What are your views?

I mean you might think you wouldn't need a vet to know that a creature ripped apart alive would die in agony, but just in case you do. Their obsession with fox hunting is emblematic of a larger truth about Tories, I think...namely that it doesn't matter who suffers, their "right" to do exactly what the hell they like overrides the happiness, health and very lives of plebs...ahem, I mean foxes. Tally fooking ho.

Vets say hunted foxes die in agony


Harrowing evidence that foxes and hares killed by dogs suffer painful deaths has dealt a blow to pro-hunt supporters who claim that blood sports are not cruel.
Tomorrow the Home Secretary, Jack Straw, will announce that the Government is to table a Bill offering a range of options on the future of hunting. The pro-blood sports Countryside Alliance was hoping that the lack of evidence of cruelty would help its campaign.

But independent forensic evidence by university veterinary surgeons on foxes killed by hunts and hares caught by greyhounds during coursing show that it is extremely rare for hunted animals to be killed instantly.

Post-mortems commissioned by the Home Office inquiry into hunting - and seen by The Observer - show no evidence to support claims by hunt supporters that foxes are killed by a 'quick nip to the back of the neck' and finds that in many cases foxes are disembowelled first. Five of the 12 hares killed were pregnant, and all had their necks broken by humans after bites by greyhounds had failed to kill them.

Independent vet Professor David Morton, who heads the department of biomedical ethics at Birmingham University, has examined the post-mortems carried out by vets from Bristol and Cambridge universities. He said: 'The fact that none of the animals died instantly clearly shows that they would have suffered. But probably more important is the mental distress these animals would have suffered before they were killed or caught.'

Vets from Bristol University examined the corpses of four foxes killed by hunting. Two of the foxes were shot, having gone to ground. Although the first fox hunted in Cotswold Park near Cirencester was killed by a single bullet, the post-mortem examination found evidence of 'trauma before death'.

The second fox hunted on Salisbury Plain had to be shot twice. Having gone to ground a terrier with a radio collar was sent down, and after 25 minutes of digging the fox was found. The first shot went through the animal's shoulder and failed to kill it, so another shot was required.

Advertisement

But the post-mortem of the fox found it had suffered from multiple bite wounds on the face and the top of the head, damage to the right eye, and bite wounds round the throat.

In both cases where the fox was killed above ground by hounds, evidence was found of 'profound trauma'. In neither case was there major damage around the head or neck, as pro-hunt supporters claimed. The post-mortems showed the foxes had been attacked around the rib cage with the heart, lungs and stomach bitten. Morton said: 'In one case, the fox probably died from suffocation which might have taken several seconds, and in the other, where the heart was severely damaged, it looks the fox would have been attacked while upside down or on its side.'

But the post-mortems of animals killed in hare-coursing paint an even more disturbing tale of animal cruelty. The 12 post-mortems by vets of Cambridge University show that it is probable that 11 of the hares were not killed by the greyhounds despite suffering severe injuries through bites. The vets concluded that their deaths were likely to have been caused by men breaking their necks after they had been caught.

The hares' agonising deaths were revealed in The Observer in March when hidden film was taken of the premier hare-coursing event, the Waterloo Cup, attended by members of the Burns inquiry team. In some cases, men made several attempts to break the hare's neck after greyhounds fought over it.

This latest evidence of animal cruelty comes as an investigation by the International Fund for Animal Welfare revealed how the Royal Beaufort Hunt - used by Prince Charles, his sons and Princess Anne - has been breaching the rules of hunting. Hidden cameras filmed how an employee of the hunt had been rearing fox cubs for hunting. Animal rights groups want legal action to be taken against the master of the hunt, who include Captain Ian Farquhar, a close friend of Prince Charles.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jun/11/hunting.ruralaffairs?CMP=share_btn_fb

dont think its a tory problem its a c**t problem cant understand how anyone could think killing animals is ok

It's a 'Tory problem' because it is the Tory Gov't who are wanting to overturn the Hunting Ban.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/do-not-repeal-the-fox-hunting-ban?bucket=blast

Petition signed. Only sicko's could get off on seeing innocent animals killed.

signed. evil Bast#rds.

Signed. Fox hunting should have gone the way of bear-baiting, cock-fighting etc, long, long ago. Just because it's 'traditional' doesn't make it right.

That article was 2000 .All that pain was pre Tory rule . Foxes and Hoi-poloi dont feel pain these days.

Happy to sign .I am sure you would find more than Tories on the hunts--plenty of landowners around with big Labour signs on their land and UKIP. But I do like the analogy ...namely that it doesn't matter who suffers, their "right" to do exactly what the hell they like overrides the happiness, health and very lives of plebs...ahem, I mean foxes.

However its an analogy we may also need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves the same question.

I am not against hunting (for food or to some degree pleasure --as I fish ) but this method of hunting and the end result does seem barbaric and outdated and serving little purpose other than enjoying the kill. If guys want to dress up and ride horses across fields with a load of doggies then that's up to them but is it necessary to get pleasure from ripping an animal apart? If it is a valid form of pest control then ok but I doubt it is.

I'm not in favour of hunting but there's no doubt about the increase in the fox population as a result of the ban. When I lived in the country I used to shoot foxes at the request of the local poultry farmers and I can tell you that I, as an ex-member of the Bomber Command rifle team, found it remarkably difficult to get within the necessary 100 yards to take a confident shot: they are almost as crafty as crows.

Maybe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and rather than city and town dwellers trying to make decisions for the farming community, they may also like to consider the plight of the baby lambs that are torn apart and the hens that are killed by the foxes.

So control has to be used and fox hunting still goes on today in the rural areas, although not on horseback. Just a different type of sport, which the fox could end up maimed and injured and have a long slow painful death anyway, which is worse in many ways.

Must add, neither do I agree with the 'Tally Ho' brigade, but it is probably a quicker way to flush out the foxes.

Granny ,the argument goes that foxes rarely take live lambs, they mostly take afterbirths and unviable lambs? Couldnt hill farmers bring down and keep mums and newborns in barns for a couple of weeks if they wanted to keep a eye on them whilst at most vulnerable-wouldnt that be good practice any way ?

As for feathered stock, Im a firm believer in making hen/duck houses/fencing that will withstand foxes . Decent guage sunken weldmesh at correct height properly posted etc , thick wood and foxproof catches on henhouses . Foxes are opportunists - make it hard and they move on to something easier.

Fox traps are widely available and being quite lazy scavengers, foxes are quite gullible to them.

There is absolutely no need for barbaric bloodlust of hunts etc by humans - it is invariably just wild pack behaviour similar to the gang fights of the 1960s.

Foxes aren't rapid multipliers like rabbits or rats, simple humane controls of population size are very achievable provided the programs are correctly coordinated.

Signed, still a bit worried that the Tories might substitute the unemployed for a substitute fox

The Tally Ho gang are not interested in farmers plight with fox control,it is purely a sport for the blood thirsty. This should never be excepted in this day and age.

Why do farmers still have the need to control foxes ?

I am quite sure, that if there wasn't a need, farmers would still not be going to the expense or the bother of hunting them . (because they're tight so and so's)

Generations of farmers seem to know their land better than we do, and how to run it best. What would worry me, is that if laws become more restricted, they could easily turn to traps because they will get rid of Mr. Fox, no matter what our ignorant opinions are.

Forgot to say, foxes can also contaminate cattle with the diseases they can carry particularly foot and mouth. If they get out of control in numbers it would be an almost impossible task to resolve. Remember the last outbreak of that ? Millions of animals slaughtered. Apparently the stench of burning carcasses was dreadful.

At the end of the day, farming is a business and to take the risk of all your stock being struck off, is probably something that nobody would be happy with ? If you run a business, then you can understand .

Haven't all the foxes moved to the city now? Will be good to see the Cheshire Hunt riding down Cleveland Street!

As for the "return of fox hunting", its quite simple - lobby your MP to vote against the bill.

Why do artificially constructed fox dens get put in place by hunt helpers? To make sure foxes stay in the areas the hunt members find attractive to ride in.

Why do farmers put up with the hunts even though they trample crops sometimes ? No , its not that the hounds catch REALLY helpful numbers of foxes , as the hunts will tell you, most get away 'safely' ---its that the hunts very conveniently relieve the farmers of the task of paying the meat man to come and take away carcases of fallen stock , a service which he otherwise would have to pay for . Free meat for the hounds .

Yes DD foxes DO fall for humane traps. Wirral Council provided them for Wirral fox group at one time, and foxes were regularly caught that way.

I love foxes, we have 2/3 that visit our garden each night.

Its like the badgers issue
Not stopping the root issue . Just kill everything at the end.
It costs more to shoot them than vaccinate yet its not just them that transmits disease .
Id start a new sport shooting toss pots on horses riding in packs 20 mins head start, chase em on motorbikes . Live stream it on the net. Be cool ha ha.
Sound bad? Barbaric ?The irony...

Foxes are beautiful sentient beings like all natures expressions of life....
Leave em the f**k alone.!!

Nah, let them run until they are exhausted/ beyond exhausted.

Set up a fox refuge in some unused bank: they couldn't make a worse mess than certain humans.

It would keep the metal thieves out as well as rats.

I hate hearing about things like fox hunting,badger hunting,deer hunting its sick.
It should not be allowed.
It is cruel.
Another one is not as much as a sport but for pure entertainment,and that is ......dog fighting or watching 2 or 3 dogs rip a cat in bits.
It is really sick.

Ironically, whilst sorting out years of accumulated rubbish yesterday, I came across an old newspaper, going back to 1997 about the Countryside Alliance march against the proposed ban on fox hunting. I think there were about 250,000 marching on Westminster. It wasn't a national newspaper, but it did cover all the worthy news and interviews with supporters. Amazingly, the interviews all seemed to ring of one thing......'it will spoil our tradition, what will be next ?' Not all were in those exacts words, but similar with the same inference behind them.

Maybe foxes should be reclassified in England and Wales, as something other than vermin.

The one that poked his nose into my kitchen a couple of years ago, looked pretty mangey (sp ?) and tatty.

Many different methods used for fox control worldwide. Australia poisons them, where as Wirral Borough Council use traps ! (is that for real)? I understood that Councils play no part in controlling them, other than giving advice.

The council traps are cage traps, the animal is entrapped alive and physically unharmed however non-locking snares are still legal. I'm not sure the council, provide traps any longer, I think you get refereed to rent-a-kill or similar pest control companies.

Just as shaun monson shows us in his doc "earthlings" we divide by form.
One animal is cute .a pet. Other is vermin dirty or food.
We do it to each other. "Youre the in group;and were the out group"
This is the essence of meaningless religion.youre ok theyre not ok. Not accepted .
Yes foxes attack lambs . Spread infection.
Its the natural order. Kill them but instantly humanely.
Not for thrills.
Ironically a farmer wants rid of em so his lambs grow up for food. Irony. A circle.
Theres no more a destructive evil selfish
war mongering dirty animal than the human.
We make £ money out of animals as much as we can.....food clothing sport research as shaun showed us.

Sven ,understood all of your points, and as true as some of the thinking behind them is, I would like you to explain how we would have managed to get so far on this planet without the processes of evolution, or the ability to sit on top of a hill and chew turnip sprouts, whilst planning our next strategic operation of self preservation from those wild animals down below.

Unfortunately, your ideal world is not a viable proposition any longer, but would certainly agree that the many who are strongly opposed to Fox Hunting, should maybe look at their own diet and the process of how it ends up from farm to the table in front of them. Hanging a cow upside down or putting a pig still alive in boiling water is far worse than a fox being hunted and remember, eating meat is also for our pleasure as we don't need it!

There has to be two channels of thought on this subject for everyone.

Blood sports ?

http://www.meatvideo.ca/ Pledge to go vegetarian

[youtube]HMbWPA-lvKg[/youtube]

Sorry could not watch all of this Granny ,It is really upsetting.

Isn't it ? Click on the meatvid link to sign the pledge to go vegetarian. I have been sent loads of veg recipies.

Okay will sign it.Thanks for sharing this one.
joined there facebook page.

If ever there was a reason for going veggie, then that's it ! Notwithstanding, I do like a nice Lamb Chop or Pork Steak.

No, I didn't watch it all either.

Eating meat isnt the problem. Its how we treat or miss treat the meat to max out the profit.
"Food inc" is a good movie to watch.
It WILL be our own ultimate demise how we treat our food. Fill it with crap to make it grow faster or change its dna . And so on.
Theres too many of us consuming all the time. Were addicted to hydrocarbons and the junk we "own".
Its the very reason why we were obsessed with advancement thatll be the route to our very demise.
Watch bbc "surviving progress" another good doc

As carlin said "remove electricity from society and youll soon see humans revert to the savagery that we look down on "
We go on about how top of food chain we are yet kill each other and living things for religion or fun.
We associate an animals skin with luxury and were addicted to consumption thats meaningless.
.we still cant get on. Human race ==dumb.
Charlton heston said in planet of the apes 1968 "wheres man...that paradox of the stars, that marvel ...does he still keep his neighbours children starving ....make war against his brother "
No change in that.

Disgusting, I hate countries like America and Canada for their righteous preaching to other countries when they have got loads of major things wrong in their own countries.

Going vegetarian is definitely not the answer, if all this country went vegetarian the increase in farming would have a very major impact on wildlife (animal, insect and plant), we would also impact food and wildlife in 3rd world countries who are already short of food to feed themselves.

Globalisation doesn't help, it drives prices down to the cheapest source where the uncontrolled practices happen and gives the competitors little option other than to copy the same bad practices behind closed doors.

What needs to happen is that bad practices are taxed out of existence, you can write as many laws, guidelines and codes of practice as you like, but its the economics that will control things.

It is up to the government to show some metal and control these things, the EEC especially has phenomenal power due to its size yet seem to be too busy attacking some petty rights within their own borders.

Mandatory cctv as animal aid says is a way foward first step.
Theres loads of cruelty in the uk
Look up...cheale meats. Thirsk halal & the infamous harling farm etc

The USA had the humane slaughter laws in place but there was zero funding to inspect and enforce it until about 2004, which considering the tax revenues the sector generated proved the act was a token effort.

The UK has had slaughter inspection regimes since about 1933 and businesses have been regularly prosecuted and were prosecuted before that date.

Unfortunately it is the nature of the business that rogue employees will let employers down and perhaps CCTV is the way forward - but then the privacy die-hards get up in arms.

This topic is about Blood Sports. There is already a topic about animals bred for food.

Under the patriot act in the usa filming undercover cruelty is illegal...thats mad.
Soz rude box but its all inter connected with this issue.

The connection between the treatment of food animals and the hunting of foxes is rather tenuous.

I'm sure kicking a pig round a slaughterhouse would be classed as a sport by some people. Just like others call fox hunting a sport.

My original thought on the connection between blood sports and cruelty of animals in the food chain, was to highlight that those who think fox hunting is cruel and should not be reintroduced, for whatever reasons, will no doubt be enjoying a Sunday lunch or a few barbeques this weekend, without any consideration for how the animals ended up on their plates.

Double standards!

I think most of us would prefer the animals to be treated humanely, we are natural carnivores, its strange how some like to preserve wildlife and nature but think it wrong that we are carnivores and try to be unnatural vegetarians.

We pay our taxes to pay the Government to ensure that animal abuse is discouraged and punished.

The majority of animals in the UK are slaughtered more humanely than ever before. Less animals are hunted in the UK than ever before. More work is required in the keeping of animals but I'd like to think that overall the UK is one of the better one's in the world.

why can't they hunt scousers instead?

Now that I'd gladly pay to watch.