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Posted By: derekdwc tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 29th Mar 2011 5:23pm
old pic
Been trying to figure out where the pool was on modern day map
Looking at old pic I wonder if the artist was sitting at top of Holt Hill/Whetstone lane area.
Some say it went as far as Central station/Borough Rd possibly via Waterloo place Blackpool st - which I believe (is/was the lowest part of Birkenheadand)and at high tide as far as the old fire station in Borough road where I presume the Happy Valley ran into it.
Can anyone have proof of it



Attached picture 1 bhead pool.jpg
Attached picture 3Waterloo place.jpg
Attached picture 4pool.jpg
Attached picture 5view off Holt  hill2 [1600x1200].JPG
Attached picture 6view off Holt  hill [1600x1200].JPG
I am unsure and I am unable to locate any maps clearly detailng the pool. There is must reference to it within many books detailing that it did run down the lengh of Bourgh Rd and past the Happy Valley pub towards central station where I think it mergded with a very fast / wide stream coming down from Holt hill that fast and srong that a mounted soldier was drowned whilst trying to cross it. I would be very interested if you or anyone else locates pictoral images of this waterway. please keep in touch. Dave Patrick, Bebington.
Don't know whether you've got this map derek. About 1838.

Attached picture tranmere pool.jpg
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 29th Mar 2011 9:49pm
not got that map.
Is it part of a larger map?
Noticed Gillbrook on it - whatever it refers to and Inderton which could be related in some way to Hinderton Rd.
Hotel may well be the Castle Hotel opposite Lairds main gate
Also Fairfield - a stream? from which possibly the Fairfield Hotel was named
Is that a railway line to Monks Ferry - what date built? - crossing the Pool?
Where did you get the info about mounted soldier?
Hope someone comes up with answers.
Posted By: yoller Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 29th Mar 2011 11:27pm
Tranmere Pool almost certainly ran along the line of Waterloo Place / Blackpool Street, where it was bridged by the Birkenhead-Chester railway (as nightwalker's map shows). The railway line was opened in 1840.

The stream that fed the Pool from the direction of Borough Road - known as The Rubicon - was eventually culverted, but in wet weather the roadway under the rail bridge regularly used to flood as the water tried to find its old natural course.

Hinderton (Inderton?) was the area of Tranmere between the river front and the rising ground leading up to Tranmere Ridge, which could be accessed from the Tranmere Ferry.

As for the drowned soldier, the excellent book Sidelights on Tranmere, by J E Allison, tells the story as it was recorded at
Liverpool Coroner's Court: 'The above-named Robert Greene (late Corporall of Major Boulton's Troope)the sixth day of October in the year of Our Lord 1659, about ten of ye clock in the forenoone of the same day being on horseback and going towards Chester at a certain place called Birket Poole, in ye usuall Place of ye same roade hee entered into the Poole, the water being deepe by reason of ye tyde and his horse plunged inn, and having lost his footeng hee turned several tymes about in the water, and then they both sunck down and for some time were under water, then the horse came up and landed on the further syde but the said Robert Greene was then and there by accident, misadventure and misfortune drowned and found lying there dead in the Bottom being left by the Tyde's ebbing neere the place where hee entered into ye Poole.'
Great stuff, yoller. Could the map be showing the 'illegal' railway line? According to wikipedia "The station [Monks Ferry] was originally opened without authority in April 1838. However, due to the objections and legal proceedings of the operators of the Woodside Ferry the station closed until it was purchased and reopened on 23 October 1844 via an extension of the line from Birkenhead Grange Lane". This would confirm the date of the map as about 1838.

Posted By: yoller Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 9:37am
Thanks, nightwalker - although the credit goes to Sidelights on Tranmere, which I recommend to anyone who's interested in the history of Birkenhead.

It would be interesting to know exactly at what point poor Corporal Greene was trying to cross the Pool. Was it near where the railway bridge was later built, or further east towards the Mersey?

It certainly looks like the 'illegal' rail route to Monk's Ferry is shown on the map and that sounds like an interesting story in itself.

However, the bridge at Waterloo Place / Blackpool Street was part of the original railway line and presumably would have spanned Tranmere Pool when it was still a tidal inlet. The bridge is still there today and you can see how the land was embanked either side to raise it across the gap.

As Derek said, this is the lowest geographical point in Birkenhead and Blackpool Street would have been the floor of Tranmere Pool.

Incidentally, when the gasworks was built nearby, tne waters of the Pool became very polluted. I wonder if that's why it was called Blackpool Street - not after Blackpool the place, but because the pollution made it a 'black pool.'?
Posted By: bri445 Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 10:14am
These maps show the relationship with the high ground in Oxton and Tranmere.
Was it named The Rubicon right back to its source?

Attached picture N Wirral 1831 b.jpg

Description: OS 1831
Attached picture 1838 Walker 1a.gif

Description: Walker 1838
Attached picture Lewis Top 2.jpg

Description: Lewis's Topographical Dictionary 1880s?
Attached picture B'head OS 1867 a D&C.jpg
Posted By: bri445 Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 10:19am
Oops, sorry! The descriptions are out of step with the picture. The last one is OS 1867.
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 10:46am
Some great stuff.
Am I being teased with small parts of maps.Who's hoarding them?
Still say we should have a part of wiki for maps only.
Interesting to see railway now map dated 1831.
I shall have to look up how maps were made hundreds of years ago considering they didn't have the aerial views we can get nowadays.
Posted By: yoller Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 11:03am
Some more edited extracts from Sidelights on Tranmere:
'The Happy Valley, whose course is now indicated by Borough Road, swept north, north-east and east for over one and a half miles. The stream which flowed down it into Tranmere (or Birket) Pool was sometimes called The Rubicon by the Victorians (the Rubicon was the river in Italy which Julius Caesar famously crossed as his point of no return as he invaded Rome). But this classical name could not have been the original one. The stream entered Tranmere Pool near the present Central Station. The creek, about 300 yards wide at its mouth, curved inland for about half a mile, forming on its northern side a tongue of land on which the gasworks were built in the 1840s. The Pool could easily be forded at low water, but at high tide its crossing was made at great risk. Very high tides must have come well up the valley, at least as far as the site of St John's Church.'
Posted By: Geekus Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 11:04am
Oh oh, not another set of early river names (Birket Poole and Rubicon). I'm still getting migraines from the Fender thread!!!


nono
Posted By: Geekus Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 11:21am
Think some of the dates on these old maps are getting a bit confused. I'm pretty sure that the first of bri445's maps is Bryants Map of 1831. I don't think the Monk's Ferry Railway line is shown on that one. smack

There's an earlier one of Cheshire by Burdett (1777) which shows Tranmere Pool but it doesn't have as much detail.
Posted By: nightwalker Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 11:45am
Originally Posted by derekdwc
Still say we should have a part of wiki for maps only.


withthat I keep going back to the great maps on the Fender thread and I'm sure that there must be loads of others dotted around the site which I've not come across yet.
I have a map in my posession showing the proposed Birkenhead - Chester line. The map dates from 1836 - see here for the photos of it (from the Railways of Wirral Wiki thread):
Clicky

I've cropped and rotated the relevent part where it crosses Tranmere Pool and attached it below - thought it might be of use?

Attached picture P04-Tmcr.jpg
Posted By: littlestan Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 12:28pm
Tranmere Pool fascinates me as well . I was going to refer to Sidelights on Tranmere but you beat me to it . There is a great book showing the paintings
of Herdman and he did one of Tranmere Pool with the tide out. My copy of this book has gone missing in my house somewhere !
The first tanneries in Birkenhead grew up alongside the Tran Pool where the Gas
works were later built. The 1st Welsh Courts were built here also-this is according to the book Byegone Birkenhead by J.Kaighan,written in 1925 . I am guessing that Welsh drovers brought cattle into the growing town in the 1820s/30s . Tidal pool must have been great for washing hides and cleaning skins etc but the stink left behind must have been awful when tide went out !
Posted By: Geekus Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 12:30pm
I've enquired about having a map site on Wiki before but am told that it's not really possible. It would be a logistical nightmare and use up tons of space for one thing. There are also concerns about copyright etc., for anything less than 70 years old.

Originally Posted by littlestan
Tidal pool must have been great for washing hides and cleaning skins etc but the stink left behind must have been awful when tide went out !


A guy called Ainsworth went wandering round Birkenhead in 1850 and wasn't too complimentary about Tranmere Pool:

"Returning up Price-street, which is another of "the grand streets," I found shops and houses unoccupied, with some unfinished and going to ruin. At the upper end there are indeed about thirty respectable houses occupied and in good condition, which looks quite remarkable here. On passing along I perceived a most villanous odour, something like gas—but much worse; and on asking my companion what abomination there was in that street to cause it, was informed it did not arise from anything in that street or near, but from a place called Tranmere Pool, nearly a mile off; and that the nearer I approached the nuisance, the more offensive I should find it, and that it pervaded at times the whole town, varying in intensity of stench according to the direction of the wind. On going to my friend's house, he gave me a report to read as to the sanitary condition of Birkenhead : from it I annex an extract,* and can only add, that from my own experience the effect produced by this “monster nuisance" is not overdrawn.

* One monster nuisance, Tranmere Pool, I regret to say, is not at all likely to be abated, the opinion of the authorities being that it is of too great a magnitude to come under the Nuisance Removal Act; this said nuisance (in extent upwards of a quarter of a mile in length), nearly the whole of which is one continued mass of abomination, consisting of all sorts of decomposed animal and vegetable matter, and sending forth an effluvia of so offensive and deleterious a nature as often to make the houses in the neighbourhood, particularly in Clifton Park, almost uninhabitable. Unless the Nuisance or some other Act can strike at this fearful seat of pestilence, Birkenhead can never be considered as being in a proper sanitary state.—Extract from Report of Dr. Hunter Robertson on the Sanitary State of Birkenhead. 1848."

There's some wonderfully descriptive words in there - you can almost smell it!
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 1:46pm
Rough estimate of where Birkenhead Ferry and Tranmere Ferry were present day?

Attached picture 2 BHEAD & TRANMERE FERRIES.jpg
Attached picture Birkenhead & Tranmere Ferries estimate.JPG
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 2:07pm
In 1905 Mr J C Paterson (one of his descendants Owen Paterson - now Secretary of State for Northern Ireland)established the British Leather Co in its present form (now burnt down and demolished 1993) I was always told there was a well there at one time, fed by a stream running down Chamberlain st
Not another mysterious stream - more sleepless nights for geekus! I seem to remember that when the factory burnt down the area was covered by a fallout of asbestos ash and there was a big court case brought by residents who were affected.
Posted By: Geekus Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 3:18pm
...starting to feel queasy already nightwalker. Hope it's not Weil's disease! sick

By the way, there's an interesting article on public health and Wallasey Pool during the 1840's. It's in Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire & Cheshire, vol.150. Devastating effects of the Cholera outbreak in 1848-9, etc. People used to chuck all sorts of things in these rivers and pools, which was okay when they were tidal, but once the docks started getting built and it stopped the tides things started getting a bit nasty.

Must go. Need to get tablets.... doh
Posted By: yoller Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 30th Mar 2011 7:52pm
Here's some more info on the location of Tranmere Pool, taken from Birkenhead Priory and the Mersey Ferry, by R. Stewart-Brown, published in 1925.
Explaining the siting of the priory on the headland of Birkenhead, he writes: 'On the south, where Abbey Street represents approximately the line of the old river bank, the outlook was over the wide expanse of Birket (Tranmere) Pool, then of far`greater extent, but much curtailed in the last hundred years, particularly in the later period.
'The New Chester Road through Tranmere may be taken as representing the old strand line of the Pool as far as Green Lane Station, about which point the Pool ran inland to the west for nearly a mile, and at high tide most of the land now occupied by the gasworks, railway sidings, the Central and Town stations, was under water.
'The Pool could be forded until about 100 years ago, at low tides in the summer, by stepping stones approximately on the line of New Chester Road between Green Lane and Abbey Street, and probably this method of approaching the Priory was a very ancient one.
'It was not until the spring of 1790 that an embankment to carry the new turnpike road was made at the mouth of Tranmere Pool to a height which rendered it passable for general traffic above the highest spring tides.'
.... The shockingly polluted state of the Pool in the 19th century, which Nightwalker, Littlestan and Geekus have pointed out, contrasts sharply with the way it was at the time of the Priory - when it was the site of fishyards, with the monks claiming the right to some of the catches.
Posted By: marty99fred Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 31st Mar 2011 12:48pm
Originally Posted by nightwalker
Great stuff, yoller. Could the map be showing the 'illegal' railway line? According to wikipedia "The station [Monks Ferry] was originally opened without authority in April 1838. However, due to the objections and legal proceedings of the operators of the Woodside Ferry the station closed until it was purchased and reopened on 23 October 1844 via an extension of the line from Birkenhead Grange Lane". This would confirm the date of the map as about 1838.



Wikipedia strikes again, this time inventing a phantom 'illegal railway'! Monks Ferry did indeed start operating in 1838, but only as a ferry service - there was no railway station. The railway extension to Monks Ferry wasn't started until October 1843, the first train running in October 1844 (at least that bit in Wikipedia is right).
Originally Posted by marty99fred
Wikipedia strikes again, this time inventing a phantom 'illegal railway'! Monks Ferry did indeed start operating in 1838, but only as a ferry service - there was no railway station. The railway extension to Monks Ferry wasn't started until October 1843, the first train running in October 1844 (at least that bit in Wikipedia is right).

verysorry You're dead right, of course. I should have checked out the 'facts' on Wikipedia before posting them.
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Apr 2011 9:50pm
Originally Posted by littlestan
Tranmere Pool fascinates me as well . I was going to refer to Sidelights on Tranmere but you beat me to it . There is a great book showing the paintings
of Herdman and he did one of Tranmere Pool with the tide out. My copy of this book has gone missing in my house somewhere !
The first tanneries in Birkenhead grew up alongside the Tran Pool where the Gas
works were later built. The 1st Welsh Courts were built here also-this is according to the book Byegone Birkenhead by J.Kaighan,written in 1925 . I am guessing that Welsh drovers brought cattle into the growing town in the 1820s/30s . Tidal pool must have been great for washing hides and cleaning skins etc but the stink left behind must have been awful when tide went out !



What were the Welsh Courts - were they the tenements around Back Chester street which became bad slums?
Would like to see the pics of Herdman - would there be any in the museum?
There are a lot of William Herdman prints of Liverpool in the Lancashire Gallery HERE
HERE is his picture of St Mary's tower looking across tranmere pool

Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 2nd Dec 2011 11:10pm
When was Borough Road Birkenhead built.
I've just been reading a couple of pdfs and was wandering if when they built the embankments for the Old and New chester Roads did they then cut off the tidal flow of the Tranmere Pool and what happened to the Happy Valley stream.
It appears it may have been diverted into open sewers


Description: off pdf of the Happy Valley
Attached picture the glacial period Happy Valley.jpg
Attached picture tranmere pool sanitation wiki.jpg
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Jan 2012 12:12pm
Anyone know which name for it was referred to the earliest?
the Pool
Birkett Pool
Tranmere Pool
Birkenhead Pool

"Sidelights of Tranmere" refers to it as Birkett Pool 1659

also
In the painting you can see Green Lane and the railway bridge
no sign of the station, the Brittannia or the Queens nor does it look like New Chester Road had been built



Attached picture The Old Castle Hotel, New Chester Road, Birkenhead, Wirral.jpg
Originally Posted by derekdwc
In the painting you can see Green Lane and the railway bridge no sign of the station, the Brittannia or the Queens nor does it look like New Chester Road had been built


Given that the Castle Hotel was at the junction of Green Lane and New Chester Road, one would assume that it's New Chester Road running across the picture in the foreground...
Posted By: Norton Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 9th Jan 2012 9:34pm
The 1874 - 1875 1:2500 OS map corresponds quite nicely with the detail in the painting. The map can be viewed here - OS Map over Green Lane 1874 I'm just trying to put the painting into relationship with other things we know.

In 1830, New Chester Road was constructed. I've not seen any reference to the nature of the road surface, but it was supposed to be higher than the highest tides would reach, due to the building of an embankment. In 1840, the railway from Chester to Green Lane opened and in December 1863 the Tranmere (pool) branch opened. On 1st April 1878 Green Lane junction to Birkenhead opened.

As has been noted about the painting - we have New Chester Road in the foreground, and the Green Lane railway bridge but no obvious station. I've noticed that over to the right is a large gatepost with a ball shaped top. If you look at the map, parallel to New Chester Road there is a road called Foundry Lane, which appears to be gated and internal to the shipyard. Could this be part of its gates?

On the map, just north of Green Lane, a branch of the railway goes east to serve the southern end of the shipyards. Then at Waterloo Place the railway line divides and branches off to the west, via a cutting under the Haymarket, to serve the docks, while the right-hand branch tunnels its way under Ivy Street Lower, to emerge on the north side of Ivy Street, by its junction with Church Street, and then on towards Monks Ferry. A few years later the tunnel to Woodside was dug next to it and Town Station was created. One little point of interest is that on the map, what now call Tunnel Road is named as Old Chester Road (There are other posts about this). One thing the map does not confirm is if it was called Tranmere Pool at the time. This is most probable as it is next to Tranmere Beach.

With a little artistic licence, I'm sure the painter could well have had the tide that high above the high water mark on the OS Map.

Does anyone know the actual date of it? At the moment I'd say that it was shortly before 1874.
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 9th Jan 2012 10:00pm
The gatepost could be the start of the Tranmere Ferry
Posted By: chriskay Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 9th Jan 2012 10:47pm
Norton; I don't think there was ever a station at Green Lane on the Chester-Birkenhead line. The terminus was at Grange Lane. That would be why there's no evidence of a station in the painting.
Posted By: yoller Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 9th Jan 2012 11:03pm
Could the gatepost in the picture be the location of a toll gate? I think the New Chester Road was a turnpike road around this time.
Looking at the large scale 1875 OS plan, it is clear that the end of Foundry Street was blocked off in some way, so I suspect the gatepost was connected with the entrance to Maxwell's Tranmere Foundry - particularly as by the time of the 1899 OS revision both the Foundry and the gateway had gone. It's definitely nothing to do with the Ferry, as the entrance to this was much further down towards the ferry slip, next to the Shipbuilding Yard.

I have a nice photo of the Tranmere Ferry Gates that I will post tonight, together with a couple of pics of the old Tranmere Castle Hotel, which will provide an interesting comparison with the painting. The old Hotel, which had been a free house, was bought by Thelfall's in April 1896 and they submitted plans for a new building in December 1897. The new Castle Hotel (ex-Hotel California, now Revolver) opened in December 1899, after which the old building was demolished, the site now forming the car park of the present pub.
As promised here are the pics of the Tranmere Ferry pay-gates and waiting-rooms, and the then Royal Castle Hotel. The Hotel photos date from between May 1896 and November 1899, when David Cross was the licensee under Threllies. The Ferry pic is undated, but may well have been taken by the same photographer. Note the typical castellated architecture, similar to that evident on 19th-century pictures of both Woodside and Birkenhead Ferries.

Attached picture Tranmere Ferry 1.jpg
Attached picture Royal Castle Hotel 1.jpg
Attached picture Royal Castle Hotel 2.jpg
Posted By: bri445 Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 12th Jan 2012 8:34am
Nice clear photos.
Note the 'Hurry along, please' bell in the ferry photo! Probably heard over a good distance because of its height.
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 12th Jan 2012 4:26pm
Originally Posted by marty99fred
. Note the typical castellated architecture, similar to that evident on 19th-century pictures of both Woodside and Birkenhead Ferries.

Would the castellated architecture have been a current fad at the time or meant as a defensive structure in case we were ever invaded by a foreign army?
Thanks for posting the plcs, I do like how clear they are, did you scan them if so at what resolution please?
Posted By: marty99fred Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 13th Jan 2012 12:53pm
The style of architecture is typical of the late Gothic Revival, or Gothick, style that became immensely popular in the first half of the 19th century. Large numbers of houses and many public buildings were built all over the country decorated with elements derived from Medieval cathedrals and castles, and many existing buildings, even humble farmhouses and pubs, had elements such as battlements and towers added to give them an air of faux-antiquity. Many of the properties were even given names incorporating words like 'Castle', 'Abbey' or 'Priory', to add to the illusion. Well-known local examples include Childwall Hall, where even the farm outbuildings had battlements, the neighbouring Childwall Abbey Hotel, and Anfield Priory, a small crenellated house that gave its name to Priory Road, Anfield, and was demolished to make way for the Crematorium. On Wirral, of course, we had the likes of Liscard Castle on Seaview Road and Heswall Castle on Telegraph Road, and countless mid-Victorian villas that incorporated features such as church-style windows and battlemented bays and cornices.

The photos were scanned from some glass lantern slides that once belonged to J E Allison, the local historian and author of 'Sidelights on Tranmere'. I'm fairly certain they were done at 1200 dpi; any more resolution than that would have resulted in a huge file size and no real gain in quality. The original scans are clear enough to make out the Licensee's name over the door!
Posted By: derekdwc Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 11:18am
Originally Posted by derekdwc
Anyone know which name for it was referred to the earliest?
the Pool
Birkett Pool
Tranmere Pool
Birkenhead Pool


Looks like it was Birkenhead Pool before those robbing swine in Tranmere renamed it Tranmere Pool
seeyu seeyu

Attached picture map date [1600x1200].JPG
Attached picture Birkenhead Pool [1600x1200].JPG
Posted By: chriskay Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 5:34pm
And if anyone wants to know what a chain is...it's 4 rods.
Posted By: bri445 Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 8:35pm
Rod, pole, or perch!

'' 22yds = 1 chain
10 chains = 1 furlong
8 furlongs = 1 mile ''

All out of date now and not any use but I can still remember it from way back!

Can't remember what I had for dinner yesterday!
Posted By: Geekus Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 8:38pm
Originally Posted by chriskay
And if anyone wants to know what a chain is...it's 4 rods.


4 rods? think

Rod Stewart
Rod Taylor
Rod Steiger
and Rod Hull raftl


http://www.johnowensmith.co.uk/histdate/measures.htm
Posted By: bri445 Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 9:11pm
O.K. Now name 4 poles...
Posted By: jimbob Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 9:18pm
pole vault.
pole jump
may pole
up the pole
Posted By: jimbob Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 9:19pm
furlongs still in use {horse racing}
Posted By: bri445 Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 9:26pm
Wonder why?
Posted By: chriskay Re: tranmere pool or Birkenhead pool location - 8th Mar 2012 11:39pm
And an acre is 1 furlong X 1 chain = 4840 square yards.

Now let's stop this off-topic nonsense (which I started). blush
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