to locate now.

The flag pole may not be for flags as cannot see on the visible sides a means for raising lowering. Wonder if it was some sort of landmark for boats to head for although it doesn't look a boaty beach (if not the cable marker). seems to be some cables on the house roof behind the hut.
Possibly a beach where the high tide line is a long way out as big houses seem so close to the shoreline. On a bus or train route.?

Mop on top of hut?

What could the hut be - deckchair hirer or lifeguards?

The first places which came to my mind when I saw the photo was Eat Yorkshire round Robin Hoods Bay way, or Nefyn at Wales. Those two places have quaint whitewashed cottages close to the beach.

Did a complete sweep of the Welsh coast last night, only about 8 possible places - it is extremely rare to have that density of buildings direct on a beach.

I didn't check very well round the South Wales coast like Swansea , Cardiff, Barry etc as they would be pointless places to evacuate to.

The only real prospective one I found was Aberdaron and I'm 80% sure it isn't there. Very similar style of buildings, directly on the beach etc.

Even a very sheltered location like Aberdaron has a problem as this 2014 photograph shows (I think the sea wall was built after 1947).

Robin Hood Bay also came to my mind, but thought it would have been too far away. The huts on the beaches back then were for anyone needing help or advice and maybe first aid. I remember them being at some resorts we used to visit.

Pinz, if your eyes are that darn good, what is on the poster inside the hut ? Looks like a white cross on it. Xray vision is obviously a unique quality you have been blessed with !

It's a bit fuzzy Granny, but it looks like.....

+++++++++++++++++++++

The ACME Bedroom Ceiling Mirror Co.

Local Representative Miss De Meanor

Discretion Assured.

Telephone No. (Unclear)

+++++++++++++++++++++



I "could" be wrong of course. My eyesight is getting worse.

It looks like Robin Hood Bay in North Yorkshire to me

Pinz

Sun would have to be coming from the North, Robin Hood only has/has buildings by the sand where the quay is, sands aren't that good and brickwork is a completely different style.

Hi Pablo


DD, have you followed the railways ? My understanding was that many went by rail from Liverpool Limestreet when evacuated but that could be wrong information.

You need one of these. Pinz probably has a few, amongst his crap.

Evacuation from Liverpool

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/kids/games-quizzes/blitz/1400_info.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/51/a3069551.shtml

I don't think this woman would fall into the categories for any evacuation programs.

I'm wondering if she went with the West Kirby household that she was in service with.

Maybe we are getting our wires crossed. You say this photo was probably in Wales, as they were evacuated there. You were also looking for places they could have evacuated to. Now you say you doubt this woman would have fallen into the category of any evacuation programme. ??

So, I'm pretty confused.

They did evacuate those with disabilities too.

Looking at the woman ,she could have some sort of a uniform on, as she is wearing a dress, rather than skirt and blouse. The tights and shoes could also be part of a uniform, and that tripod made up of spades and walking sticks, could be related.

Many people evacuated themselves, a person in service often went with their employers who decided to move and were not part of an evacuation program.

Even if they were part of an evacuation program they were spread far and wide, even the smallest of villages took evacuees.

I agree that she appears to be wearing a service (as in servant not military) uniform.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned that she had four children by the age of 44 (1931).

I now realise that I skipped a decade, she would have to be 60 for this to be 1947. It has got a post-WW2 feel about the photograph.

When I referred to the walking sticks, it was a way of suggesting she could have been a live in nurse for someone.

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well.

Same thing, nurse/maid/companion = in service.

Point taken.

Could the location be Meols?

Doubt it.! Not unless most buildings in the picture have been demolished.

?

I see where you are coming from with Meols - when the sea wall was built a lot of beach was reclaimed, the orginal beach went further inland.

There was a building called Sandheys which was built on an "island" in the middle of the beach I think - this is now where Greenhays Road is.

But, no, it can't be Meols - the density of buildings (some are even three storey) doesn't tie up.

I'm really struggling to find anywhere in the UK with this density of buildings direct onto the beach (looking at 1911, 1950 and modern maps), most are usually either the single string of houses along the coast or have buildings further apart. This seems to be at least three deep inland

@granny This is highly embarrassing - all along I remember being on sands when I was young with woooden steps down to the beach - I completely forgot that I spent time in the Isle of Man (my families homeland) - Port Erin looks very promising.

It is, but I can't put up the google map for some reason.

Port Erin in the 1920's



And here is the beach hut on the right of this picture - well done granny.

If anyone wants to see it on Google Map :

Shore Road, Port Erin, Isle of Man


One of the oldest houses in Port Erin circa. 1734.

Here is a picture of the hill as it is today.

Well done Granny. Have a big cigar!

Thanks Pinz. Chriskay, clearly underestimated the skills of a freelance detective.
Lesson learnt, 'One can't judge a book by it's cover'

Well done super sleuths. I see Wales has moved! Still haven't repaired the stone wall--just whitewashed it. Cant believe the little shed thing is still standing by side of house

Sorry I underestimated your sleuthing abilities, Granny; well done. Keep an eye out for those co-respondent shoes.

I am in touch with Unilever Archives to try and date poster, in the mean time, here is another using the same logo.

*applauds* Great detective work, there!

Respect! Well done, fantastic bit of work.

It was the chimney stacks, those on DD's picture seemed a bit different or unusual.
I started looking for anything that might throw a bit of light on them. A site came up with a picture very like DD's and an article saying 'typical parapet gables' in Douglas, Isle of Man. With that, then started a search of the resorts in the Isle of Man.

Just lucky really.

Not luck at all; just great persistence.