How many injuries and deaths have to happen before some sort of law on compulsory use of muzzles is brought in.

Monday, Noctorum/Woodchurch - 3 year old!

This is terrible.whats the story behind it
.Dd?xx

poor little soul.

Story is HERE

From what I read the dog was out on it's own,it didn't say whether the boy might of gone up to stroke it or it could of been scared or felt threatened.when I'm out with mine I always get kids & adults comming up & asking can they stroke her.Sometimes kids will come over but the parent says to me did the kid ask.I wouldn't muzzle my dog as she's always on a lead when we're out & I know she's people friendly if she wasn't I'd say so.hope the little boy gets over his injuries.

Then there was the San Diego baby a few days ago.

Parents and baby were in bed together watching TV, mother coughs and dog fatally bites the baby.

read the link, why do people think a dog licenses will stop a stray dog attacking?
what's a licenses going to do that a microchip doesn't do now?

I like starakita have an akita and have people come up and ask does he bite to which I say I don't know it depends what you do to him, they usually walk away and yes he is muzzle when out on walks.

I dont think its realistic to just muzzle all dogs outside the home if thats what you mean DD, because the problem here for instance, is a dog who has strayed away from his home , presumably either without the owner knowing, or with the owner being careless. Another category of attacks it wouldnt stop, is dogs attacking children in their own homes . Animal attacks of most kinds are down to human stupidity one way or another.

I dont know what the answer is -short of keeping dogs muzzled 100% of the time , and I dont agree with that. Id say most of the problem is down to clueless humans, breeding dogs indiscriminately with no regard to temperament , not training/socializing and then not keeping, feeding or excercising them properly, thereby impairing their mental health.

Hope this poor little boy makes a good recovery , and I hope the deranged dog is found soon and destroyed if the attack was as unprovoked as the article suggests, before it attacks someone else. Its very sadfor him as its probably just the result of bad husbandry , but I personally wouldnt ever want the risk of him escaping one day and attacking again.

What's wrong with:-

All dogs above a certain weight to be muzzled in public.
All breeds that typically have above a certain jaw strength or statistically shown to be a higher risk (eg Jack Russells) to be muzzled in public and also to be muzzled when in the same location as a person under 18.
All dog owners to have adequate 3rd party insurance.

The advantage of a licence (permit) is that it can be withheld from someone that has a history of problem dogs or other violent/abusive behaviour.

I know I must come over as a dog hater but I am far from it. I don't own any dogs but I do walk dogs and look after dogs on an entirely voluntary basis. I have a favourite breed (medium sized) which if I owned I would gladly muzzle in public, if all other dogs were muzzled.

My last dog was badly injured by another dog.

The trouble is, we just have too many dogs and too many ignorant owners. Its all too easy. Half the people that have them, shouldnt ! Id prefer to see stringent breeding rules. You dont breed for instance without a licence ,you dont get a licence unless you have attended a proper course to show you know what youre doing, and till the parent dogs have undergone temperament and health tests- to be repeated before each mating.

You pay a set £'s fee for every puppy you breed, to help fund the organization who does the courses and you are only allowed to sell your puppies at the price it cost you to raise them to 10 weeks. If you dont like it, stop breeding.Too many doing it just for money.

Everyone wanting to own a dog should likewise have to pay to undergo a dog care course and pay in advance for a form to get their dog neutered when its time. . If you really really want a dog,youll save and do it.
We should also encourage dog share instead of having dogs shut up for hours and hours on end because owners work full time (frustrated bored unexercised dogs become unpredictable) If you dont want to do dog share and you work long hours, simple , dont get a dog.

I reckon some stringent rules applied to breeding and owning would cut dog numbers drastically. What would be nice, is a balance where more people want dogs, than are easily available - and youd only get one if you jumped through an inconvenient hoop that cost you a fair bit , and then waited till a suitable breeder bred a litter and then hopefully , we would have more careful, dedicated owners, and better kept happier safer dogs.

Cant see that happening though!!!!

Generally speaking , I dont think people should get a dog at all whilst they have children under 5 in the house , so Id make it illegal to sell a dog to them. Yes people get pregnant unexpecedly when they already have a dog, and then Id agree with you , all dogs should be muzzled around small children inside the property rather than them having to part with it.

I dont think , known dodgy breeds or 'jaw' breeds should be allowed to be sold to where theres children under 10 and when they end up there because of unavoidable circumstance yes, muzzle them. I dont think its fair for dogs to be muzzled all the time in the house, but at least a ban as suggested above will keep numbers affected to a minimum.

Yes theres a place for muzzles outside for some dogs off a lead, JRT's as you say, Cockers, some large breeds and 'jaw' breeds. On a lead, I dont think its necessary unless you know you have a dog likely to attack something coming up to it.

I doubt that lurcher x would have been included in your ' muzzle rule' DD, or mine-- theyre usually considered to be nice natured, not necessarily that tall, often lightweights and dont have super clamp type jaws.

Got to say I completely disagree DD. Muzzles make many dogs feel uncomfortable and so more irritable. I know my dog certainly doesn't like being muzzled and he is of the description you would have muzzled. He's a bulldog X staff.

You've got to remember that these animals have feelings too. They are capable of many of the feelings humans have. Also bear in mind that dogs will use their mouths as a defence if being attacked as we would use our hands. So in human terms you are advocating for all humans to have their hands tied, be attached by the neck to an owner and to be let out into a world of potential attackers.

I know in my personal experience it's actually the smaller dogs that attack and bite more. My dog has been attacked 3 times whilst out walking. All dogs have gone for his throat. One was a collie and the other two were jack Russell. All dogs that wouldn't be muzzled based on the above. My dog probably could have done some serious damage if he retaliated but on every ocassion he just lay down.

Vilifying dogs based on size or breed is morally wrong in my opinion. And causing a whole species potential discomfort is even worse.

as a lot of people on here know, i have looked after many many dogs, from great danes to chihuahuas, and most things in between including staffies, bulldogs, pit-cross, the only time i have been injured was by a yorkshire terrier, my own bulldog weighs in at 46kg he was challenged by 2 dogs at the same time and just ignored them, DEED NOT BREED.
i don't know the full stories of the poor kids hurt by dogs, but people forget that it's a two=way deal, teach dogs how to behave around kids, but also teach kids how to behave around dogs. it is very rare indeed that a dog will bite straight away, they will give several signs/warnings. as for muzzling all dogs in public, one of mine is blind, that would leave him very vulnerable. hope the lad is ok

Licensing dogs/owners doesnt work as a concept for motor vehicles, which if obtained and operated legally are anything but 'cheap' same could apply to dog ownership, with proper food, regular vaccinations, vets bills/pet insurance and so on.
Treated in the wrong way, dogs/motor vehicles each can have life threatening impacts, the presence of a license or not won't alter irresponsible behaviour from owners/operators who dont care about potential consequences, as far as i can see.

Really difficult to legislate for things like this, and regarding life threatening consequences statistics from DVLA website, between 2000 and 2013 over 38,000 people killed in Road Traffic Collisions. And thats with licencing, tests etc......

Quote Turnip

Vilifying dogs based on size or breed is morally wrong in my opinion. And causing a whole species potential discomfort is even worse. Unquote.

Morally wrong when viewed in isolation Turnip.Totally agree with you. The sad fact is though that we are not going to put in place stringent rules such as I suggested to improve the quality of owners (and therefore dogs) around, as they wouldnt be able to be easily policed, so it comes down to --do we just accept that some people/children/smaller dogs will get bitten ,often lifechangingly?

Or - should we subject ALL dogs to the unpleasantness of being muzzled ,so we dont morally discriminate against types and breeds ? Or should we try and reduce the likelihood of attacks by looking to see what the statistics say about types and breeds of dogs that are most often involved , and muzzle those ? Which would you pick - or is there another alternative you have in mind?

Like DD, I hasten to add I love dogs .

I wouldn't like to muzzle Misty.As some of you know,she's diabetic & has cataracts she has sight but not very good.If she was muzzled & an unmuzzled dog came rushing at her she would feel threatened as she doesn't know what it's going to do.I use the canny collar which I find really good.she's a 42kilo dog & strong but that gives me total control even if a yapper comes charging at her.Kids should be taught to respect dogs like us they have their off days or may be nervous,it's about being a responsible owner,alot of problems with dogs come from bybs only care about money not health or temperament of the dog.

Dogs are hundreds of times more adaptable than humans, look at the dogs with wheels for back legs, look at new born pups - they both adapt in a day.

If the people that call themselves responsible owners don't give a little on things like muzzles then eventually there will be a blanket ban on dogs in public.

The other problem we have is that humans (including various dog organisations) refuse to acknowledge that many breeds of dogs have not been humanised/domesticised fully and still have an inbuilt hierarchical pack structure. If humans don't administer corrective punishment on occasions and correctly respond to the dogs dominant/submissive gestures then the dog's natural instincts are left in a confused and unstable state.

It is 100% natural for animals to have fights to establish the pecking order. Bribery in the form of food, gifts or attention are very short term behavioural controls, much longer behavioural controls have to be established by proving the pecking order when a dog shows dominant behaviour.

alas, a lot of owners are not dog aware, they see a fluffy little pup, not realising it could grow up to be a handful.
socialising is of the utmost importance,
not just other dogs, but people and places, situations where they could get spooked etc,
a dog is like a child, they need boundaries and limitations.
there can be only one pack leader and its not the dog !

spot on egg,like my dog they are like little fluffy teddy bears as pups but if not socialised or given boundaries they become a problem & end up in rescue,they also shed the full coat twice a year.Another thing I don't hold with is this cross breeding getting the traits of two separate breeds like Akita/husky one's a hunter one's a sled dog people paying hundreds for a mongrel basically.

Adding to that, I don't understand anyone paying anything for a dog, there are enough rescue dogs to go round.

Buying a dog at stupid money prices to show how rich you are is the wrong reason to have a dog.

or as a status symbol,my Misty came from the pound & I would take on a rescue again

Can you explain what you mean?

I already did but I'm not going to let it get pulled out of context.

OurBertie was a gift.

Muzzling all dogs in public does that go for working dog like sheep dogs I think if we looked in to it we'll find that yorkie are the dogs that bite the most, why stop at dogs being muzzled how's about gloves for cats or nappies for pigeons I jest but it would be fun seeing police dogs going after crooks with muzzles on

Yes Yorkies might possibly come under 'statistically more likely to bite than some', as might Cockers and Kerry blues ,but large Retrievers be excluded. Thats the point, maybe fairer if done statistically.

Cats dont usually go 'claws out' for people, unprovoked and when was someone last knocked senseless by a pile of pigeon poo? --but I take your point, its not that easy a line to draw , and there would be a lot of unfairness, but less maimed children .

Sheepdogs tend to work more remotely on private land, and as for police dogs -yes I think maybe they should be an exception in exceptional circumstances like where the target is not amongst other poeple .

Bottom line is any dog can turn on you no matter what breed they are.
Just like humans.Maybe they have a day they don t feel well or in some sort of discomfort.
For example a kid maybe pull the family dogs tail repeatedly till the dog cannot take anymore and yes it will turn on them.

Police dogs are trained to do there duty same as sniffer dogs to seek for bombs or drugs no need to muzzle them they know who is boss.

I hate seeing things like that especially when kids are involved,when the grand kids come round,we always make sure we never leave the dog in the same room alone,not even for a second as much as I trust my dog,why take any chances.

That would be, in my opinion-a classic example of poor dog ownership. Why would anybody allow a child to pull a dogs tail?

My Grand-daughter, not yet 18 months old encounters Our Bert at every visit. She is unsure of him at the moment, sometimes she laughs and giggles, other times she 'hides' from him.

As he is ten times her size (at least), they have only ever really met through the 'baby gate' at the moment.

I never leave the Grandkids alone with Misty,the same with my other Akita I got her then found out I was pregnant but dog & baby plus the 2 that came along after were introduced under supervision & never left alone.My Grandson is 7 & youngest Grandaughter is 3 they are a bit wary of Misty probably because she is so big to them.Kids need to learn to respect the dog she doesn't always want to play.

But what did the kid do?

My cat attacked my stepdads grandson once, and by attacked i mean the cat was asleep on my bed and the kid started poking and pulling the cat even after a few warnings from myself for him to stop but he kept doing it, anyway the cat had enough and lashed out scratching the kid down his arm and so the kid ran off crying and his mum came up to have a whinge that my cat attacked her darling child when in fact i told her what happened and that frankly the kid probably deserved it for testing my cats patience for so long.

The point i'm making is that animals don't attack without a reason to so the kid may have poked and prodded the dog or scared it or something. If a medium-large dog wanted to severely harm a small child then it could very easily but a bit of blood and a small scratch seems to be a warning shot from the dog as if to say "stop that" remember that dogs can't speak, their form of communication when hurt or annoyed and want someone or something to leave them alone is to hit back once with a bite (cats have more control over their claws so they usually scratch)

I'm not saying that all dogs are placid, of course some a bred as attack dogs (either formally by the police/military or informally by tossers who think they're hard and usually have plastic bodykits added to their £300 nova) but most family pet dogs generally don't mean to hurt anyone unless pushed to snap back.

My dog's breed has a natural guarding instinct doesn't have to be taught,the Japanese women used to leave them guarding the kids while they worked in the rice fields.They've had their fare share of bad press when maybe they have just been protecting their property or owner although some have been down to bad ownership & not researching the breed.My dog when I got her had a habit of mouthing,she doesn't do it so much now but when she wants something she will take my hand in her mouth but she could crush it if she wanted to but she doesn't she's very gentle,wouldn't like to think what she could do if someone attacked me while she was with me.

This would only work if every dog was muzzled .. maybe I would feel more comfortable letting him off his lead without fear of other dogs provoking him ..

"me an Misty, ... best friends

That's because she's got to know you.