I have been amazed at the pictures of all the streets that have been demolished. It made me realise ,that there where areas of my home town, that I never knew where there. I went down town to the shops, but I never took any notice of what was around me. It actually makes me feel sad. The communities that where there, all disbanded to estates. When I come back to Birkenhead I do feel the guts have been ripped out of the place. We had a fine town, some fantastic old buildings and such character.I know houses became unfit to live in, but what has shocked me was what came down for that flyover!

Its a disgrace! Birkenhead was a real interesting Gem, now its a sad shadow of its former self!

same all over i think! Like New Ferry-----not the same as it was years ago,buildings pulled down that should never have been pulled down---the Great Eastern for one--and they still haven't built on the land,it's a right mess,all over grown! the baths went years ago,now a Wimpy estate, part of Rock Park gone! what will they take next?

i lived on marion street agreat area to live.i went to cathcart street school also a great place. the whole area had great character.could have been regenerated.

The planning butchers have a lot to answer for, no doubt some were well intentioned, others perhaps made serious money out of the wholesale destruction of parts of the town. I agree with other contributors here in that on returning to Birkenhead, having been away since 1982. I feel a sense of being a stranger in my own town, such is the nature of the changes, which appear to have removed the character, individuality and life out of the town. I forget the name of the old hall on the junction of Eastbourne Road and Claughton Road, but years ago it had a massive sign that declared 'This is it, Second-Hand City!' How that message encapsulated the decline that forever scarred Birkenhead post 1970s. What's left seems sterile in comparison to the communities and streets that gave the town such vibrancy, and don't get me going on Woodside, or the multi-coloured buses, with drivers who seem unaware of the routes they drive

i agree completely,there are one or two areas of the old character left though.

Whether it be butchery or not, i for one would only ever rejoice in getting families out of rat and cockroach infested properties, i fear those who hanker after so called communities have either never lived in them or only have the protection of childhood memories, which always offer a different perspective. When these areas are cleared i suppose its only natural to remember them from some sort of blinked and romantic happy time of community spirit and fondness, yet the reality of it is, living with outside toilets, no bath or bathroom, a constant struggle to keep wallpaper on the wall, shared bedrooms and vermin. Add that to the forever wearing down of health, it can only be viewed as a job well done getting rid of them.
Getting rid of buildings of interest, of course thats a shame and could be seen as a crime and yet could you imagine the uproar if it meant putting the rates up to do so.
Keeping cost effectiveness and a happy balance is not so easy.

Well done Bert, had to be said and 100% true.

What bert says is true. As far as working class housing is concerned there's very little to be nostalgic about.

Much of the heritage we see today is a highly sanitized representation of the past. The nice old buildings which do survive in our towns today tend to be the higher status properties which were always well maintained in the first place.

It's true that many Victorian terraced properties do still exist but they've had to be radically modernised to make them habitable. And anyone who lives in a terraced street will tell you, they were not designed for car owners.

Good to see selective interpretation is alive and well. Of course no one was advocating that the town was a former paradise, or that conditions were perfect, but that was a straw-man argument offered by others here.

Back to the actual issue..as someone with relatives who lived around Leta Street I need no lessons on 'romanticising' the housing circumstances that some endured, being very familiar with the reality of '2 up 2 down, bog in the back yard'. However, that's again not really the topic. The discussion, prior to the hijacking, simply explored the changes, and yes, 'loss'; in terms of community. Admittedly, though not an example of enlightened housing provision, the streets and terraces of the town, provided a strong sense of identity, and not all were the horror story some suggest.

It is debatable to what degree the 'modern' facilities afforded by high rise replacements, or later the allure of relocating to estates,that within a couple of years had themselves attracted serious concerns, eclipsed the basic provisions of former housing. What is clear, and salient to the thread here, is that the town has indeed been transformed and not in an entirely positive or sensitive fashion.

There have been numerous grants available to renovate the old victorian properties to erradicate damp, install double glazing, improve insulation and install internal bathrooms.

Thank you for those kind words Erainn. I've missed your condescending charm!

Always a pleasure, most particularly for those unable to discuss without resorting to misrepresentation or fallacious argument.

The opening line in this thread is (I have been amazed at the pictures of all the streets that have been demolished.) which in my view allows debate on a broad spectrum of whats happened to this town and its buildings.

DD is indeed correct in saying grants were available but the money available and offered only went a small way in offering a degree of improvement and comfort to some properties and property owners.

My opening line to this thread is completely true. I have realised that I never really looked around me, saw the streets that have now gone. I am sad that I never saw so much of my much loved and missed home town. I was born and lived in Tudor Rd, Rock Ferry.It was a small terraced house, no inside loo, tin bath used on Sunday bathnight. We had cockroach infestation, and actually lived with our Grandparents as well. The house was overcrowded.I would not change one thing of this. I loved living where we did. We did get rehoused to the Prenton Estate in the early sixties. It never had the same feeling of community that Tudor Rd had.Interestingly the Tudor Rd house is still there, very much improved and cared for by the current residents.

I think it says more about the bonds of Family and the importance of a loving upbringing. Regardless of whether we grow up in a poor residential district or a stately home if we are blessed with family and friends the buildings themselves are largely irrelevant. In many ways, the more austere our circumstances the close those bonds are forged.

Geekus is absolutely right, family bonds etc. The fact that the Tudor rd house is still standing suggests that at that time decent living accommodation took precedence over community spirit. I can't share Lyn's enthusiasm for living in such conditions having been born in to a similar type of house and circumstances. Though only young when moving, the delight of moving to a house with all inside facilities, hot and cold running water, a bedroom of my own and a garden where i could visit insects in their environment instead of them visiting mine, normally dropping on my head in the night. Community spirit is one thing but a lot of people have traded it for decent living accommodation.

I have enjoyed reading all the points made by members. I think Geekus is absolutely right, thank you for expressing that feeling so well.I did not really mean to start a discussion about communities as such, although I am glad it did. My main point was, there was so much of the town around me. It has only been by seeing the photos on Wiki Wirral, that I see how much ,I didn't actually see!

Debate is fine, we can all agree on that, however distortions and fallacy that set-up straw man arguments, do not really serve any purpose but to distract, as evidenced by this response. In that context that form of 'debate' subverts the flow and exchange of contributions.

Lyn, Precisely

Nobody, apart from that featured in your self-serving line of misrepresentation, had asserted that one took precedence over the other. What was observed was that much has been lost,the town transformed (not always for the better) and that community and identity naturally was changed by that process.

??????????????

!!!!!!!!

Lyn I hope you don't feel any discomfort about subsequent discussion regadin how communities in Birkenhead were scattered to the winds, as you correctly observed, "The communities that where there, all disbanded to estates.". That impact is directly related to the 'developments' that transformed the town.

The problem Erainn is, if a thread doesn't move in a certain direction that suits you, the dummy comes out of the pram. If you think its gone off course then make a contribution to bring it back on, move the debate to a direction where you think it belongs, by all means keep having a pop at me, but water off a ducks back I'm afraid.

Welcome back eriann – it’s taken you a while to find another thread in which you can vent your pretentious spleen.

I am surprised you find my previous comments perplexing, however here's the context, they refer to remarks made by Bert1, which rather than addressing what I had actually written, presented a set of arguments no one (apart from Bert) had made. This is known as 'Fallacy' or to be more precise a tactic called 'Straw Man Argument', to illustrate this further here's Bert's reply, with my notes in blue

"Whether it be butchery or not, i for one would only ever rejoice (the discussion was not about the obvious benefits of moving people in extreme poverty/housing conditions) in getting families out of rat and cockroach infested (again use of emotionally loaded terms that had no relevance to what I had written) properties, i fear those who hanker (my comments had in no way suggested a wish to restore conditions to the horror picture painted by Bert) after so called communities have either never lived (presumption and concealed insult) in them or only have the protection of childhood memories, which always offer a different perspective. When these areas are cleared i suppose its only natural to remember them from some sort of blinked and romantic happy time of community spirit and fondness, yet the reality of it is, living with outside toilets, no bath or bathroom, a constant struggle to keep wallpaper on the wall, shared bedrooms and vermin. Add that to the forever wearing down of health, it can only be viewed as a job well done getting rid of them (again this is a grossly exagerrated and emotionally loaded creation of Bert's that has no connection with what I had actually written)Getting rid of buildings of interest, of course thats a shame and could be seen as a crime and yet could you imagine the uproar if it meant putting the rates up to do so. Keeping cost effectiveness and a happy balance is not so easy."

Now the general rule of conversation/debate is 'connectivity' and relevance with what has been actually stated, otherwise in distorting what people say, or putting words in someone's mouth simply to validate your own arguments either distracts or subverts the general debate. That is what was meant, I trust you can now more fully appreciate the point.

I shall not dignify your comments with any meaningful response, apart to state that insult is no substitute for reason and mature debate. If you are willing to restrict your comments to balanced and civilized tone I am happy to exchange, otherwise clearly it would be a pointless exercise.

Bert I require no lecture on going off topic from a clear master of the art such as yourself, why, you even created your own arguments for yourself, rather than addressing what I actually stated.

Erainn, you have made the mistake of assuming i was replying to your post, if i was, i would have included your name or replied via the quote button, this assumption i think has come about because of one word or at least the extension of it.
However i stand by my views, not a distortion of anything, just my views and opinion. related only to Lyn's first few lines in her post.

No disagreement they are your views, given also they followed immediately my original post, referred directly to content I had presented, not that unreasonable to connect them with what I had written. However, your remarks and reasoning were fallacious, in that they misrepresent what I had written and promoted straw-man arguments.

Who is this clown? Says lives in London so says it all really. Loves the sound of his own voice I think!

Erainn, one post always follows another, its unavoidable that sometimes misinterpretations can follow, using ones name or the quote button at times is a valuable tool, nothing i have written is fallacious or comes under the straw man category when referring to demolished streets as mentioned in the first post. Can i surgest you move the debate on and then people will contribute as is their want.

Your comment to bert about a “self-serving line of misrepresentation” is hardly reason and mature debate and I find your dissection of his post extremely patronising. This is not a debating society for academics and pedants but a place where personal views, comments and reminiscences can be aired. It is rare that any post on Wirral History sticks strictly to the original thread and that is what makes it so enjoyable and unpredictable. What could have been an interesting thread has now turned into a slanging match about what comments are or are not acceptable and unfortunately that’s all down to you.

i dont agree bert,i lived in marion street, it was a great place to live .the area was the heart of the town. large areas are regenerated all the time were our house was is just a car park ,the old bricks are still there.is that progress? the boulevard is a plastic mess. the community has gone.a little thought would have gone a long way.

Well, your comments are noted, however your loyalty to a few other posters here, who seem to specialize in herd instinct, has blinded you to a couple of basic points. Firstly, my comments were related directly to Bert's misrepresentation of what I had actually written, that reasonable response on my part, falls within the operating remit of the forum. Secondly, the veiled personal attacks were not instigated by myself, but directed in my direction, I have far too much Irish in my make up to permit that to go unchallenged, least of all from those with an inferiority complex So if anyone could be considered to have dragged this thread into the gutter find a mirror and share it with one or two others here. Meanwhile as I stated to you before if you wish to have a serious and mature exchange on the subject I am happy to contribute.

I share your position on how insensitively the town was ripped apart in the name of 'development', ties and friendships which had formed over two or three generations were thrown to the sky, people relocated to either high-rise alienation or estates that developed a number of serious concerns. Streets and housing, that were far from the medieval squalor so graphically sketched by Bert, were often replaced by car parks, or left as wasteland. In that sense, it is no exagerration to describe that process as removing the heart and community from the center of the town. Nothwithstanding the obvious benefits of improved housing and facilities, the planners, in the scramble to 'develop' the town, created a less than pleasurable legacy, that leaned more towards the needs of commerce, than providing a quality living space.

With the mass demolitions that have happened, the area is becoming more like pools of populations. The mass flattened sites and this pooling seems to be a factor in destroying the community as a whole.

Erainn, it was hardly medieval squalor but squalor it was, i don't know what era you're going back to, in the 50s and the house i was born into was in an area of housing unfit for human habitation, ok it put a roof over ones head, but thats about all.
Our relatives all lived around each other, if not in the same street then the next one or the one after that. They all moved away within 12 months of each other, I don't recall then or on growing up during discussion on the old place any opposition or anyone opposing the move, in fact quite the contrary, everyone was glad of it, in those days , people harassed the local authorities to get a move, i can tell you without fear of contradiction, no one was sorry or reluctant to leave those dwellings. As i said earlier, most people put the so called community spirit to one side in favour of better living quarters.
I'll stand corrected if need be, I don't recall vast areas of land in Birkenhead where redevelopment could have been done on the scale of the Woodchurch Estate etc to build and meet the housing requirement. So its no wonder communities that people long for were destroyed. In all the years of discussion on this subject with my parents who were obviously adults at the time of our move, never did they ever have a bad word for the people they lived amongst, only the property they had to live in, i like others can understand the feeling of loss of a community spirit but i feel most people gladly put that aside for a more healthier and better standard of living.

Erainn. As the thread seems to have got back on track, I won't bother replying to the rather bizarre post addressed to me. Instead I will slink back to my herd (avoiding mirrors on the way) and let you superior beings carry on.

and not one photograph of birkenhead after all that ha

That may well be your personal experience, it does not though remove the reality that the town was effectively scarred by insensitive development, that in many cases replaced houses and communities with high-rise deprivation, waste-land or car parks. Within that context, the original comment of this thread has validity, much has been lost and questions do indeed remain as to the value or otherwise of the effects of such 'development'.

Personal abuse and prejudice, hardly a mature or intelligent response. Would you care to discuss the actual topic?

Bert your response, which began with reference to my orginal comment, was clearly formed (even in part) as a rejoinder to my contribution, so please let's not quibble on that obvious fact.

Secondly your comments were indeed fallacious, and more precisely a Straw Man argument, which is defined as:

a fallacy committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Your reply was precisely that.

As noted previously I remain happy to discuss the actual topic.

Erainn, you are only prepared to discuss a topic if it moves in the direction you want it to, if it doesn't take that course you then start accusing people of fallacy, once again you throw up the Straw man, seems to be your favorite character, I need no help from you on its definition, if i didn't know i am capable of looking it up myself. You seem to bring the worst out in people and your attitude will only stifle debate, not enhance it. If you can't accept other members views whether you think they are right or wrong then you are going to be debating with yourself. As previously stated, members come on here(History section) for fun, not to go to war. Having said that, carry on, there's always the ignore button.

Quite. Look what happened in the River Fender topic earlier this year. Successfully killed off by such quibbling.

Bert

It would appear you, and one or two others here, have a somewhat twisted understanding of debate, in that you ignore completely what a contributor states, or distort and misrepresent comments to validate preconceived arguments. In what is a public forum it is entirely reasonable to expose such fallacy, what is not however acceptable is veiled insult, prejudice and personal attack.

Your initial response was indeed fallacious in that the argument you presented was based, not on what I had actually written, but on a distortion of your creation. My reply to that was not about 'direction' at all (another misrepresentation on your part) but simply pointing out that you were not addressing my comments.

The 'war' (again your indulgence in dramatic exagerration, first insect and rodent infestation , now armed aggression) you mention is a conflict formed by your own perception, although I note the cudgels were picked up by others.

Let me make this clear to you, my comments relate entirely to what you have written and are a critique in terms of debate, I am not interested in the sly insult and prejudice which others find so irresistable, and remain content to discuss the topic with anyone in a civilized and balanced fashion.

Person A makes a statement, person B disagrees, person C agrees with person A, person B restates their position, person D concurs with person B. So it goes with additional contributions. Then person A seeks some 'authorative academic' conclusion so invites opinion of Professor X, whose contribution features not conclusive evidence, but simply opinion. Person B highlights that, person A then disagrees with person B, person C agrees with person A.

Anyone of reasonable intelligence would consider such an exchange, on a public forum, on a topic of local history to be debate, as opposed to the more perjorative description of 'quibble', but then again I do not wish to quibble with you on that distinction

OK guys; this has gone far enough. It contributes nothing to the subject of the original post. Feel free to continue your argument via. PM.

Thank you Chris for your timely and wise intervention, your advice well noted.

I grew up in a 2 bedroomed house,loo in the backyard,only a cold water tap, no bathroom, coal or coke kept under the stairs with door to it in the room we lived in and no electricity, only gaslights downstairs using candles upstairs.
Being a child at the time and not used to anything better I only have memories of the activities we kids used to get involved in.
When we moved to the Northend what luxories we had - Electricity,TV,Bathroom,garden.
Although I never got to know many folks round here as I was now working and usually went out with a mate from downtown it was my younger brothers who grew up here and made good friends at school and locally.
What I do miss from my younger days is the old market and Grange Road as it used to be with such a variety of shops and stalls much better than todays offerings

Sounds virtually the same as my Gran's house in Windsor St. where I used to spend much of my time. The only difference was that the door to the coal under the stairs was in the back kitchen. Interesting that although it only had two rooms & a back kitchen I can never remember the front room being used. I think it was only ever used for special occasions (not many of them) and, of course, to lay out the dead.

Yet another property Derek a family was glad to see the back of and if its now hardcore for a car park, it serves a better purpose. What on earth were they thinking of building houses of that nature, its not that the technology wasn't available, its more, get them in there, that will do them, the community spirit will keep them going. I can understand your fondness for old Grange Rd and the old market, like everything else times move on, i suspect the modern shopper lik all the shops under one roof or like myself a retail park where i can park, get in the shop and get out. I wonder if the market still stood today would it have the same support as in our time, unlikely, probably be a 24 Tesco right next to it, then you would see where loyalties and nostalgia lie.

Replaced by the asbestos joys and high rise alienation of Eldon and Oak Gardens, or the isolated social problems that would blight estates, such as Ford, within a couple of years of their construction. Whatever the shortcomings of ealier housing, the transformation of some areas of the town centre into waste land or car-parks is hardly a legacy that people can be proud of or indeed enhance any lingering sense of community. I think that is the 'loss' that the orginal post was addressing, not only the visual impact of effectively 'dead' zones, where people and families once lived, but the societal consequence too in, that communities, which despite the challenging conditions of basic housing, had thrived and developed over two generations, were in the space of a few years cast to the wind. This is not to romanticize conditions experienced by larger family sizes in basic and small accomodation, indeed life was challenging, certainly for folks fom Ireland such as my own family. Yet equally while there were obvious advantages to the modern housing that was to replace earlier stock, it would not be accurate or objective to portray them in an overly romantic gloss either. There were sersious social problems which emerged from both the high rise and estate 'solutions', meanwhile the town was indeed left with a number of areas home to cars or weeds, giving it an appearance of decline, as if the life had been removed from it. Perhaps this sense also contributes to the general feeling of some who understandably look at such places and cannot help but wonder if the planning was enlightened. There is much to celebrate in terms of individual living conditions, yet clearly the changes have not generated either the social or economic progress that planners may have hoped. Meanwhile, the individuality of shops and general character that Birkenhead (like many towns) possessed has been replaced with the ubiquitous multi-national retailers. Nostalgia for sure, however I would rather remember the town for the likes of Stubbs the bakers, Hinton's butchers, Farnsworth's barbers or Bob Martin's cordials than the soul-less experience that the 'developed' town center now is.

Harry Farnworth the barber was my "courtesy uncle" if that is the same chap. His shop was somewhere near Birkenhead Park railway station if my memory still works.

Could be one-in-the same, although his shop as I recall was on Grange Road West.

Ahhh ! Stubbs. I vividly recall their shop in Christchurch Road.
It was the smell of all their lovely confections, freshly baked.
If I recall it had the look of a Victorian shop with dark wooden shelveing, there was I think a "sample" wedding cake in the window a 3 or 4 tier job. Not only could you order wedding but birthday cakes or other special occasions.
Also whenever you bought anything it was put in a box, don't seem to recall paper bags. Quite a bit of pocket money spent there !!

Indeed and the debate that took place in terms of who made the best custard tarts, Stubbs OR Hurst's??

Tatey, Have a feeling that Farnworth's was located where this electrical retailers is now, unless memory needs a reboot

Picture Of Possible Location Of Farnworth's

Vittoria street just up from the post office on Price street corner which was opposite Eric Elias another head butcher.You must know Eric King who was his nephew and worked in the shop.

I know that shop well as I have bought Braun spares from there. Maybe Harry had 2 shops or it was the different spelling. Unfortunately no one left alive to ask now. If it was Harry, he retired to West Kirby.

From the fragments of memory, the Farnworth I recall was named George, and had the look of Glenn Miller about him, the wire specs included. He was a big Liverpool fan and had an array of instruments of 'torture' in his shop, including chairs that would have kept Hannibal Lecter secure, a range of different sized razors, leather straps, and would also singe the hair of your neck with a lighted taper! Little wonder the impression lingers to this very day

Must have had a memory failure as it was Bill Farnworth that I knew. Married to Ida & lived in West Kirby & played tennis with my parents. Maybe George was a brother? Oh well, never mind. Bill & Ida are both gone now.

My name is Mike I born in Conway Place just by the stables a place where front doors where left open a Three bedroomed terraced house with tin bath outside, toilet outside six of us in one house my playground where the streets of Birkenhead, we where poor but happy the community gathered around you in all aspects of social life. Today that is gone and will never be revived, I and my family even to this day will eat a meal at the table and do one thing people have forgot, we talk to each other, my children have left home but we do gather from time to time and we do converse with each other, I was brought with a picture on the wall that said manners maketh man, I am now writing a bit of a ghost story about Birkenhead called a voice is calling me. Thank You.

ive sent you a p m mike ok,paul.