Having taken a look at a thread on Woodchurch I noticed on one of Bert's excellent map extracts (a link to which is added) reference to a 'stone' http://anony.ws/image/DOeY Curious indeed, it looks like it's sited in Arrowe Park?

Is this the stone in question? http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2949643


Anyone have more information on that item?

There's a few in the area, (maps below)

There doesn't appear to be any pattern to them that might suggest religious or cult, etc. Perhaps they are just boundary or land markers.

Map 2, stones marked red, sorry if I've missed any.

Hi Bert, thanks for sharing, what curiosities they appear, I have read such to be either former gate-posts or linked to boundaries, be interested to see any maps that clearly links the position of such stones to old field boundaries. Meanwhile I came across this tantalizing paper, which poses the question 'Wirral's Stone Circles, Or Were They?' http://www.charlesclosesociety.org/files/Issue95page47.pdf

Stone and gatepost positions are made much more complicated by farmers moving them to use them as cattle rubbing stones.

I'll be having a further look at the two circles though, good find and a good article.

DD, yes indeed the recycling and repositioning of stones surely happened over time, more information and images will help on the subject. The article is indeed interesting and recalled the other thread on 'stone alignments' in nearby Bidston, that possible circles are being considered takes the discussion to exciting speculation

Bert could you kindly post/email some high resolution copies of the map showing those stones? I would be interested in taking a closer look.

Not really Erainn, sorry, the more I zoom the less area you will see.

Thanks Bert I understand, pity, is there a way to identify co-ordinates for those stones?

Hi Erainn

Not sure if the link will work but if you go here you can see very sharp images of the stones marked on Bert's map.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=53.3623&lon=-3.0995&layers=6

You can also overlay a mordern map on top. With the bonus of a Georeferenced position, using Side by Side maps.

You could also have a fiddle about here, not great though.

http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithemaps/TwinMaps.aspx?township=EDT_19-2

Hello 'OH' thanks very much, shall defo give that look

Bert, cheers for that link

that is the business! very handy indeed

I'm just running a few calculations to check for indication of possible alignments...reason being is that to my eyes they seem to show a direction towards the North East....if these stones are simply gate-posts, either in original position or relocated, then should they show up as being closely aligned in terms of astronomical events it would be something of a remote coincidence in which farmers just happened to place them so accurately..early days of course and who knows could all be down to chance

Others in the Clatterbridge area, may help or hinder.

Cheers Bert, will check those out, presently looking into the frequency and distribution of stones over Arrowe/Irby way as they are tantalizing

There's many around Heswall Hills/Heswall cum Oldfield, not sure if they are on the side by side map, try 1910 on Cheshire site.

Thanks Bert

A few more just off the map.

Interesting to see those Bert, the pattern of distribution is scattered, they seem located with no obvious connection to boundary or farm buildings. Positioned too upon a hill, we cannot say for sure, however if these were megalithic structures then not all such are found in aligned row. If we rule out more probable origins, relocated posts or remnants of former boundaries, then if they were neolithic it could be that hill held some special significance? Of course isolated standing stones are not uncommon in Scandinavia too and is it equally possible that those stones were erected by those Norse who settled in that area of The Wirral? Fun to speculate

I remember looking at an old map of Wallasey and seeing a couple of stones marked; never realised there were so many around Wirral! Very intriguing... I wonder if any remain in place? I think the Wallasey ones would have been swamped by building development, but others in farmland might just possibly have been left as rubbing stones for cattle etc.

Hi Greenwood, it would be wonderful to get some actual sitings, along with GPS co-ordinates and photos of stones and surrounding horizon. I'm working on the stone 'rows' in Arrowe and initial findings are intriguing..stay tuned

Just wondering if these stones could have been enclosure marker stones, after all the sirs and the lords and the vicars could not get hold of the land fast enough once parliament had it's dues paid.

Dave, good point and it may well be an explanation, as I'm sure not all stones on various maps indicate being aligned. One reason I'm looking into possible alignments, if that shows to hold some credibility, then it would be quite a coincidence that land-holders/grabbers would have sited stones with such a precision to be aligned on a particular astronomical event... others of course may well have more prosaic origins such as marking boundaries or land ownership...the particular area I'm checking has a very interesting frequency and distribution of stones, that on initial examination are showing up tantalizing results....

I once read a book, now that's a shock, where the owners of the particular land would walk the boundary's each year, Thurstaston hill when it was enclosed and Birkenhead council was given land the councillors and mayor walked the boundary, same with Bidston hill, they would have to have markers and fencing I assume to do this.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2949643



http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2949675

Gateposts ? Mighty sized gates !

If you have a copy of the Godfrey edition Old Ordnance Survey map, Cheshire Sheet 7:10, of Wallasey Village 1898 (marked 1899 inside), have a look in the bottom right hand corner. Between Lindens and Newlands, five stones are marked. They look like two pairs and a single, aligned roughly NE/SW. Down to the left (sorry, not very technical with references!) across Breck Road not far away, an Old Quarry is marked.

Dave, yep beating the bounds....Greenwood thanks for that, will look at that...

Greenwood, take a look at the OS 1" 1885 Hills map of the same area and you may notice some curious markings...

DD, thanks for sharing that, as I was just posting to Greenwood take a look at the 1885 1" OS map of the same area, the cartographer has drawn some curious looking objects...could they be stones?

Here's my post 'Megaliths On The Wirral?' Asking questions and setting the context https://intothegreenblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/05/megaliths-on-the-wirral/ There will be a Part 2 once I have concluded looking into possible alignments

So here's the results of my researches into the stones linked with Arrowe Park https://intothegreenblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/11/summer-solstice-alignment-in-arrowe-park/ Hope it proves of interest and stimulates others to look more closely at what may well be an ancient astronomical alignment on the Wirral. Happy to discuss the subject here

Some really interesting info in there. Had me checking my diary to see if i was in work for the summer solstice. I 'm off and i can't wait to check this out. Keep up the good work.

Hi Stegga, If you or others are able to make it to that location for Summer Solstice sunrise then the findings would be realistically tested. Touch wood as they say

....Do bear in mind though that most of the stones have been lost and the two remaining I have yet to check for any possible alignment. Will post an update on that.

Anyone interested in surveying Arrowe Park's Enigmatic Standing Stones? https://intothegreenblog.wordpress....-to-survey-arrowe-parks-standing-stones/

Hi, just to let you know that having calculated and processed the data for the remaining stone located in Arrowe Park (53, 21 9 N and 3, 5, 8 W) it is showing a very close Solar Declination of +23 Degrees. This suggests it, like others once in that region, could be aligned to the Summer Solstice sunrise.

Greg Dawson's book on Arrowe states that:

'Whilst walking through the park many old gatestoops can be seen. These are left over from the days when this area was farm fields enclosed by hedges. The old hedges were pulled out and the ditches filled in, but the sandstone stoops still mark the ancient gateways'.

Considering his family farmed in the area for many generations, and his depth of local knowledge, I'm inclined to think any other explanation for the stones is just playing join the dots.

YinYang Indeed they may well be gate posts or boundary markers alternatively their placement could have older origins and function, we are in a position of asking questions and looking at what could be alignments. That such purpose has been established at many megalithic sites is beyond question, also it is well known that standing stones were often recycled, relocated or left in position and used as field markers/gate posts. The stones themselves can offer no evidence, so we are left with local knowledge and/or cartographic details, which is itself limited beyond a certain time. With these stones, most of which have disappeared what we do have is an interesting frequency and distribution, in addition there seems to be positioning related to Summer Solstice with a number of them. This is either a rare coincidence, which can happen, or suggestive of an intent of purpose. When considering reports on the lost stone circle at nearby Overchurch it may well be that the Wirral had such structures and alignments. Of course folk are free to interpret as they choose, that's the beauty of discussion

If a stone is local stone (i.e. sandstone, in the case of Wirral), and is the size and shape of a gatepost; on land which is known to have been farmland, and which corresponds to field boundaries on a tithe map; then I'd say it is precisely that - nothing more than a gatepost.

If the stone is of unusual size, or is carved or decorated with pictish symbols, or cup marks etc., and stands in an area with associated archaeological finds (or crop marks) then perhaps you are on to something a little more interesting. But, given that so little is known of Wirral's pre-history, it is very tempting for people to project their own beliefs and desires onto this blank canvas of the past. And if people are intent on interpreting every rock or gatepost as significant and as part of a wider 'sacred' landscape, then this says more about us (the people of today) then anything truly authentic about the past.

Yin Yang indeed there is a seductive logic to the 'if it walks like a duck' it must be a waterbird, however with the stones in question it may not be as simple as applying such reasoning. Why so? Well many of them were sited not in the area now marked as Arrowe Park, with the possible implication that on its formation they were 'fossils' indicating some previous farming boundary or gating. Quite a number were marked in pre-existing fields, often sited away from marked boundaries, in addition they are sometimes positioned within a short distance of each other and do appear to have an orientation. We also should consider the geo-positioning and their relationship to Solar Declination, some of these stones, albeit on initial examination, are suggesting a Summer Solstice alignment. Now taken together this is not conclusive evidence, the discussion of these features has, both on this Forum and on the Blog I posted, been clearly framed in a speculative context. What it does do however is to raise interesting questions, one of which is of course why would the Wirral not have any megalithic structures? Regarding shapes and marking of stones we need to exercise caution in that not all standing stones come supplied with obvious pictograms, and as to shape such stones can and have been reworked over the centuries. As I mentioned the material nature or surface of stones themselves offer little indication of original function. That is not to say, and no one has, that such stones were used not as agricultural posts or boundaries. Cartographic sources, in terms of detail become of little use beyond a certain time, in this case it would appear to be the maps of the late 19th Century, prior to that details of individual stones seem rather absent. This means that as verifiable source such maps offer questionable value relating to function of such objects.

In closing I think it only fair to clarify that no one is asserting "every rock or gatepost as significant and as part of a wider 'sacred' landscape". Anyone reading the thread or indeed the Blog will soon appreciate the questions being asked relate to a possible alignment of three stones. The matter of 'sacred landscape', as questioned regarding possible megalithic rows which may have exited in that part of the Wirral, should not be misunderstood as some vast Carnac-like vista with hundreds of stone rows, such an interpretation was neither suggested or implied.

I am in agreement with you on the relative lack of knowledge concerning the ancient history of the Wirral, however absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence. We need also to remember that human activity over such a period of time, especially land use has eliminated or obscured much archeology. No doubt this has happened locally and explains the paucity of structures from the Neolithic and Bronze Age, yet the area itself was no doubt home to such cultures, had a local supply of sandstone and areas of higher land on which to site monuments of various form or purpose.

It could be that a number of stones marked on the map were part of such a construction, equally it may well be that they were of later construction and use, alternatively they may well date from ancient times and have been reworked and repositioned for farming purposes. Clearly you have a fixed view on the subject, I am simply questioning and remaining open to a range of possibilities, including an alignment. Anyway I note your position and respect your decision take a different perspective, although I won't exchange further as it is unfair to monopolize the thread.

Although I agree with YinYang that is easy to over-read things, one thing that has always puzzled me are the lack of extensive settlements on the Wirral, there are so many reasons why Wirral makes a natural place for settlements. I'll attempt a list.

Weather/climate - much of the Wirral being in the rain/wind shadow of the North Wales mountain range gives us lot of natural protection, being coastal prevents severe cold spells.

Coast - loads of it giving supplies of salt, fish and transport.

Geology - supplies of easy to work sandstone as well as clay, coal and I think harder rocks in some places.

Water - plenty of fresh water streams, small lakes etc.

Wildlife - seems to thrive on the Wirral for many of the same reasons mentioned in other sentences. Reasonable depths of soil in many places for the various burrowing animals.

Drainage - much of the land does not flood.

Topology, we have a good mixture of hills, valleys and level lands.

Wood - trees thrive, though its difficult to tell what the natural woods/forests of the Wirral were because of various programs of forestation and de-forestation in the more recent past.

Shelter - the two sandstone ridges provide local shelter.

I'm sure there are more but to mind my the relatively mild weather would seem to be the strongest reason, only the western winds bring us bad weather.

Perhaps ancient settlements were coastal, the sea being used for fishing, transport and trading, and have been lost due to sea level change? Meols was known as an Iron Age port, after all - but you only have to think about the old pics of the petrified forest to realise that a lot has been lost. Inland Wirral might have been heavily wooded apart from the higher ridges, hard to move around, risky due to wild animals etc, so people might have stayed near the coast and little trace now remains of their presence. Also, modern deveopment may have obliterated traces. Mesolithic temporary/seasonal sites have been found here and there - one on Green House Farm land for example - and a Romano-British farmstead was found on the edge of Irby. Who knows what else is yet to be discovered?

Indeed Greenwood, I had an excellent article on the coastal change (including the bridge to Ireland) which I couldn't find last time I looked for it. The timeline of changes completely escape me, I need to search for that article again.

I agree, a very good point Greenwood. I would very much like to read the article too if you find it DD, would you mind posting the link or pm me if and when you do find it, thanks

Is this of interest Erainn ?

As the Celts were into their astrology,, could it be that they represented a copy of the constellations on the land for rituals ?
As the Egyptians did when building the pyramids inline with Orion's belt.

http://cura.free.fr/xx/17bouten.html

Hi Granny, It's accepted that the Celts did have a knowledge and veneration of the stars, of course they emerged much later than the period of megaliths, but would have regarded such sites with a certain awe and respect. The possible alignment that seems to be suggested by rows of stone marked on historic maps of the Wirral, that have since been lost, looks to be Solar. One way to examine this further would be via field observation at those precise locations during the appropriate date of sunrise (cloud conditions notwithstanding) with markers of around 5 to 6 feet replicating the position of those stones.

If these stones are anything more than gateposts then I'm curious to know why nobody has ever picked up on this before. Why have no Wirral historians ever written about this precise same subject? Why do no published histories speak of Wirral possessing standing stones, or a possible stone circle? You would think that someone like David Randall in his book 'The Search for Old Wirral' would have at least noted them, or that their presence would have been recorded during archaeological surveys of the area by specialists like Gill Chitty, or the team behind the more recent Historic Characterisation Projects. Apart from a few years living and working in France, I have spent most of my life locally and never once heard or read anything about Wirral having standing stones or a stone circle. I would, however, be delighted to hear if any authoritative or reliable references do exist.

Might I suggest that one problem with using historic maps is that they do not indicate the size of any stones marked upon them. The fact that a 'stone' is featured on a map tells us very little about the nature or purpose of that stone, or indeed it's antiquity unless cartographers specifically indicate it as being an 'Ancient Monument'. So when we talk about the word 'stone' being marked on a map do we really know what it means?

Should we be surprised if stones featured on old maps appear to sometimes align? Bearing in mind that Wirral was once covered with farmland and probably had hundreds (if not thousands) of gateposts and boundary markers, and that fields being generally rectilinear and often grouped in parallel (or continuous with each other) would have had many gateposts on similar alignments. And given the large numbers of these stones and their distribution, then statistically at least a proportion of these stones might be construed as aligning with some sort of astronomical aspect or feature.

On that argument, all history has been done and there is no more to be found.

I'm interested in where this leads, I believe a lot of the stones will be gateposts, boundary markers, scratching post etc, but you never know.

We still haven't fully resolved two of the established stone rows on the Wirral, there are at least three theories for one (Bidston observatory calibration, cattle guides) and the other is presumed (driveway markers). The former as far as I can was only re-discovered by a Wikiwirral person at a time when we were lucky enough to have a keen researcher on hand.

It is precisely the location, relation to the horizon and topography, along with any possible correlation with significant observable celestial events that offers insight. Maps showing stones, while unable to offer conclusive evidence, can indicate possible alignments. Looking at those maps within that area there appears to be some suggestion of stone rows, more research needs to be done, especially field-work where direct observations can be measured and recorded. There's no reason to imagine that the region did not have a Neolithic society, including structures and monuments that connected to the solar or lunar rising. Has every trace of that culture been obliterated by time and mans's activity? Did 19th Century maps record some stones (now disappeared) that may have had a very different original function and purpose than that of boundary markers or gateposts?

But don't forget the skies aren't everything, with the Wirral having Mountains visible those landmarks could be significant as well.

Imagine if some Welsh Druids periodically go to the top of a mountain and light a fire, this could be visible from the Wirral and have as much, if not more impact than a star. Also don't forget that without street lights, the amount of visible stars is huge and fairly mundane.

Hi DD, horizon and natural features no doubt played their part in observing the rising/setting of the Sun, Moon and certain stars at key dates. That ancient peoples were aware and marked as sacred key periods, stars and constellations is given some weight by archeological artifacts such as the Nebra Sky Disk and Coligny Calendar. Particular times were critical, especially the Cross-Quarter days of Samhain, Imbolg, Beltane and Lughnasad, at those dates certain high-magnitude stars had Helical Risings and would have been very visible indeed. Such bodies were no doubt held in great esteem. Fascinating as it is and certainly mountains such as Moel Fammau would perhaps have been venerated and possibly used for Beltane fires, the stones in question suggest a possible alignment towards the ENE, with some in particular indicating an orientation towards the Summer Solstice. Be it a built-in function or happy circumstance it will be interesting to survey those precise locations on that date to record in more detail.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/...aracterisation-project/Wirral-Part-6.pdf

I have read this recent assessment of Wirral history/archaeology by the professionals and can find no mention of standing stones at Upton (Overchurch), Arrowe Park, or Woodchurch...

I disagree. There is plenty to still be found but there is a big difference between the material available for study for recorded history compared to pre-history.

It is not any surprise to read that such a report makes no reference to standing stones in the area, in itself that does not constitute evidence that none originally existed. Such a document is based upon previously recorded data or cartography, it is not a definitive archeological survey of the region. That the Wirral had neither Neolithic or Bronze-Age communities, along with their ritualistic culture seems unlikely. Of course field evidence has been lost over the centuries with farming and urbanization. That though should not be seen as proof that such cultures did not populate the region and should there ever be a comprehensive geophysical survey of the peninsular we may well yet discover that Neolithic or Bronze-Age people settled there. As to the stones in question it's important to consider that were any indeed megaliths over time their original function could have been lost to folk memory. What were known (and used as) say in the 17th or 18th Century as gateposts would to the local community have no ancient history. It is possible that such stones could have been overgrown for centuries prior to land clearance for farming during the Medieval, to be redressed, relocated or used in situ either as posts or boundary stones. In such a situation local people could not be expected to regard them as anything else.

I always thought that they found Neolithic cremated remains not far from the "column" or what it really is a sea mark in West Kirby when they were building it

These are not cremated remains....

Click onto the 'record ID' it gives a map for some of them if you scroll down a bit.


https://finds.org.uk/news/theyworkforyou/finds/constituency/Wirral+West/broadperiod/NEOLITHIC

It does for this one.

https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/218841

...the classic "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Very true, but that just leaves us with our blank canvas of pre-history on which we can project whatever we wish it to be.

Might I suggest to the learned blogger that if he cast his gaze just a little to the west of the Overchurch site, early maps show a cross (or, dare I say it, possible standing stone of some description) at Saughall Massie (close to the ancient bridge). This cross is clearly shown on Bryant's Map of 1831, and is of some antiquity as field-names from the 17th century record the name 'Crosse Tree Flat' associated with this area.

Perhaps, in the absence of any definite evidence of the stones at Overchurch being anything more than grave slabs or gateposts, it would be interesting to examine the relationship of this feature to the Overchurch site. Especially as it was clearly an upright and not a recumbent stone; has some demonstrable antiquity; and may be early Christian if related to the original chapel at Overchurch. It would, of course, be a leap of faith to suggest any kind of earlier date for this stone but I'm sure that wont stop some people trying...

YY thanks for the suggestions, am happy to keep an open-mind, after all we are not in the arena of certainty, and no one is affirming specific dates for the stones in question. I guess we are all engaged in reasonable speculation and posing questions that challenge a convention that all such structures were either gate-posts or boundary markers.

What we also have is not a 'blank-canvas' but recorded archeological evidence that the area was inhabited during the Neolithic. That being the case such people would have been expected to follow their ritualistic culture and along with that raised megalithic strictures.

The possible alignment of stones, no longer existing, marked on 19th Century maps raise some tantalizing questions, we can only approach these via careful field-surveys and running a number of calculations and models to check for an indication of astronomic alignment. I hope that anyone with an interest in this topic who is based on The Wirral may consider carrying out such work, especially as we approach the Summer Solstice.

As to structures which have place-names that describe them as a cross, and given the proximity to a religious establishment it would be a flight of fancy to dismiss the purpose and origins of such a stone as being other than an early/medieval Christian item. That said it must be remembered that there are examples of standing stones upon which were later re-worked into crosses. I doubt anyone on this thread is declaring that to be the case here.

What evidence is there of Neolithic settlement? Do a few flint scatters represent evidence of actual settlement??

Your ideas are all perfectly harmless, and let's face it we already have Viking re-enactments in Arrowe Park, but it will be positively cringe-worthy to think modern day druids may start turning up there to worship at gateposts.

Might I suggest that if you need any help with proving your ideas you should contact Peter France.

Just adding another bit Yin Yang. Can guess what you think but Erainn might like it.


http://www.charlesclosesociety.org/files/Issue95page47.pdf

Here's what I think granny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acx4KYBS12c

(you might want to skip the ad)

...admittedly, Spinal Tap probably know a lot more than I do about stone circles and the 'megalithic strictures' to which Erainn refers, but I'm not convinced in the slightest there is evidence for them on Wirral.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6e/9b/5d/6e9b5da04213025b4ff6ab9451136640.jpg

Well now, Yin Yang. I was there about 1970. Did a little dance and gave the stones a jolly good rub.

It is they which filled me with my magical powers. Didn't need to phone the 666 number.

That's very interesting, gran. I never realised that by phoning the Australian Police Force one could acquire such wonderous powers!

I really think that you and Erainn should team up together. What with your special gift and Erainn's dogged determination I'm sure the two of you could soon get to the bottom of the Woodchurch 'Stone' mystery. You could be like Wirral's very own Time Team...

Haven't you been keeping an eye on all the digging going on around the Landican/Thingwall area, what with the new power cable they've been putting in place? Maybe they've found traces of the ancient history of your area.

They could have found traces of all sorts of things. Dead Vikings included.
Have you seen the route they have taken ? Through fields crossing Storeton Road, Brimstage Road, A540 to Neston and onwards ?

http://www.awjmarine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Western-Link-News-2012.pdf

Will they dismantle the ugly overhead pylons that are suggested to cause cancer, and then leave us with the 'high voltage' underground cables, that are suggested to cause cancer ?
We should all be doing the jitterbug around here, when they switch it on

Bring back the Vikings I say, with their barbeques, log burners and chimeneas.

...the only archaeology they seem worried about is in the area around Puddington. No mention of your area. But yes, the power cable is a concern for more reasons than one. It will certainly play havoc with your "vibes" gran and, as for the Barnston Fiddler you've been researching, I believe his next performance is going to be electric!

I can only assume that, although the power cable runs directly through Wirral, nothing of any significance has been found (or at least reported). The trench they've been digging is certainly big enough, you'd think they would find something. You only have to look at how much earth they shifted building their compound at Landican, and all seemingly without regard for stone circles, or your beloved Vikings.

Here's a link with more detailed maps and updated information concerning the cable project and it's impact on the area in question...


http://www.westernhvdclink.co.uk/doc-wirral-cable.aspx

Thank you.

I am not sure that using fallacious arguments, such as 'appealing to ridicule' is either a mature or courteous attitude, and seems very out-of-place here. Especially when people are usually tolerant of and welcome a diversity of views. Let us recall also that what has been presented on this subject has been very firmly within the arena of speculation. Legitimate questions have been asked regarding stones marked on 19th Century maps, their origin and function is a matter of discussion. I am happy to respect any and all views on the subject, however I shall not waste time responding to posts that are off-topic or barely disguised efforts to 'Troll'.

Granny, I am aware of and have referenced that article previously, thanks though for kindly suggesting it.

I think you will find none of the posts are off topic. The moderator would step in if they were. People questioning your comments or disagreeing with you is certainly not trolling. It seems, as usual, that you are only happy if people support your ideas.

I also think you will find I have tried to give some useful pointers and made suggestions for you to follow up. But if you wish to take offence...

Yin Yang,

References to 'Modern day Druids, and videos of Spinal Tap' hardly constitutes reasonable or salient contributions, such offerings are indeed fallacious, in that they are seeking to ridicule a topic. On that basis I think it is entirely sensible to state that I am uninterested in addressing such nonsense, which is in nature seeking to 'troll' or deflect attention.

Now let us return to the matter-in-hand. Firstly, I did not begin this discussion to prove the correctness or validity that such stones were without doubt evidence of Neolithic structures, or that those marked on old maps were definitive proof of alignment. Anyone caring to read my posts in a detached and careful manner will clearly note that I discuss the subject very much within a speculative context, I am asking questions, considering various interpretations, including more prosaic function such as gateposts or boundary markers. I have maintained a position of being open-minded, allowing for the purpose of discussion, the intriguing possibility that maybe such structures reveal an alignment and wondered if they were constructed or sited for an astronomical purpose. That is entirely reasonable, as much so as claiming that such stones could only have been linked to field markers and later farming.

We are limited to questioning, as the majority of stones recorded on 19th century maps no longer exist, archaeo-astronomy, which is a valid academic discipline can (and has on many cases) enable us to establish if a site is connected with a celestial event. As I have mentioned there appear to be alignments of stones marked on such maps which are suggesting a link to the sunrise at Summer Solstice. Now this may or may not be the case, I am simply reporting the results of calculations based on the data of those sites, surrounding topography and astronomic information. People can make up their own minds, some could do their own fieldwork on site to establish more clearly if such associations are entirely credible.

It may be difficult for you to concede but the reality is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' in this matter and I for one have not sought to prove anything. I am certainly not interested in convincing you of one particular view or another. The questions raised are in themselves valid, it is a matter of recorded fact that many megalithic structures have been shown to be aligned to astronomic events. It is highly likely that the Wirral was once populated by Neolithic peoples, who no doubt were fascinated by the movements of the Sun, Moon and stars. There is a possibility that like others during that period they erected structures to mark and/honor celestial events. The geology of the Wirral provided a significant supply of sandstone, a suitable material for standing stones.

Now such facts in themselves do not form conclusive proof that the aforementioned stones were megalithic items, what they do however is to inform questions and attract a curiosity, could such structures have been linked to ancient astronomy? Were they aligned? Had they been sited to mark the Summer Solstice? Simply questions, not affirmations of fact!

It is you who has chosen 'assertion', rather than speculation and in so doing have demonstrated to readers an emphatic refusal to entertain any function beyond gate-posts or boundary markers. Such is your right of course and I respect that however that attitude places you in an interesting position. Namely that as someone who, when presented with speculation, responded by denying such as credible the burden of proof rests firmly upon your shoulders. The problem is that you cannot offer such evidence to establish beyond doubt the proof of your critical claims. As I have made clear previously we are in an arena of questions regarding this topic, it may well be that every single stone marked on old maps was linked to gates or field margins. Equally it can be stated that some of these stones had a more ancient and astronomic function, I am open to any and all options. That said I feel it no longer productive to exchange further with you on the subject, I am aware of your position, and to avoid repetition and charges of boredom I think it best to draw a line under our exchanges.

Blimey Erainn, all I did was ask you what evidence there was for Neolithic settlement.

If you can't give an answer in support of your own assertions then I guess you don't have any evidence. No need to stamp your feet and run off home with your ball, or try and deflect from answering a direct question by throwing a paddy...

I have made direct reference to some of the latest published assessments of the history and archaeology of the Wirral area by professionals, and provided links to some of these (including the on-going utilities work), none of which give any credence to stone circles or standing stones locally. Your arguement that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' proves nothing.

So just answer the question (if you can). Bearing in mind the relatively small size of Wirral, what evidence is there for an established (and well organised) neolithic community in Wirral, of sufficient size and resources who would have been capable of constructing stone circles?

Yin Yang

The 'burden of proof' rests with you. as it was you that from the beginning objected to and refuted what was simply reasonable speculation. I shall ignore the barely disguised ad-hominem and other fallacious responses and await your presentation of evidence that Neolithic communities did not exist on the Wirral and furthermore for some strange reason unlike similar groups across Britain seemingly chose not to erect megalithic structures. Once again, as I hope readers of this thread may recognize unlike yourself I am not asserting anything as fact, what I have done is to ask a not unreasonable question: did ancient peoples on the Wirral erect standing stones and was there an indication of such in possible alignments shown on 19th Century maps?

I think any further exchange with you on this subject is unproductive and likely to repeat what has already been discussed, so on that note I would suggest ending this correpondence.

...try reading your own posts, Erainn . Your whole argument is that a collection of non-descript stones recorded on a map (and which no longer exist) could well have been standing stones because we have recorded evidence that 'the area was inhabited during the Neolithic'. But, as usual, you offer no details regarding the said evidence. Are you using your default setting of 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' again?

Your reply is typically rhetorical and fails to answer the question put to you. Instead you use pompous, condescending language to hide behind.

You may well believe that there are theories at the bottom of your jargon Erainn, but I think you are more likely to find faeries. After all, your idiosyncratic brand of un-real history does border on fantasy doesn't it?

I am not sure if this has been mentioned previously as I have not time to go through all the posts on here. This is due to a gentleman who I have by chance met from the local population. He is 85 yrs old and an absolute mine of information of the surrounding areas and beyond. His memory is amazing and he speaks so quickly as one thing leads to another from his memory bank. Last week he told me so much as I walked the dog, and promised he would call to pay a visit with a picture he had drawn in 1930. Today he arrived unexpectedly and continued to draw on his memoirs.
I specifically asked about standing stones in Arrowe Park. He said he ddn;t know anything about standing stones, although there are two on the right hand side of Landican Lane, as we travel down from Thingwall roundabout.
He followed up with square gateposts in Arrowe Park which were the boundary posts. He said they used square ones because the others which could be worn were classed as inferior for the job.
He then explained that there are two (I think) big square ones and ( and I can't remember where exactly, they may show up on ne of the maps.) One of them has a bar which leads in a downward position into the ground. If we stand against the post with the bar and look down, we can see a path which is s shaped . The grass grows over it but not well as it was a cinder track. He said the path leads to the woods, where there is a huge stone block. He knows not what it was for but also mentioned some of the other stones may have been for 'stone rubbing' at some time. I did not press him on that, as he didn't seem to know what 'stone rubbing' is and so I assume he has heard that from elsewhere. He said the sandstone pillars with the holes in them were used for placing wooded bars in them ( or something like that) . Sorry to be a bit vague but I was scribbling as fast as possible whilst he jumped around with his history.
I so wish someone has got all of this mans memories somewhere. He did help Greg Dawson with his book, but there is obviously so much more to be salvaged.
Hope all this makes sense.

Granny, if you get a chance do examine carefully the 19th century maps of that area and note in particular the frequency, distribution and proximity of stones marked. While no doubt such were used as boundary indicators or gate-posts there are some recorded on such maps positioned that suggest alignment, while others are sited in the middle of fields, which in the 19th Century already possessed hedging/boundaries, raising questions as to their purpose. Remember too that stones were recycled and reused over the centuries too, so making it challenging to assert conclusively original function, especially if relocated.

Will have a go, Erainn

Thought the one down landican lane was for tying up the bull to. Or cow while the bull did its business.

The reference to 'stone rubbing' could mean 'rubbing stones' set in a field for the beasts to rub against, to have a good scratch?