Not sure if this has been on before. The pillar is on the corner of Elm Grove and Whetstone Lane, Birkenhead.
Any ideas on it?

St Josephs Road ?

Could be Colgo,was Elm Grove once called St Josephs Road?, the only other possibility is the pillar being from elsewhere, then again i would have thought the name plate would have been turned out of view.

How did you spot that bert.
Thought you were deaf in one eye.
I took a couple of pics of the letterbox last week and didn't notice.
St Joseph rd not in 1916 street directory

Possibly something to do with convent? that was around that
area

Derek, I'm not deaf in one eye, I'm blind in one ear. I can't take the credit for finding anything, the other day one of our alcoholic/druggie friends was rocking on his heels looking up at it. I'm not sure if he was looking at the sign or checking if there was an upstairs light on, anyway I've walked past it on a regular basis for 38 years and not noticed it. As you know the convent was opposite, if it is St Josephs, is that the link.

Looking at my pics - not too sure if the sandstone wall had been faced like the pillar and in my first pic at the bottom of the pillar looks like some of the facing has come away showing sandstone underneath

name of convent
off 1888 map posted by MARK

A chapel in the convent was called St Joseph's

http://www.holthillconvent.co.uk/convent.php

Great spot. Also never noticed that in 20 years. Very likely to be associated the convent as has been said, which had its origins in St Joseph's Mission.

http://www.stjosephsbirkenhead.co.uk/history_FCJ_Holt_Hill.asp

Furher checks of older maps might reveal a mention as 'St Josephs Road' but it may have just been a local nickname carved fo the convent. I think...

OR.. it could be that they recycled that post and stuck it there in later years

Recycling did cross my mind, but from where and when? possibly from inside the convent grounds?,

I'd guess. Any nuns on here?

Looks like Joseph's road to me ?

?

Vandal,
now we need to know, whats its doing there and why?

haha Sorry bert , Just call me Banksy

Certainly looks like St Josephs Road, but I haven't so far been able to find any reference to Elm Grove having gone by that name. It's certainly Elm Grove on the 1875 OS map, but the road didn't exist in 1858 when the next earliest surviving map was drawn up; interestingly though, on that map and in the 1861 Directory, Chestnut Grove, on the other side of the Convent, was named as Shewells or Shewell Road, so it's quite possible that Elm Grove underwent a name change not long after it was first laid out. Presumably the names were changed to fit in with the pattern of Laurel Road, Larch Road, Beech Road, etc.

Indeed, The Reverend William Shewell, vicar at Bidston from 1793 to 1819, lived in a large house at the Eastern end of Shewell Road (later to be renamed Chestnut Grove).

By 1841, the solicitor Henry Bushel Walker and his family lived in Shewell's house. The Walkers developed the grounds around the house into gardens. By 1951 Henry's wife, Eliza, is listed as the head of the household.

The FCJ Sisters bought Shewell's house in 1856, probably from Eliza Walker or her estate. In the Spring of 1857 the Community and about 40 pupils moved from Hamilton Square to Holt Hill.

Thanks Marty, of course all the tree names, making sense. I believe Holt hill convent was once Shewell House. Cracked it i think. Cheers.

Cheers Dan.

Also there are two holes in the pillar, that have been plugged, the top one with sandstone (or similar) but the bottom one, with brick?
Looks like there might once-upon-a-time have been hinges or something (for a gate maybe?) attached there?

Spot on CV and perfectly plumb to each other, could be the gateway into the convents grounds at one time, well done.

"Sidelights on Tranmere" confirms the Elm Grove was St Josephs Road in 1843 when built and was probably renamed around 1860.

I would tend to query this as there don't appear to be any maps with anything but Elm Grove. Furthermore St Josephs (church) had no involvement with Holt Hill Convent until 1899, although a chapel at the convent may have been called St Josephs as early as 1897.

The original entrance to the convent appears to be on Chestnut Grove until the convent was expanded between 1907 and 1914 when another entrance was made in Elm Road, I strongly suspect the gate posts come from this newer entrance were named St Josephs Road with reference to the drive into the convent.

It is also worth noting that when St Josephs church was proposed to be built in Devonshire Park, there were strong objections to a catholic church being built there so despite the convent, this could be taken that the chances of a road being named such may be unlikely.

Some of the history seems a bit mixed up, including Holt Hill Convent being called "Tranmere Hall" which is highly unlikely as the "real" Tranmere (new) Hall was still in existence until 1936.

Some excellent contributions as always and i think its safe to assume that the pillar still stands in its original position. I wonder if the sandstone wall attached carries on behind the houses.
I liked the thoughts of Marty on Elm Grove being named as such to follow the patten of other roads named after trees in the area. However, three times in this thread Chesnut Grove has been referred to as Chestnut Grove. Is there a story here worth investigation? Was it meant to be Chestnut?

Mea culpa, Bert, you're absolutely right, it should be Chesnut Grove; my error comes of relying too much on my modern A-Z, which has renamed ALL of the roads on Merseyside that used to be called 'Chesnut' Road, Lane, Grove, Avenue etc, as 'Chestnut'.

According to the OED, the word was originally chesten-nut, which became shortened to chestnut or chesnut, and the latter was apparently the predominant spelling from the 16th century until the 1820s. In my 1903 Gore's Directory all the local road names use the form Chesnut - there isn't a single Chestnut - and Chesnut Grove appears as such on all Editions of OS maps including the current digital version. Interestingly there is, however, a modern Chestnut Grove in Bromborough.

I'm puzzled by the reference in dd's post to St Josephs Road/Elm Grove being laid out in 1843, as it's not marked on either of the two surviving maps of Birkenhead in 1858. One of these two maps does, however, show a semi-circular indentation in the line of the property boundary wall at the point where Elm Grove now starts suggesting the presence of a gateway, so it's likely that the pillar in the photos was originally one of a pair of gate piers.

Must have emptied that pillar box thousands of times and never noticed that.

If this is correct, it is very unlikely that the road name had anything to do with the convent. The convent arrived at Holt Hill in 1857, 14 years after the road was built, the convent was officially called 'Convent of the Faithful Companions of Jesus, Holt Hill' or more simply 'The Convent of Holt Hill' (it is described in this way in the Catholic Directory of 1876). The first chapel was not built until 1860.




St Joseph's Parish and Church were founded by the FCJ sisters, the first parish mass being on 25th September 1898, celebrated by Rev G Carton, in the playrooms at Holt Hill. This makeshift Chapel was dedicated to St Joseph. The land occupied by the Present St Joseph's Church was donated by Mr Topham of 'Heathly' in Woodchurch Road. The church moved from Holt Hill Convent to the new church in 1900.




The large new building at Holt Hill Convent was errected between 1901 and 1903, and a new Chapel was started 1n 1907 (although in use by the Convent soon after this, the Chapel was not fully completed and decorated until 1914) so it is unlikey that the new drive would be named after St Joseph's Church which by this time was already in North Road.




Holt Hill convent did not occupy 'Tranmere Hall' at any time, they moved from Hamilton Square to Holt Hill in 1857 where the sisters had a year earlier bought the house built by the Reverend William Shewell from the then owner, Henry Bushel Walker's widow, Eliza. The house was located at the end of Shewell Road which was later renamed Chestnut Grove.

Confirming DD's post re. Sidelights on Tranmere, the section is talking about the development of the old Town Fields by mid 19th. century builders. It refers to a field built on in 1843, owned by a Mr.Warrington, who built semi-detached houses. The first name of the road was St.Joseph's Rd., later, Elm Grove.
I'm attaching an extract from the tithe maps, 1836-51 which show this. Interesting that at the time, St.Joseph's Rd./Elm Grove didn't exist; access to these houses was from a narrow path from further down Whetstone Lane. This would explain why it doesn't show on Marty's maps.
Also at that time, Derby Rd. stopped short of Whetstone Lane:
also, it was called Yolk of Egg Lane, (see new thread).

Incidentally, the website with the tithe maps is:
http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithemaps/TwinMaps.aspx

I'm not sure that John Allison has his facts right on this one. The houses shown on the Tithe are not part of St Joseph's Road/Elm Grove at all; as you say they're accessed via Whetstone Lane, and are on what is officially known as Wellington Terrace. According to the Tithe Schedule, the land they are on was owned by William Sharp, though it's possible he may have bought it from Thomas Williamson in order to develop it.

The houses in Elm Grove were built later on Thomas Williamson's land, plots 64 & 65 on the Tithe map, and there's certainly nothing showing on these plots in 1858. Mind you, by then the house on plot 64 had been demolished, so its possible that the Elm Grove development took place shortly after this, in about 1860.

Thanks Marty (Chesnut Grove). Wellington Terrace still has a couple of the sandstone houses, what i think are the original.Not sure why the remainder were demolished and replaced by a modern terraced row.

Hi, Marty; when you refer to Thomas Williamson, are you sure it's not Thomas Warrington? It seems to me that Elm Grove was built between the houses in question and plots 64 & 65 on the tithe map. On the 1875 O.S. map the road is shown and although it's difficult to read, the lettering looks very like Elm Grove. Looking at the 1910 O.S. map, it looks to me as if Wellington Terrace is closer to Whetstone Lane than the path fronting the houses. What do you think?

Chris, the houses on the map you put up are in my opinion definitly Wellington Terrace, I am quite familiar with it and the road and houses are a fair distance back from Whetstone lane. The houses on your map, some still exist, a couple are in the Clifton road thread.

Sorry Chris, I did mean Thomas Warrington, but I'd just been dealing with some correspondence from a Mrs Williamson. Comes of trying to do two things at once!

Perhaps the following modern map makes thinks a little clearer. I've outlined the area in blue that matches the built-up area on the Tithe map, and this reveals that the whole of Elm Grove is within the boundaries of plots 64 & 65. In fact the mysterious gate post is right at the top corner of plot 64, and was probably at the entrance to the yard or garden of Thomas Warrington's house.

Thanks guys.

Fascinating thread .

great detective work you lot!

First map I've seen with St Josephs Rd on it.

Well done Bert1.
That's perseverance spending over 11/12 years searching for that map.
could you please put where you found it and its date, to save me a few minutes searching

Here you are, Sir, my bill is in the post.

https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/ids:10389752?fbclid=IwAR3R-_60mVeZnf3inIMA4sL2_KaJ4fAVZpx5UUNH0VkL_Q0a_EDhf8qhQCM

1864 Liverpool Mercury.