France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders after at least 40 people were killed in multiple gun and bomb attacks in Paris.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-34815972This is pretty bad.
There saying now its over 2 attackers have been killed.
Mark, we've been vaguely discussing it on Jihadi John.
It is bad, still going on I think.
I went to bed early last night so woke up to the terrible news. It's so bad! Really feel that every country will have to get together and go in hard and to hell with what's right or wrong, lawful or unlawful.i know you don't like that DD but there you go. Take them out with whatever it takes. If you can kill off the head of the snake maybe the rest will follow..
It is really worrying,This jihad John, Is he dead.
Even if you beheaded this guy in public,He would not be bothered .
The guy has been brain washed that this is all for allah and he will die as a hero and go to heaven.
Sorry if most disagree but that is terrorists beliefs,
He does not care who he has killed.Even locking him up for life he will still feel the same way.
This attacks on France is just the same.
Scary though....... it could be us next.Who knows what these cold blooded murderers have got planned.
Listening to one of the top men in MI5 (think it was ) on TV last week . He said the public are not aware of how many attempts have been thwarted and that it's not a question of if its when..Its so worrying and depressing.
Similar thoughts. How are these young people so brainwashed , that at a moments notice they can go on an organised killing spree and as if like robots then blow themselves up.
Who or what is controlling these young minds. It's a very powerful ability to have complete control of them all to a point of self destruction.
1500 nationals have returned to France from various training camps around the world. Is it so difficult to pinpoint them ? Maybe we will if Russia comes on board over the same issues.
Despite all the things we don't like about surveillance, and all the complaining I have done about loosing our freedom, things eventually take on a different colour and I think it's a necessary part of , hopefully ,our ongoing protection .
Similar thoughts. How are these young people so brainwashed , that at a moments notice they can go on an organised killing spree and as if like robots then blow themselves up.
Who or what is controlling these young minds. It's a very powerful ability to have complete control of them all to a point of self destruction.
That's exactly what they're like in my opinion - constantly virtually killing people then life imitate 'art' and they are so conditioned to the violence that it means nothing to them. The head honchos are very clever in channelling this violence to their own gain IMHO
The "allies" have killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in these other countries without blinking an eyelid, in most cases - "its collateral damage" And we aren't even at war with these countries.
Then we are surprised that we get retaliatory strikes.
Then we are shocked that we lose a hundred innocent civilian lives.
If Iran had bombed Northern Ireland when we had the IRA problems there, do you think we would not have reacted?
We are playing ping-pong with the lives of civilians - send the politicians over there!
The "allies" have killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in these other countries without blinking an eyelid, in most cases - "its collateral damage" And we aren't even at war with these countries.
Then we are surprised that we get retaliatory strikes.
Then we are shocked that we lose a hundred innocent civilian lives.
If Iran had bombed Northern Ireland when we had the IRA problems there, do you think we would not have reacted?
We are playing ping-pong with the lives of civilians - send the politicians over there!
That's because "we" are the goodies--or we like to think so. Think all the migrants heading this way know a lot more about whats going on than we do fed through the main stream media.
Clever the way certain global politicians and media make it sound that the bombs and carnage they have caused somehow doesn't "terrorise". Terror and terrorism is reserved for the "terrorists". Lets hope we can terrorise them more than they can terrorise us.
And people still insisting we should let in as many refugees as want to come without checks, I think not. Self preservation got to kick in here..Think we should be more stringent and everywhere else should as well. Borders closed in my opinion..I still think there must be somewhere these people can go and be kept together in one place until they can return, it would need all countries to involve and lots of help and money I know , but it's got to ve contained.
I remember weeks ago taking criticism on this forum when I suggested the open door policy was in fact an invitation for terrorists....it now appears that one of the gunmen in Paris was a "Syrian Refugee" who came through Greece
I repeat what I said then close the doors before it is too late
There was a lot of us with you on this organiser and now it's happening, pure madness to make your country vulnerable to attack, and yes I know that we have terrorists allready here but don't lets increase their numbers..
I remember weeks ago taking criticism on this forum when I suggested the open door policy was in fact an invitation for terrorists....it now appears that one of the gunmen in Paris was a "Syrian Refugee" who came through Greece
I repeat what I said then close the doors before it is too late
Yep.He was in Greece seeking asylym.
Border control should take all there mobile phones off them.
I think its time to close the doors.But its far too late.We all saw it coming.
If they want to carry on bringing refugees in they should at least limit it to children with DNA relatives only, it seems a reasonable compromise between safety and humanitarianism.
It would also have the bonus of limiting the amount of young male economic migrants and conscription dodgers in.
In my mind if NATO/UN etc want to do something effective, they should create safe zones inside these countries, not get involved in the civil wars themselves, just create and protect the safe zones with no-go zones surrounding them. Mass migration just ends up creating more problems it doesn't resolve anything.
Civil wars, rightly or wrongly, are part of the development of countries, we've had enough of them in the UK, we should minimise our interference with others.
Tuesday 29 September 2015 18.37 BST
In remarks on the sidelines of the UN general assembly, the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, also raised the possibility of creating a handful of “safe zones” within Syria where displaced people could be protected both from barrel bombs dropped by the Assad regime and from attacks from Isis and other extremist groups.
click
There is no excuse for what these people (ISIL) are doing, it is not because "we" invaded their country or that civilians have been killed, it is because they wish to impose their religion and their beliefs and their way of life on others even people of the same religion, they are the worst kind of bigots religious and fanatical in their beliefs, no amount of turning the other cheek will change their aim, there are many like them in this country insidious and cunning, and sad to say the only way to deal with them is to be as ruthless,they should be charged with treason and deported born here or not.
No Facebook, I will not change my profile pic for a French flag. I stand in solidarity with the people of Paris (and all the other victims of cowardly terrorism) but it is flags (national, imperial, religious) which are behind the killing. Until we learn that we are all equally human, that nations, borders, religions, ideologies divide us, not protect us, there will be killing.
Don't let hate win.
Not fussed on the new Topic Headline 'Peace for Paris -WTF??? Thousands upon thousands of innocent people die every month due to terrorist attacks.....bit close to home now and the media go crazy!!!
What is the differance between dead French people and dead Iraqui people, for instance? All Human lives are precious.
.
There is no excuse for what these people (ISIL) are doing, it is not because "we" invaded their country or that civilians have been killed, it is because they wish to impose their religion and their beliefs and their way of life on others even people of the same religion, they are the worst kind of bigots religious and fanatical in their beliefs, no amount of turning the other cheek will change their aim, there are many like them in this country insidious and cunning, and sad to say the only way to deal with them is to be as ruthless,they should be charged with treason and deported born here or not.
Nah, religion is always the get-out clause used as an excuse, it is not the reason. Same with Northern/Southern Ireland, hide behind the church while doing nasty deeds for other reasons.
So you don't think that bombing them left right and centre, blowing up hospitals, over 200,000 civilian deaths and interfering with their politics isn't a big enough incentive for them having a pop back at us?
Just imagine someone (say Finland?) landing a bomb on one of our hospitals, what would out reaction be?
Unfortunately, I somehow think this could play out in a different way, Casper.
As you say, the whole purpose is to spread their doctrine and throughout Europe. There are also many who have gone to Syria or Iraq from Canada, USA, Australia and many other countries of the world.
Their ideology is being spread worldwide and the bigger picture could show that one Government or one continent will not be able to stop it.
All this terror and murder could come from any angle at any time, from nationals or migrants. Those who choose that path are terrorists with one mission and a continuation of Osama Bin Laden's mission.
Wherever they perform their atrocities , here ,France, Beirut, Egypt, it is still terrorism. The difference is that Europe have welcomed mixed race and tried to integrate, the Middle East don't, they continue to kill their own race in ways that we left behind in the middle ages. Nothing to do with flags (national, imperial, religious ) they've been fighting between themselves for the last 30/40 years and some, since the second world war. Ask the West for help and then blame us for all the wrong doings.
A bit like those in this country who quote everyone else on ethics to suit their cause, don't know what they talk about and flaunt the act of treason. (which used to carry the death sentence. Maybe it should be re-introduced !)
France may not rise up, but I think Germany and their recent approach to the influx of migrants will be the trigger to a very nasty situation, which could easily spread amongst Europe, and get out of control. Here included.
the doors should of been closed years ago but no one listened to the man who told everyone they will take over this country
So they kill and maim their own people by barbaric methods and destroy temples and historical artifacts and fight amongst themselves because "we" bombed them? I understand that the fanatic will join any cause that suits his/her agenda, but these people have the same mindset in following a distorted interpretation of the words of the Quron.
It isn't even to do with the Quran.
Jihaddi John was arrested in Tanzania after being found drunk after a ten hour drinking spree. Muslim's don't drink !
Osama Bin Laden was the son of a billionaire, and although dead, his memory and ambitions don't seem to be.
quote:
In a May 1998 interview with ABC's John Miller, bin Laden stated that the Israeli state's ultimate goal was to annex the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East into its territory and enslave its peoples, as part of what he called a "Greater Israel". He stated that Jews and Muslims could never get along and that war was "inevitable" between them, and further accused the U.S. of stirring up anti-Islamic sentiment...........
Bin Laden's overall strategy for achieving his goals against much larger enemies such as the Soviet Union and United States was to lure them into a long war of attrition in Muslim countries, attracting large numbers of jihadists who would never surrender. He believed this would lead to economic collapse of the enemy countries, by "bleeding" them dry. Indeed, al-Qaeda manuals clearly express this strategy. In a 2004 tape broadcast by al-Jazeera, bin Laden spoke of "bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. "
***
We know that France has a large Muslim population and also the largest Jewish population outside of USA and Israel. I still think Paris is being targeted for this specific reason, and of course the French are very anti-Semitic.
One assailant identified as French with Algerian origin. There are many of them in France.
Well it looks like his plan is coming to fruition, the worlds economies are certainly taking a hit, the bombings and killings are part of a well thought out strategy to undermine the West, we are now being asked to invite the enemy within I know this sounds dreadful but in essence we have the proverbial Trojan horse, and to repeat what I wrote earlier there are many more here that although not as radicalised have sympathies with and will offer refuge to them (ref the Wallasey family arrested on suspicion of internet activity) the best we can do is to be alert to left baggage and suspicious actions of individuals, I know it sounds paranoid but it may help to avert an attack.
All because their imaginary friend is better than our imaginary friend, is better than your imaginary friend............is better than......
Don't forget the security forces are not exactly unbiased in this. The more scared we are, the more money and power they get.
I would rather run the risk of being killed by a terrorist - which is tiny - than turn the country into a police state. When security forces get too powerful they have a very bad record of taking over and running the nation - usually with considerable brutality too.
Our parents went through the war, being bombed by the Luftwaffe, and our cities were largely demolished by it. We survived it. Terrorists are a trivial threat by comparison. We need a sense of proportion about this.
This is a different threat altogether excoriator. Whilst not taking anything from the wars and both my parents served in the forces, at least you knew who your enemy was. These things are prepared to blow themselves up and take out as many as possible. Terrorism a trivial threat , I don't think so! I don't care what precautions are put into place to protect us if it keeps me and mine safe so be it..
Don't forget the security forces are not exactly unbiased in this. The more scared we are, the more money and power they get.
I would rather run the risk of being killed by a terrorist - which is tiny - than turn the country into a police state. When security forces get too powerful they have a very bad record of taking over and running the nation - usually with considerable brutality too.
Our parents went through the war, being bombed by the Luftwaffe, and our cities were largely demolished by it. We survived it. Terrorists are a trivial threat by
comparison. We need a sense of proportion about this.
One point is though, they had some warning when the German bombs were coming. There are no such warnings with terrorist strikes.
Exactly Dilly. I hope truly hope these terrorist attacks never get personnel for anybody on this forumn because I guess none of us know how that would change our views. Again I pray that never happens.
Death toll now 132
Its a bad time, the reports say a good number of the survivors were seriously injured so the toll could rise again, I don't know what the answer is, but I honestly believe that opening the borders without proper controls was a knee jerk reaction and the wrong thing to do, not only does it allow infiltration by terrorists, but puts the genuine asylum seekers under a cloud of suspicion and makes them obvious targets for retaliation and revenge attacks, things could get worse when those refused asylum are told to return from whence they came, and I can see riots when they dig their heels in.
what I don't like about any of the terrorist attack is the way tv news say Death toll is 132 then say one Brit like the other 131 people don't count it was the same with the Turkey and the plane crash so many dead but 20+ are Brit's
Well surely if he's a British reporter broadcasting to Britain that's important to us, just like the other countries will be reporting their casualties. Nothing to do with non brits being as important. Of course it's a tragedy for everyone involved...
What I don't like about the news channels is they have been reporting on this for 48 hours now, non stop. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Maybe fewer staff at a weekend to cover other stuff, but really,.... there have been a few more news worthy happenings since Friday night which so far as BBC are concerned have not been touched, other than on the web.
At the same time, who told you to come out of your box Edd ?
Yeah I know what you mean granny i have not tuned in much as I have seen it but on the other hand this attack us so important and I think game changing. Hopefully it will spur on everybody to get together and countries unite to rid us of this evil...
We can only hope Cools. USA have been bombing Libya. Didn't know that was going on and they have killed the Libyan ISIS leader/commander.
There is much going on that we don't know about, and probably just as well to be truthful.
15 African migrants been shot dead, north of Sinai near Israeli border.Another eight migrants had been wounded in the attack, south of the town of Rafah on the border between Egypt and the Palestinian Gaza Strip.
All Cyprus migrants have agreed to apply for asylum there now, instead of being deported. Pity there was no help for Greece and Italy etc. at the start of all this. Who's idea was the Schengen agreement anyway ?
Mrs Merkel is still not weakening , can't admit defeat.
If anyone is interested how all this globalisation comes together, have a look at the IMF, how it was structured and how the vision was of movement of nations amongst nation and all the things we see today, that have changed our societies .
What I don't like about the news channels is they have been reporting on this for 48 hours now, non stop. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Maybe fewer staff at a weekend to cover other stuff, but really,.... there have been a few more news worthy happenings since Friday night which so far as BBC are concerned have not been touched, other than on the web.
At the same time, who told you to come out of your box Edd ?
I know what you mean Granny I didn't know about the Earthquake In Japan until I seen it on twitter, ps I come out now and then to poke sticks at you all x
Yeah I know what you mean granny i have not tuned in much as I have seen it but on the other hand this attack us so important and I think game changing. Hopefully it will spur on everybody to get together and countries unite to rid us of this evil...
France are bombing Syria right now, maybe tune in once I'm a Celeb finishes....
I knew France would retaliate strong and quick, they don't mess about. Good!!
I knew France would retaliate strong and quick, they don't mess about. Good!!
Dont know why these extremist get so much attention.
Because they are nasty barstard !
According to this article, it could have possibly been a lot worse, or if they could have made him talk, Paris might been averted altogether !
http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...7s-grenades-tnt-paris-programmed-satnav/
Bombing Syria in retribution will just bring more subversive terrorist activity to our own shores, you could flatten the whole of Syria but it will turn into a guerilla war in other parts of the world.
If someone is caught with an arsenal of weapons in a peaceful place like the German case, as far as I'm concerned they have thrown all human rights away - electrodes in places they don't want them etc to make them talk.
Not sure what you mean DD. Do you mean that they could have used electric shock treatment for gaining information ?
He didn't talk, so the methods they used (if any) I'm sure, must have been according to human rights.
Must say, the bombing has a tinge of Bush /Blair tactics which didn't resolve anything. Not sure what the answer is on that one. Although, they have only bombed the training camps etc. No civilians.
Eyewitness says one of the gunmen was white with blonde hair.
quote DD
"If someone is caught with an arsenal of weapons in a peaceful place like the German case, as far as I'm concerned they have thrown all human rights away - electrodes in places they don't want them etc to make them talk."
This doesnt sound in line with your usual line of thought DD - that once you start acting outside the law ,you are as bad as the perpetrators and you lose your credibility for criticizing those who do things we dont approve of?
Im not against your comment particularly , I keep changing my mind about torture, all reports seem to indicate its not effective in so much as you get false info, but on the other hand ,pain to one person in order to save many, seems terrible but justified under certain circumstances .
If someone is caught with an arsenal of weapons in a peaceful place like the German case, as far as I'm concerned they have thrown all human rights away - electrodes in places they don't want them etc to make them talk.
How do you reconcile that statement with your condemnation of the assassination of Jihadi John? The Geneva Convention outlaws torture: either law is to be supreme or it isn't.
Posted before I saw Venice's post.
quote DD
"If someone is caught with an arsenal of weapons in a peaceful place like the German case, as far as I'm concerned they have thrown all human rights away - electrodes in places they don't want them etc to make them talk."
This doesnt sound in line with your usual line of thought DD - that once you start acting outside the law ,you are as bad as the perpetrators and you lose your credibility for criticizing those who do things we dont approve of?
Im not against your comment particularly , I keep changing my mind about torture, all reports seem to indicate its not effective in so much as you get false info, but on the other hand ,pain to one person in order to save many, seems terrible but justified under certain circumstances .
If someone is caught with an arsenal of weapons in a peaceful place like the German case, as far as I'm concerned they have thrown all human rights away - electrodes in places they don't want them etc to make them talk.
How do you reconcile that statement with your condemnation of the assassination of Jihadi John? The Geneva Convention outlaws torture: either law is to be supreme or it isn't.
Posted before I saw Venice's post.
Because there should be a new convention, I am not suggesting it should be done illegally, I'm saying the law should be changed.
Oh, very convenient; you want a new law to conform with your opinion. I'm sure we all want that. As things stand, you are suggesting, or condoning, illegal torture.
France are bombing Syria right now, maybe tune in once I'm a Celeb finishes....
Now we know where your priorities lie: you should be ashamed.
Totally misconstrued my sentence. To be fair I can see how. You are probably all too aware of the context of which it was intended.
There's no room for misconstruction.
Oh, very convenient; you want a new law to conform with your opinion. I'm sure we all want that. As things stand, you are suggesting, or condoning, illegal torture.
Apparently torture is already legal - bombing innocent civilians in other countries would seem to me to fully comply with "the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological pain and possibly injury to an organism"
Looks like Cameron is likely to go ahead in attacking Syria very overtly in whatever way he wants, regardless of whether he gets a yes or no from Parliament. Things are looking extremely dangerous.
...and where next after Syria ? Iraq and/or Libya again. Nigeria, Somalia and every other country they are holed up in ?
Big army needed. Maybe the army of 200 million is not so far away.
Oh, very convenient; you want a new law to conform with your opinion. I'm sure we all want that. As things stand, you are suggesting, or condoning, illegal torture.
Apparently torture is already legal - bombing innocent civilians in other countries would seem to me to fully comply with "the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological pain and possibly injury to an organism"
Your sophistry cuts no ice with me: you know perfectly well that two wrongs don't make a right.
Are you talking about what is morally wrong or what is legally wrong?
It is morally wrong to imprison someone, if someone does something morally wrong knowing that they could be legally imprisoned for it then that becomes legally right even though it is still morally wrong.
Legal punishments are a compromise between morals and the protection of the rest of decent society. When someone is withholding information that is needed urgently for the safekeeping of others I see nothing wrong with torture - the victim is choosing to be tortured by withholding the information.
Whether we trust this sort officials with this power is another matter which also needs sorting out.
It is morally wrong to imprison someone
Words fail me. Are we to let criminals to remain at liberty to continue harming innocent people? Are you in agreement with J.Corbyn who has today said, in connection with the terrorist threat, that he isn't happy with a shoot to kill policy: what are our law enforcers expected to do when faced with a terrorist armed with a Kalashnikov and wearing a suicide belt; ask him to surrender???
A point I mentioned earlier, the French are now looking at removing the citizenship of those involved, a good idea deport them, all the rotten eggs in one basket removed from further infecting those that hate the western way of life and wish to impose their backward ideology and way of living on the rest of us, as to the comments made by excoriator re the war and terrorism, the type of terrorist that we now face will show no mercy to women or children or for that matter anything that can walk or crawl that disagree with their beliefs and will deliver torture and death in the most barbaric manner at least war has guidelines that protect the innocent to a degree.
It is morally wrong to imprison someone
Words fail me. Are we to let criminals to remain at liberty to continue harming innocent people? Are you in agreement with J.Corbyn who has today said, in connection with the terrorist threat, that he isn't happy with a shoot to kill policy: what are our law enforcers expected to do when faced with a terrorist armed with a Kalashnikov and wearing a suicide belt; ask him to surrender???
I don't know what you are smoking DD - but give it up NOW ! That statement of yours takes the biscuit!
It is morally wrong to imprison someone
Words fail me. Are we to let criminals to remain at liberty to continue harming innocent people? Are you in agreement with J.Corbyn who has today said, in connection with the terrorist threat, that he isn't happy with a shoot to kill policy: what are our law enforcers expected to do when faced with a terrorist armed with a Kalashnikov and wearing a suicide belt; ask him to surrender???
I thought you of all people would know what a shoot to kill policy is - its the ability to shoot on suspicion without knowing the Kalashnikov and/or suicide belt is present.
Remember the Jean Charles de Menezes, Harry Stanley, Abdul Kahar, James Ashley, James Brady or Cherry Groce cases? And probably many more.
@pinz - of course its morally wrong to imprison someone, its even more morally wrong that we find ourselves in a position that we find the need to do this. Are we supposed to cage animals because they are dangerous? Of course not - but society does need protecting.
I would like more people to express their opinions of what is right and wrong, what should be permitted outside the law, how the law should be changed etc etc
Very few express their opinions, just their reactions to other peoples comments, I often ask questions and rarely get replies.
I'm not a pacifist and never have I said that, I have not said I am against imprisonment - if anyone wishes to disagree with what I say, please do, but if you want to criticise me then make sure you are criticising what I said and not what you think I am implying.
Pinz, Chris. Read DD's whole sentence in its given context again. Hes not actually saying what you think, hes just doing a bit of moral philosophizing .Not actually sure its an appropriate time, but still.
Now such an ugly atrocity has happened is it the time to change much of our laws administered by Brussels and the EU ?
Note tonight that the blame game has started due to opinions that some of these terrorists from Belgium have listened to the fanatics in Britain.
If I remember correctly, it took years to get rid of that horrible man with one eye and one hand......because the laws from Belgium and EU said it was against human rights. What a battle that was.
How many foreigners are in UK prisons ?
We do cage dangerous animals in a civilised society, and a criminal act is a voluntary act. The criminal knows if they get caught they will be punished in one form or another. That is the choice they make and how else is it possible to protect society...our children, from such deranged animals, other than locking them up or should the vigilanites beat the hell out of them and leave them in a gutter ?
Sure prison can create more problems than they sometimes solve, at the same time the offenders have already caused more problems than the ordinary man in the street should have to deal with.
What other answer is there to protection. Armed police on every corner or maybe the army thus putting everyone at risk ? Police state, is that what we could end up with ?
So far as Corbyn is concerned, he seems to think negotiations are the best way forward. .....in the meantime Mr Corbyn like the next 20 years, you'll be dead and so will everyone else.
So far as Paris being strong and not letting this stop their way of life, isn't that what happened in Syria and Iraq until the point arises when they can't carry on that way any longer ?
Personally, I don't think London will be the target in this country, probably more like Manchester.
Now such an ugly atrocity has happened is it the time to change much of our laws administered by Brussels and the EU ?
Agree.
How many foreigners are in UK prisons ?
About 11,000, and there are less than 1100 UK citizens in foreign jails which is roughly equal to the number of Polish prisoners in our jails.
We do cage dangerous animals in a civilised society, and a criminal act is a voluntary act. The criminal knows if they get caught they will be punished in one form or another. That is the choice they make and how else is it possible to protect society...our children, from such deranged animals, other than locking them up or should the vigilanites beat the hell out of them and leave them in a gutter ?
Sure prison can create more problems than they sometimes solve, at the same time the offenders have already caused more problems than the ordinary man in the street should have to deal with.
Agree
So far as Corbyn is concerned, he seems to think negotiations are the best way forward. .....
Are you saying that negotiations are a bad thing? The final outcome will be negotiations. Beating the hell out of each other first is not necessarily the best way forward and indeed should be a last resort.
So far as Paris being strong and not letting this stop their way of life, isn't that what happened in Syria and Iraq until the point arises when they can't carry on that way any longer ?
Yes!
Personally, I don't think London will be the target in this country, probably more like Manchester.
The "prestige" and show of strength through hitting the capital is probably more important to them, anywhere else will be seen as a degree of weakness.
A lot of other countries see the "allies" as aggressors. There are only 22 countries in the world that the UK hasn't attacked or to put it another way, the UK has attacked very nearly 90% of all countries.
My point about Corbyn thinking negotiations are the way forward , was followed by saying it could take 20 years and we will all be dead.
We don't have time to start negotiating and fumbling about, when you see the amount of time that has transpired in trying to resolve this migrant issue. That is dealing with our own EU countries, so I don't hold out much hope for good results in negotiations any time soon, with either Assad or IS. Particularly not IS as no one can get near them and who would want to, knowing full well they may not even see the light of day ever again ? Assad is not likely to give up anything without force. Therefore negotiations would have to be forceful, and is not what the word 'negotiate' implies.
Therefore, in my opinion that idea is simply not an option at this point in time.
There maybe 90% of countries that the UK have attacked. What period of time would that be and how do we compare with other countries and what were the reasons for attacks ? All of that is to be taken into consideration, and so far we have managed to keep this country safe on most levels. So was it wrong ?
Even if we eradicate every living thing in Syria, ants and all - it still wouldn't end, there would be a plethora of independent networks and how are you going to negotiate then?
The longest period of peace in British history is only 14 years long (1922 - 1936), we are a bloomin' aggressive nation military wise.
Japan an island nation had an impressive 223 years of peace.
New Zealand, another island nation achieved 63 years.
I see Cameron is strengthening our air defences, he's suddenly realised how vulnerable we are. Relying purely on intelligence to defend our homeland while wasting our military funds on offshore forays could well be our eventual downfall.
We try to fight way above our weight militarily, diplomatically and economically and its only a matter of time before the rest of the world get fed up with our antics. We are merely a country, we are no longer an empire. Look at all the other countries that were empires, they have backed down, we haven't got used to the idea yet.
Look at China, a country 40 times bigger than us, a population 22 times greater than us a GDP of 4 times ours, yet they only have the same number amount of nuclear warheads as us, they haven't been involved in any foreign battles in the last 36 years.
We have hardly stopped fighting during the same 36 years:- Oman, Dhofar, Falklands, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sierra Leone, Kuwait, Libya and possibly a few more bits and pieces.
We have had military conflicts with or in about 16 other nations in my lifetime (less than 60 years) - frightening.
Well I will say it again, the only way to defeat this type of terrorism that affects us directly is to deal with it at source, in London, Manchester, Bradford or wherever else they hide, the home grown terrorist is the biggest threat, we have people here associated with terrorism walking the streets certain mosques have been identified as hotbeds of activity and schools yet we pussyfoot around trying not to upset anyone, we cant have security with one hand tied behind our backs, the smirking swaggering thugs we have seen here that hide behind the law make me sick, if the French can change the rules to take away their citizenships and deport them then so can we, if we jail them they get stronger in prison and infect others through intimidation, some join them to get better facilities.
Syria will be desolate at some point, already written in the great book, but it doesn't end there either. Simply had to inform you, as you once said there is no point in people coming out with stuff after the event. Well, just for the record this is prior to THE event.
Japan might have had 223 years of peace, but when the little f....s did come out to play, they weren't even human.
Maybe China hasn't had any foreign wars in the last 36 years because no one would want to pick a fight with them. After all they have nuclear defence !
The remainder of your points I can't answer as I haven't researched them as you have, but I could be back.
@Casper ..and we should be changing the rules now. Big time.
It would appear that most of the media don't understand what a shoot to kill policy is.
Hilary Benns statement is not a shoot to kill policy, that is normal legal policy for police and civilians alike (noting the word reasonable, not compulsory)
"Hilary Benn said it was “perfectly reasonable” to kill a terrorist where there is “an immediate threat to life”.
There is a conjoiner missing from the sentence: "where the terrorist is causing an immediate threat to life" but I'm sure that was the intent of the statement because otherwise the implications are absurd.
A shoot to kill policy allows executions based on assumptions whether there is adequate supporting evidence or not. Eg, everybody in the building is a terrorist, shoot them all, without knowing exactly who is in the building. This type of scenario has happened even without a shoot to kill policy in place as in some of the examples I gave above.
Some quotes from Steve Killelea (unfortunate name?), the President of the Institute of Economics and Peace.
many of the countries suffering the most terrorism have also suffered from foreign military intervention.
Although the ‘responsibility to protect’ is paramount, caution needs to be taken against unwanted consequences.
I urge policymakers to use the findings of this report to help redefine tackling terrorism strategies and help shift focus towards peace
It was written before the Paris attacks.
Sorry DD I hadnt noticed your 4.17pm post so deleted my last one to which you have just responde as it was nothing to do with the 4.17 one. I was going to follow on later to say how unrealistic I think they are. Obviously it was written before French do, which is the point.
The remainder of your points I can't answer as I haven't researched them as you have, but I could be back.
Suitable.
I wonder what this thread appears like to our Muslim Friends? Our mixed race friends on here. #shame
I know for a fact that that there are people on here who are #non-christian #non-white.
So what! - (these people are not considered) In my opinion.
Horrid, you lot at times!!!
Even if we eradicate every living thing in Syria, ants and all - it still wouldn't end, there would be a plethora of independent networks and how are you going to negotiate then?
The longest period of peace in British history is only 14 years long (1922 - 1936), we are a bloomin' aggressive nation military wise.
Japan an island nation had an impressive 223 years of peace.
New Zealand, another island nation achieved 63 years.
I see Cameron is strengthening our air defences, he's suddenly realised how vulnerable we are. Relying purely on intelligence to defend our homeland while wasting our military funds on offshore forays could well be our eventual downfall.
We try to fight way above our weight militarily, diplomatically and economically and its only a matter of time before the rest of the world get fed up with our antics. We are merely a country, we are no longer an empire. Look at all the other countries that were empires, they have backed down, we haven't got used to the idea yet.
Look at China, a country 40 times bigger than us, a population 22 times greater than us a GDP of 4 times ours, yet they only have the same number amount of nuclear warheads as us, they haven't been involved in any foreign battles in the last 36 years.
We have hardly stopped fighting during the same 36 years:- Oman, Dhofar, Falklands, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sierra Leone, Kuwait, Libya and possibly a few more bits and pieces.
We have had military conflicts with or in about 16 other nations in my lifetime (less than 60 years) - frightening.
What about Adwan Rebellion of 1923, Ikhwan Revolt of 1927-1930
I agree, we could bomb them for a hundred years and be no further ahead. It may have been said on here before but I will repeat,
The only way to defeat them is to stop their funding, mainly
from the Saudi's. Yet ironically Canada for one sells ammunition
to the Saudi's. As a side point it was pointed out on a CBC program
that ISIS lost 20000 last year but had 300000 recruits.
I wonder what this thread appears like to our Muslim Friends? Our mixed race friends on here. #shame
I know for a fact that that there are people on here who are #non-christian #non-white.
So what! - (these people are not considered) In my opinion.
Horrid, you lot at times!!!
Wwe do not want to hurt anyones feeings on here, but they are as free as any one of us to decry Muslim terrorist behaviour , and they should if they are against it. Thats what the country needs , masses of 'proper' Muslims joining in as to how to best rid us of those who kill and maim in the name of their god .
I agree, we could bomb them for a hundred years and be no further ahead. It may have been said on here before but I will repeat,
The only way to defeat them is to stop their funding, mainly
from the Saudi's. Yet ironically Canada for one sells ammunition
to the Saudi's. As a side point it was pointed out on a CBC program
that ISIS lost 20000 last year but had 300000 recruits.
One to many o's. Should have read 30000
I wonder what this thread appears like to our Muslim Friends? Our mixed race friends on here. #shame
I know for a fact that that there are people on here who are #non-christian #non-white.
So what! - (these people are not considered) In my opinion.
Horrid, you lot at times!!!
Wwe do not want to hurt anyones feeings on here, but they are as free as any one of us to decry Muslim terrorist behaviour , and they should if they are against it. Thats what the country needs , masses of 'proper' Muslims joining in as to how to best rid us of those who kill and maim in the name of their god .
That's like asking a Catholic or Protestant to stand up and apologise for Christianity being practised in the name of KKK types!!!
I wonder what this thread appears like to our Muslim Friends? Our mixed race friends on here. #shame
I know for a fact that that there are people on here who are #non-christian #non-white.
So what! - (these people are not considered) In my opinion.
Horrid, you lot at times!!!
Wwe do not want to hurt anyones feeings on here, but they are as free as any one of us to decry Muslim terrorist behaviour , and they should if they are against it. Thats what the country needs , masses of 'proper' Muslims joining in as to how to best rid us of those who kill and maim in the name of their god .
That's like asking a Catholic or Protestant to stand up and apologise for Christianity being practised in the name of KKK types!!!
Not sure exactly that Ive understood you, but if you mean that for instance if I was a dedicated pure Chrisian (Im agnostic) I might not stand up and speak out against barbaric behaviour by extremist Christians to my countrymen , then you're wrong. I believe most people I know, would .
On the subject of new lawsetc following attacks
Newish film out. The Daniel Connection
THE DANIEL CONNECTION
A Chilling Apocalyptic Thriller Based on a Factual Documentary
As the world becomes embroiled in financial instability, increased natural and man made disasters and escalating terrorist attacks,
frightened citizens look to governments… a world leader… to keep them safe.
In a bid to “keep People Safe”, politicians sanction the formation of a new counter terrorist unit called the “Federal Protection Force” (FPF).
As the root cause of increased terrorism is deemed to be religion, the heads of major faiths come together and agree that ALL paths can lead to God,
and await a leader to lead the world under the simple global banner of ‘Love Good and Love your neighbour’.
When people start to go missing - coupled with increased sightings of UFOs around the world, detective Brian Farrow turns his attention to the
feisty young radio presenter Dani Makovitch as she begins to question the true purpose and origins of the
Federal Protection Force. Ancient documents hold the key as she quickly comes to realise the one burning question that needs
to be answered… can the FPF be stopped or is it already too late?
http://thedanielconnection.tv/trailer.htm
.....
The longest period of peace in British history is only 14 years long (1922 - 1936), we are a bloomin' aggressive nation military wise.......
What about Adwan Rebellion of 1923, Ikhwan Revolt of 1927-1930
Bloomin' heck, you know your history. Initially I was going to reply that I'd discount them as civil disturbances on our own land (military-wise). However it isn't that simple for Ikwhan and you may well be right. One question would have to be whether the actions were on behalf of the British Government or were our forces on loan to a foreign realm and not directly under our control - I'm not sure?
I agree, we could bomb them for a hundred years and be no further ahead. It may have been said on here before but I will repeat,
The only way to defeat them is to stop their funding, mainly
from the Saudi's. Yet ironically Canada for one sells ammunition
to the Saudi's. As a side point it was pointed out on a CBC program
that ISIS lost 20000 last year but had 300000 recruits.
It did seem a lot, Snowshoes.
Kuwait and Qatar were also funding them. Don't know if that still applies. At the same time the Saudi King has offered to pay for 200 new mosques to be built in Germany! I understand he has been (politely) told; No Thanks !
Although they have received money from Saudi, Quatar and Kuwait in the past, mostly to oppose Assad, this has nearly dried up, most of ISIS' income now comes from oil sales, kidnap ransoms, smuggling, extortion, taxes, looting and bank robberies.
Turkey have promised to stop the oil travelling through their borders but how effective this will be is questionable, the drops in oil price have helped cause ISIS a bit of financial trouble.
Protection money for muslim businesses is quite cheap at around £2 a month, however non-muslim families have to huge amounts more than this. ISIS have put their taxes up in the last few months due to their financial squeeze.
The less money ISIS get, the more they will squeeze the innocent Syrian civilians. At some point there is a possibility that they will invade yet another bordering country, the wider spread they are, the more difficult it is to attack them and they will have fresh resources to steal to continue funding their activities.
Well, Daves new plan to defeat ISIL is a world beater, the RAF will bomb Raqqa and this will cut the head off the snake, the man is a genius, why has nobody else thought of this? oh what they have! oh well it was a good idea, the mind boggles if this is his answer, the rats have well left their funk holes and are well out of harms way, so Dave is this just an excuse to get us involved again?
Well, Daves new plan to defeat ISIL is a world beater, the RAF will bomb Raqqa and this will cut the head off the snake, the man is a genius, why has nobody else thought of this? oh what they have! oh well it was a good idea, the mind boggles if this is his answer, the rats have well left their funk holes and are well out of harms way, so Dave is this just an excuse to get us involved again?
I dont think I understand the full reasons why he does though? Look big to the Americans? Pressure from some of his party? -- Political gain we arent aware of ? What is overiding reason?
Its a Dave thing, he likes to think he is an important world leader and wants to play with the big kids, its an ill thought out policy, both the Russians and the French are acting in a knee jerk manner they are smarting from the vicious attacks on their peoples and are hitting back out of sheer frustration, and to be seen to be doing something, bombing is a hit and miss affair and has its limitations, you can take out buildings and weapons sites etc with pinpoint accuracy but concentrations of men are mobile, you cant hit what you cant see, the Americans learnt this in Vietnam, perhaps Dave thinks they will be sitting around the table in Raqqa playing cards in the ISIL social club waiting to meet Allah
The ISIS Main HQ was labelled on the map when the bombed Jihadi John - propaganda!
Thing is its not just IS getting bombed but innocent people as well. Just an aside...state execution by beheading was one of our pasttimes ...they are just copying us albeit sevarl hundred years later. Perhaps jihadi john could have been called old henry
The buggers are everywhere too.
Honduras arrests five US-bound Syrians with stolen passports
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-34864193
Article is about refugees not terrorists.
But Granny--the buggers are in Marseille albeit wannabe terrorists
A teacher at a Jewish school in the southern French city of Marseille has been stabbed by three people who shouted anti-Semitic insults at him.
One of them was wearing an Islamic State (IS) T-shirt, Marseilles prosecutor Brice Robin told Reuters.
Police said the teacher's life was not in danger. A hunt is under way for the attackers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34864509
But Granny--the buggers are in Marseille albeit wannabe terrorists
A teacher at a Jewish school in the southern French city of Marseille has been stabbed by three people who shouted anti-Semitic insults at him.
One of them was wearing an Islamic State (IS) T-shirt, Marseilles prosecutor Brice Robin told Reuters.
Police said the teacher's life was not in danger. A hunt is under way for the attackers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34864509 They should get a really hefty punishment, before more join them . France is like an explosion waiting to happen, IMO.
The previous post of mine, sorry a mistake, but why did they steal passports ?
Looks like US are going to pull the plug on the 10,000 Syrians they said they would take.
Listening to the various experts on terrorism that have appeared lately, in their opinion on home grown terrorists they say that they feel that they don't belong in the communities in which they live, disenfranchised, is this an excuse or a reason? I understand people are tribal, they tend to stick to their own, most people who originated or who are from other countries live in like communities that have been shaped and built up over the years, so basically they are surrounded by their old culture and way of life, those that have been born and bred here have been educated to the life, customs and the law of this country, one might suggest the best of both worlds, but then they decide they are not happy between two cultures so they pick their old culture and way of life which is not fully compatible with the country they live in, so now they have a choice to make, move to their homeland or stay and change the culture where they live, but because they are Westernised the homeland option doesn't sound too attractive they decide to impose what they want on their adopted country, so this then puts them at odds and makes them feel the are being unfairly treated because they cant have what they want, but that's just the way I view it.
Morning Casper. Does anyone remember the United Nations Day for the Elimination of Racism? The millions of dollars spent world wide on promoting harmony, cultural diversity, citizenship, from here to Australia, to South Africa but I don't think it really included those who were supposedly being subjected to racial discrimination. The Caucasians races were those who promoted, responded and were ultimately educated from these initiatives, but have been failed by the same United Nations that forgot to include those who were most at risk, in the same scheme.
One begins to wonder if they already had an agenda which is now coming into fruition.
...and according to this, which is the most recent I can find, they would now appear to be more concerned about their Cultural Heritage.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51994#.Vk2tG_9Odjo
Granny,i have had to go to many countries during my work/life and i can assure you that the majority of those countries i would not revisit on a voluntary basis,however when i was in those countries i bided by their laws/rules so why cannot people coming into our country abide by ours?
Listening to the various experts on terrorism that have appeared lately, in their opinion on home grown terrorists they say that they feel that they don't belong in the communities in which they live,
Hmmm, is this what's going to happen when Wirral becomes part of Liverpool? (cf. another thread).
Nice one buddy
"What can we do to lessen the grip of fear from terrorism"
Click--- the ostrich principle--but quite effective
Another way would be to look at it statistically--which is fine at the moment.
At present IS don't have planes or warships
Most people being killed by "terrorists" or "friendly terrorists" are Muslims
Watch BB or similar programmes that result in brain numbing.
Bottle of Jack Daniels or the like.
Your own Kalashnikov under the bed.
Granny,i have had to go to many countries during my work/life and i can assure you that the majority of those countries i would not revisit on a voluntary basis,however when i was in those countries i bided by their laws/rules so why cannot people coming into our country abide by ours?
Hagar, I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Overall, I think most people from different cultures do abide by our laws in this country, but integration for certain sectors of the community is not so easy.
We have attended our 'courses' and understand the ethics of cultural diversity, harmony and anti-racism. The certain communities to which I refer and Casper refers to, have not been encouraged or included to integrate by these same schemes, and it would appear that they are very much encouraged against it, when looking at the link below.
That can't be right in this society and the responsibility must lie with those who guide them,.. which isn't happening.
We, as a country seem to blend well with most and I try to understand what the problem is with one particular group.
Personally, I still think one major fault of ours is to class everyone from the middle east or Africa as Muslim. That is so wrong.There are different sects of Muslim and I would much prefer reference by their nationality, because different nationalities have different cultures. Syrians different to Egyptians, Libyans different to Turkish etc.
In that way, we could open our eyes a bit and realise that most are people with a loving heart, but that one word 'Muslim' builds on a message of hate... why ?
These ISIS as we know, are murderers and not of human spirit and the influx of asylum seekers has put fear into many which is natural. It would appear that they are not the problem so far, other than possible shortage of resources and the changes which will no doubt have to be overcome.
The link below, lists numerous reasons why a Muslim women should not work. It is not encouraging.
Like it or not, we are in a multicultural society and barriers have to be crossed.
How many of us understand Islam ? How many of us understand Buddhist, Hindu or even Christianity ? We more or less understand how to relate to e.g Indians, Malaysians, Chinese, Burmese, and get on with them. Most of the fears and hate seem to stem from ignorance on both sides of the fence.
That is why I say the Muslim religious leaders are not doing enough to help integration.
Of course, the question then arises ; do most Westerners want them to integrate or not ?
Can't Copy link atm for some reason.
Heading is:
Employment concerns for working Muslim women – I: Islamic guidelines
This one gran?
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/139358/employment-concerns-for-working-muslim-women-%EF%BF%BD%EF%BF%BD-i-islamic-guidelines
Yes, that's the one Snowshoes. Thanks
Hi granny, exactly my sentiment, looking at Paris on the news there appears to be a lot of Muslims out with placards decrying the attacks not in our name, it is heartening to see, the sad part is not much reaction or representation from the communities here, we have seen an odd spokesman on tv but that's all, I personally think to see such support would help in bringing communities closer together all united against terrorism, maybe its just me but I sense a great reluctance here to condemn other Muslims, they have no problems demonstrating for their rights nor about attacking our armed forces for involvement in Afghanistan, but perhaps I have been biased by media reporting, I did notice one Muslim girl say that she was proud to be a French Muslim whilst hold up a placard condemning the bombings as I said nice to see her support for her country.
Just read a post on facebook. There was a full page statement in The Telegraph today.
Ordinary Muslims have been expressing outrage but the media choose not to report it, apparently hence the decision to pay for full page advertising
Just read an article about 2 muslims attacking a man with baseball bats because he had converted from Islam to Christianity. Think it was Bradford.
Just read an article about 2 muslims attacking a man with baseball bats because he had converted from Islam to Christianity. Think it was Bradford.
Baseball bats don't tickle like feathers. That to my mind should be classed as attempted murder, apart from anti- Christian, and the punishment should be the same had it been the other way around.
One country, same rules. Then everyone knows what to expect.
Hello granny, yes it will be interesting to find out whether justice will prevail, I suspect that the Christian might be charged for offending Allah and that the assailants given a conditional discharge, so as not to upset anyone, or am I just being cynical?
Just thought on about this ,does anybody remember a judge giving an Asian child molester a longer sentence because his victim was Asian and more likely to suffer in the community? so it does appear that we do have variations in the law depending on different cultures, the same parallel we have between rich and poor when it comes to justice, should all justice not be the same as regards status or culture and religion? if we look at this instance then we are not all the same in the eyes of the law, this being the case you can understand it when people believe that other cultures are advantaged by their status and religion.
Just thought on about this ,does anybody remember a judge giving an Asian child molester a longer sentence because his victim was Asian and more likely to suffer in the community
Yes, what's more the sentence was appealed and the appeal court agreed!
Its a difficult call, some agree the impact on the victim should be taken into account. My general opinion is that the crime itself should be looked at for criminal sentencing, not the outcome - the outcome is a civil matter not criminal.
Your opinion is at variance with the law: quote from the CPS.
"The court must pass what it judges to be the appropriate sentence having regard to the circumstances of the offence and of the offender, taking into account, so far as the court considers it appropriate, the impact on the victim."
I feel sorry when someone makes a mistake that millions of others do but circumstances produce an outcome that means they are penalised for something that is a commonplace event.
Cars sliding on ice is an example, some winters you see cars sliding everywhere (some extremely carelessly or even purposely) and rarely anyone gets charged unless someone is seriously injured (even in the event of a crash), but some unlucky sods get the book thrown at them because of the outcome, then they end up with a civil case against them as well. There is no significant measure as to how bad/accidental/unforeseeable the skid was, or how careful the driver was, its mainly the outcome that matters.
I remember a case about a small child that overdosed on a common painkiller, the mother was charged and dealt with quite heavy handedly. The child had climbed on a stool to get to the tablets and the tablets were probably more secure than in the majority of other homes (how many people keep poisonous substances under the kitchen sink). Millions of homes take the same or worse (illegal) risk, the mother and child were unlucky, the sentencing didn't see it that way.
A perverse example was when I had someone do a hit and run on my car, because nobody was injured and despite damage to my car no charge was brought. The outcome fully mitigated the crime????
I would like to see the actual crime and the outcome separated from sentencing.
I fully understand the part about the impact on the victim, however, does such a vile crime impact more on the victim if he/she is Asian? as to the reaction of the community to the victim, does this not highlight a problem within that community were they stigmatise a child for being a victim? and should not that community be judged on its response toward that child, and not on the paedophile who should be sentenced on his actions and the severity of the offences, not on the reaction of the community, after all what kind of society condones or participates in such behaviour toward an innocent child, I would suggest one that has no shred of human decency, and whilst they continue with that vein of backward thinking will never fully intergrate with a fair and just society.
These ISIS members who they are rounding up all over the place, should be kept in pits and if necessary starved to death. The world doesn't need to know what happens to them.
This group of hackers calling themselves 'Anonymous' have put out a world wide warning for tomorrow.
This group of hackers calling themselves 'Anonymous' have put out a world wide warning for tomorrow.
Now they say they had nothing to do with putting out that alert and they don't know which other group of cranks it may have been !
These people need taking down as well.
I (half) heard an item on the BBC World Service in the wee small hours this morning that "Anonymous" are going all out to disrupt the ideological crap spewed out by ISIS. IF that is true, maybe they can't be all that bad !
I (half) heard an item on the BBC World Service in the wee small hours this morning that "Anonymous" are going all out to disrupt the ideological crap spewed out by ISIS. IF that is true, maybe they can't be all that bad !
Bunch of anarchists ! If you read up on them, they seem to get involved in far too much and has been said that they are getting in the way of surveillance and other things now. That of course is just one review. Don't really know but it would seem they were involved in the Arab Spring and various Governments security and the US National Security Agency considered Anonymous a potential national security threat.
Looking worse by the minute . Dozen and a half Bio hazzard suits stolen in France yesterday, and today they are suspecting the water supply may have been contaminated and are doing samples every(France that is) Reckon bottled water shops will be doing a roaring trade from tonight, just in case.
I (half) heard an item on the BBC World Service in the wee small hours this morning that "Anonymous" are going all out to disrupt the ideological crap spewed out by ISIS. IF that is true, maybe they can't be all that bad !
Bunch of anarchists ! If you read up on them, they seem to get involved in far too much and has been said that they are getting in the way of surveillance and other things now. That of course is just one review. Don't really know but it would seem they were involved in the Arab Spring and various Governments security and the US National Security Agency considered Anonymous a potential national security threat.
Every group or individual who opposes their Government rhetoric is considered a Security Threat!!
I (half) heard an item on the BBC World Service in the wee small hours this morning that "Anonymous" are going all out to disrupt the ideological crap spewed out by ISIS. IF that is true, maybe they can't be all that bad !
Bunch of anarchists ! If you read up on them, they seem to get involved in far too much and has been said that they are getting in the way of surveillance and other things now. That of course is just one review. Don't really know but it would seem they were involved in the Arab Spring and various Governments security and the US National Security Agency considered Anonymous a potential national security threat.
Every group or individual who opposes their Government rhetoric is considered a Security Threat!!
Not simply opposing one Government is it ? Cyberattacks, in countries including the US, UK, Australia, the Netherlands, Spain, and Turkey. Known as digital Robin Hoods and it is suggested they have interfered with surveillance on the ISIS terrorist attacks (which is what the National Security threat is commenting about).They have also cause disruption to Paypal, Visa and Barclaycard, and threatened to bring down Amazon, so I can't see that they can be excused in any way.
Anonymous do not have a command and control structure, generally ideas are put forward by individuals and if anyone wants to act on them they do, there are no official compulsions, obligations or consensus, though needless to say there is a lot of heated discussion at times.
Do you mean a bit like the hijack of the bank in Liverpool, not so long ago ?
I don't fully understand it, but if anyone can join they don't have to use their own identity and the chance of bringing down a Government, or for example any other industry , that is surely classed as anarchy and the bigger it gets the more harm it can do.
Not sure, but it sounds a dangerous outfit.Also, as happened the other day the warning that was given out about a world wide attack by ISIS in the Anonynous name, then retracted saying they didn't know how that happened, there are loop holes too . Serious loopholes !
It could be dangerous, but the individuals could be more dangerous if they didn't operate together. The mitigation being that as a group they tend to target moralistic causes albeit they are acting as judge and jury and outside the law - its better that they have some focus than randomly attack and destroy just for the sake of it.
And before anyone puts words in my mouth - I have not defended them.
Looks like London will be in for a terrorist attack next.
Looks like London will be in for a terrorist attack next.
London is likely to be much more security ready than any of our other major cities which if attacked give ISIS just as much publicity
Although there would be big kudos for ISIL for an attack on London, it would be more difficult as you say because of the tighter security, more likely be in the neglected Northlands.
I found this article resonate.
In the aftermath of the dreadful attacks on Paris last week, another atrocity has found its way into our lives. It's been embedded into western society for years, and I fear the barbaric attacks that killed 129 innocent lives are only going to make matters worse.
I'm talking about Islamophobia.
Many claim that Islamophobia doesn't exist. Try telling that to the Muslim girl hounded with racist abuse on a London train, the hijab-wearing Muslim woman brutally attacked on a busy street, or the Muslim population in France who are changing their behaviour - avoiding going out after 6pm - in case they're attacked.
A recent report by the Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) found that two-thirds of the Muslim population in Britain admitted they had been subject to verbal abuse, and 82 percent said they had witnessed Islamophobia. Reported cases of physical assault have risen by four percent over the last five years.
Just a few days ago, an 81 year old man pushed a hijab-wearing Muslim woman into an oncoming train on the London underground. Thankfully she survived - suffering minor injuries - though her shock and fear will continue to live on.
A quick scroll through my Facebook feed following the attacks in Paris showed the abhorrent ignorance and racism that lies within many whom I considered friends - they have all been privately messaged and subsequently removed, though I will be sending this post to them.
"It's time for us to take matters into our own hands. If we don't want Paris to happen to us then we must go into every mosque in the country and close it down. It's time to stamp out Islam as a religion" read one post on my Facebook timeline just an hour after the attack.
Sadly this wasn't a single occurrence, I saw more posts condemning the entire Muslim population than I did posts showing solidarity with the victims and their families.
Another ignorant, though less extreme post read: "The scenes in Paris are heartbreaking. Every Muslim leader needs to come out and condemn this attack."
Muslim leaders have in fact been coming out to condemn the attack, examples can be seen here, here, and here.
The problem is that they shouldn't have to. If they want to, then that is their prerogative and it's admirable that they do. However, by asking someone to apologise you're implying that it's they who are to blame. Muslims are NOT to blame, they themselves are also being targeted and killed.
A few days before the Paris atrocities, ISIS co-ordinated a suicide attack in Beirut, killing 43 people in the process - the majority of the dead being Sunni Muslims. Just days before that, ISIS extremists lined up and shot dead at least 50 men, women and children in Iraq.
ISIS are responsible for more Muslim deaths than western victims. Yet instead of coming together against the mutual enemy, masses of people are targeting a specific group in society, a group who are also being slaughtered by the hands of this terrorist organisation. Demonising an entire religion based on the actions of a few extremists is not only wrong, but twisted and dangerous. It causes tension, divides communities, and leads onto horrendous crimes. The perpetrator's ignorance and prejudice in labelling an entire religion as such is what the country should be worrying about.
Do the actions of the Westboro Baptists speak for the entire Christian population? the Ku Klux Klan? Catholic peadophile priests? No. Of course not, the suggestion of it would dismissed almost instantaneously.
When Anders Breivik killed 77 people in the 2011 Norway attacks, no one expected Christians to come out and condemn him, no one called into question the intention of the entire Christian population. Instead, he was hailed up as a mentally troubled lone wolf.
Despite this, masses of people seem to find it logical that all Muslims are in fact Kalashnikov wielding, Islamic State terrorists. There is no rational argument to support this.
There are 1.57 billion Muslims in the world - ISIS is made up from less than 1% of this figure - but yes, all Muslims are terrorists right? It's common sense...
We should be coming together to show solidarity for France and the families of the victims and survivors - not using the attack to aid a personal agenda of hatred and to incite violence.
The murder of 129 innocent civilians in Paris last week, the attack on the World Trade Center in 2001, and the London bombings of 2005 were not carried out by Muslims. They were carried out by jihadists. They're terrorists; Islamist fundamentalists who have manipulated the writings of a religion to suit their own perverted narrative, ideology, and collective gain.
Another result of the attacks in Paris has been a resurgence of hatred towards the refugees fleeing Syria. One of the terrorists was reported to have been a Syrian refugee which further sent the hyperbole regarding accepting refugees into meltdown.
'Shut our borders', 'place armed police on the streets', 'put the country on lockdown' are examples of just a few of the comments making the rounds on social media.
Yes we need to fight ISIS, we need to neutralise them - save the thousands of innocent lives who are being killed in the masses. However, we don't do that by turning our own societies into the oppressive regimes which we have historically fought so hard against. We do not turn our back on those in need.
As has been previously covered, the events that shook Paris last week are happening every single day in ISIS controlled territory. The refugees aren't fleeing because they want to "steal your benefits" or "take over your country". They're fleeing because their homes are being destroyed and their families lined up and shot in front of them.
Despite the attack - and the subsequent pressure not to - France is still accepting 30,000 Syrian refugees. They are not conforming to the aims of a terrorist organisation, they're defying it.
If we continue with this process of separation and violence then we will only get more of the same. ISIS heavily relies on propaganda, and by creating hatred towards Muslims in the western world, they're playing a clever strategy. Their aim is for us to be scared, they want our society to be persecuting the Muslim population - their hope is that they will gain more recruits.
If you're one of the people fear-mongering, spreading hatred, or inciting violence then congratulations, you're not fighting ISIS, you're aiding and abetting them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lewis-parker/all-muslims-are-terrorist_b_8602478.html
Rude you say they shouldn't have to comment, why? every other community from different parts of the world have spoken out, to coin a phrase "their silence is deafening"
The silence IS deafening, Casper. Probably because their mission is to educate the world, and political Islam is taken from the Quran.
Their one goal is to unite the world in one faith. So it is understandable when people feel discouraged about having their countries swamped with a totally different culture, political views and faith all rolled into one.
Of course, in the article quoted above is a twisted observation and their is no mention of countless Christians slaughtered by various groups of Islam in just as many different countries . There is a very strange conclusion that all refugees are Muslim. How ridiculous ! A huge proportion are Christian who have been chased out of their homeland.
I am sick of these people who bat on about one particular fraction of what goes on because they prefer to close their eyes to what is really happening world wide. My sympathy goes out to Muslim in many ways, the same as it does to any group of people who are persecuted, but I can also fully understand the worries and concerns that others, including Government might have.
The bits of propaganda being spewed out in the name of inverted racists. 'How bloody marvellous am I, I support the Muslims, no one can say I'm a racist'. Well they are inverted racists, they are inverted racist to their own people, they are inverted racists to their neighbours ,they are inverted racists to the very basis of Christian cultures, which Europe is based upon, and they are inverted racists to the Syrian/Iraqi and African Christians who have already fled from their Muslim brothers. Add to that a load of extreme propaganda that is being bilged out.
Have a look at these figures and the perpetrators are not only ISIS. This is the way they operate and this is they way they get the end result, but recruiting under extreme conditions. Once in, never out so to speak. No wonder people are worried.
The Religion of Peace!
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/christianattacks.htm
I watched a program on ch4 last night, women Isis supporters in Britain, it gave an insight into what's going on in our country, the ch4 undercover girl attended a meeting held by known extremists who were openly spouting their bile all this with the police standing in the background, throughout the program up to three women on the internet were inciting the undercover girl to go to Syria to fight the kuffir, I cant believe that this is allowed to go on, no wonder we have become a laughing stock, further to rudes post I recall him praising the opposition to the fascists arriving in Liverpool to spread their hate, quite right to, so why wouldn't he expect Muslims to turn out to oppose or at least voice their opposition to the Muslim bigots spreading hate and infecting their communities? and what would happen if the police intervened? the probability is that the whole community would turn on them.
Even Sweden, one of the most tolerant countries in the Western World, is now baulking at the potential "takeover" of their country.
The stability of all countries is being challenged (and being manipulated by more than one country), doing more actions that increase instability will be a heavy cost in the long term.
The end result everybody wants is stability, everything we do now should be targeting stability.
I watched a program on ch4 last night, women Isis supporters in Britain, it gave an insight into what's going on in our country, the ch4 undercover girl attended a meeting held by known extremists who were openly spouting their bile all this with the police standing in the background, throughout the program up to three women on the internet were inciting the undercover girl to go to Syria to fight the kuffir, I cant believe that this is allowed to go on, no wonder we have become a laughing stock, further to rudes post I recall him praising the opposition to the fascists arriving in Liverpool to spread their hate, quite right to, so why wouldn't he expect Muslims to turn out to oppose or at least voice their opposition to the Muslim bigots spreading hate and infecting their communities? and what would happen if the police intervened? the probability is that the whole community would turn on them.
I missed half of that program.It was quite an eye opener wasn t it.
Quote "Their aim is for us to be scared,"
Although I agree its wrong and a really bad idea to encourage Islamophobia , we would be a damn side more scared if we DIDNT have armed police on the streets, DIDNT have stringent border checks (possibly biased against anyone with voluminous clothing , DIDNT have access to know what is going on in mosques or schools (look how when left without scrutiny, we suddenly find kids are being radicalized in some Muslim schools, and last night on TV we saw how effectively Muslim private/secret mum and baby groups were being used to radicalize women and children) and yes we are a lot more scared when we DONT hear ordinary 'proper ' Muslims speaking out against jihadi atrocities.
Im not aware of people asking influencial Muslims for apologies for the behaviour of Jihadis , they were only asking them for support and reassurance that 'real' Muslims felt the same as we do about the violence, and it wasnt initially forthcoming , which obviously worries people as it wasnt a lot to ask. The pope did actually apologize for paedophile priests , although personally I think he only needed to reassure people that the majority were not like that, and that yes he and all good Catholics condemned it.
As for
Quote "Yes we need to fight ISIS, we need to neutralise them - save the thousands of innocent lives who are being killed in the masses. However, we don't do that by turning our own societies into the oppressive regimes which we have historically fought so hard against"
Well when you're fighting something as dangerous as ISIS that you know has infiltrated your country ,and you dont know who they are, then until you have freed your country from the risk, then yes you may well temporarily have to accept some oppressive rules and regulations whether fair or not !
Imagine if people in WW2 had said they werent going to give up freedom of movement,show passes, and werent going to submit to blocking light out of their windows, and werent going to eye with suspicion , people whom through clothing , accent or manner might be a spy .
People who think you can overcome a situation like this without infringing some human rights, without being un-pc sometimes, and without being unfair in some instances, arent being realistic in my view.
I agree we wouldnt be in this mess if we and America hadnt meddled in these countries in the first place ,(and I dont want Cameron getting us in deeper now by piling troops into Syria) but we are where we are, we cant say like the taxi driver giving directions to a stranger " I wouldnt start from here if I was you"
You talk a lot of sense, Venice.
First apologies to rudebox the picture misled me sorry rudebox, thanks for putting me right bandicoot, secondly a good post well put from Venice, a good comparison re WW2 indeed civil liberties were curtailed for the good of the country when we were really all in it together, because the Luftwaffe was indiscriminate with its bombing, men women children anything that moved, the same as the Isis vermin now, indiscriminate regardless of gender, religion, colour or creed that's why we must ALL condemn their actions.
First apologies to rudebox the picture misled me sorry rudebox,
No worries Casper
Rude you say they shouldn't have to comment, why? every other community from different parts of the world have spoken out, to coin a phrase "their silence is deafening"
Zakia Rashid
18 November at 09:15 · Edited ·
In response to the multitude comments made about Muslims over the past week. So many people ask "why don't the Muslims in this country speak out if they're against it?" We have tried and tried with rally's, protests press releases aplenty. Why have you not seen it? The media feel it's not as press worthy as terror and stokes no fires!
Today the Muslim Council of Great Britain took out a full page ad in the Telegraph.
We can shout loud but the ears of Britain need to be open to hear. Can you hear me?
I would be grateful if you would share and spread this message. Thank you.
‪#‎NotInMyName‬
Statement of Solidarity dated 14th November 2015
A Statement of Solidarity from British Muslim communities
14 November 2015
We are profoundly saddened by the loss of innocent lives in Paris, and our deepest condolences are with the family and friends of the victims, and the French nation.
Britons of all backgrounds, of every faith, every denomination, and none, are horrified by what we have learned, and are determined that those who seek to divide our diverse and peaceful communities in Europe will not succeed.
There is no justification for murder, and all British faith communities agree that those who commit acts of violence cannot do so in the name of any faith. Any such claim is illegitimate.
British Muslim communities are equally appalled by the violence, and angered by those who commit abhorrent acts in the name of religion. The perpetrators do not represent us; their views are perverse and self-serving.
We urge all communities in Britain and France to stand firm with compassion and solidarity. We must not let these terrorists divide us, otherwise the terrorists will win. Let us not play into their divisive narrative, and instead show them that people of all faiths and none can live peacefully, together.
Like the terrorists who want to divide communities, there will be some in the days ahead who will try to use this atrocity to attack innocent people. We equally reject their intentions.
It is evil people who do evil things; such acts will only increase our resolve to remain united.
Signed:
-Aamer Anwar, Human Rights Lawyer, Scotland
-Aamer Naeem, Editor in Chief, British Muslim TV
-Abdul Buhari, 2012 GB Olympic Athlete
-Adam Deen, Quilliam Foundation
-Adbul-Azim Ahmed, Muslim Council of Wales
-Adeem Younis, Director, Penny Appeal, & Founder, singlemuslim.com
-Adil Mohammed Javed (British Muslim Actor), CEO & Artistic Director, Alchemy Arts
-Afzal Khan MEP, Vice-Chair, Security & Defence, Member of European Parliament
-Ahsan Gulabkhan, Association of Muslim Lawyers
-Akeela Ahmed, Equalities Campaigner
-Alnoor Samji
-Arif Zaman
-Asif Sadiq, Chair, Association of Muslim Police
-Ayatullah Sayed Fazel Milani, Al-Khoei Foundation
-Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, Co-Chair, APPG on Islamophobia
-Bharath Ganesh, Tell MAMA UK
-Caroline Lucas MP, Member of Parliament for Brighton Pavilion
-Chaudhary Shafique, Chairman, Council For Christian Muslim Relations, High Wycombe
-Cllr. Hashim Bhatti, Windsor, Executive Member of Conservative Muslim Forum, & Three Faiths Forum Alumni Board
-Cllr. M Aslam Choudry, London Borough of Brent
-Commander Mak Chishty, Metropolitan Police
-Council of Mosques and Muslim Organisations of Newport (COMMON)
-Dawood Masood, Quba Trust
-Dilwar Hussain, Director, New Horizons
-Dr. Abul Kalam, Khatib, Docklands Community Organisation Mosque
-Dr. Akber Mohamedali, President, The Council of European Jamaats
-Dr. Anas Altikriti, CEO, The Cordoba Foundation
-Dr. Asgar Moledina, President, The World Federation of KSIMC
-Dr. Chris Allen, University of Birmingham
-Dr. Hussain Alsaffar, Alderhey Children’s Hospital, Liverpool
-Dr. Imran Awan, Birmingham City University
-Dr. Javed Gill (Convener), Muslim Council of Scotland
-Dr. Masood Yousef, Wales Institute for Muslim Affairs/Sefydliad Materion Mwslemaidd Cymru
-Dr. Mohammad Mozaffari, Co-Founder & Trustee, Leeds Muslim Youth Group
-Dr. Omar Hamdoon, President, Muslim Association of Britain
-Dr. Shuja Shafi, Secretary General, Muslim Council of Britain
-Dr. Waqar Azmi OBE, Chairman, Remembering Srebrenica
-Esmat Jeraj, Hyderi Islamic Centre
-Esmond Rosen, Chair, Barnet Multi-Faith Forum
-Fadel Soliman, Director, Bridges Global
-Fahim Mazhary, Consultant, Al Manaar, Muslim Cultural Heritage Centre
-Farhad Mawani, Vice-President, Ismaili Council for the UK
-Farooq Murad, Director General, The Islamic Foundation, & former Secretary General, Muslim Council of Britain
-Fayyaz Haji, President, Muslim Shia ithnathery Jamaat, Essex
-Fiyaz Mughal OBE, Founder & Director, Faith Matters & Tell MAMA UK
-Hafiz Saeed Makki, Finance Secretary, Jamaat Ahle Sunnat
-Haroon Bhabha, Family Support Worker
-Harris Iqbal, Head of Operations, Khadeejah Welfare Foundation
-Hayyan Ayaz Bhabha, Secretary, APPG on Islamophobia
-Henna Rai, Director of Counter Extremism, Association of British Muslims (AOBM), Kaleidoscope Arts Faith & Culture, & Women Against Radicalisation
-Ifath Nawaz, Vice President, Association of Muslim Lawyers
-Iftikhar Awan, Chair, Independent Members, Cross-Government Working Group on Tackling Anti-Muslim Hatred
-Imam Abdullah Hasan, Imams Against Domestic Abuse (IADA)
-Imam Ajmal Masroor, Broadcaster, Alchemiya
-Imam Ghulam Rasool, Director, Dome and HSBT Sandwell, Tipton
-Imam Hashmi, Sunni ‘Ulema Council
-Imam Irfan Chishti, Manchester Central Mosque
-Imam Tahir Mahmood Kiani, Knowledge Initiative Academy
-Imam Umar Hayat Qadri, Senior Imam, Ghousia Mosque Huddersfield
-Imran & Aina Khan, Head of Islamic Department, Duncan Lewis Solicitors
-Imtiyaz Damiel, Abu Hanifah Foundation
-Iqbal Bhana OBE, DL
-Jagjit Singh Khambe, Sant Nirankari Mission UK
-Jahan Mahmood, Military Historian
-Jalal Fairooz, Secretary General, Bahrain Campaign, & Former Member of Parliament (Bahrain)
-Jawad Fairooz, Salam for Democracy & Human Rights
-Jawad Kadhum Alkhalisi, Muslim Youth Association
-Julie Siddiqi & Laura Marks, Co-Chairs, Nisa-Nashim Jewish and Muslim Women’s Network
-Julie Siddiqi, Founder, Sadaqa Day
-Karim Sacoor, Community Activist & Independent Member, Cross-Government Working Group on Tackling Anti-Muslim Hatred
-Khalid Mahmood MP, Member of Parliament for Birmingham Perry Barr
-Khurshid Ahmed CBE, CEO, Hazrat Sultan Bahu Trust
-Khurshid Drabu CBE, Judge, Upper Tier Tribunal, Immigration & Asylum Chamber, London
-Laura Marks, Founder, Mitzvah Day
-Makhdoom Amjad Shah, TV Anchor, Journalist & CEO, Overseas Pakistan Community
-Matthew Bolton, Deputy Director, Citizens UK
-Maulana Ahmed Nessar Beg, British Muslim Forum
-Maulana Bustan Qadri, Secretary, Sunni Confederation of Mosques
-Mohammad Al-Musawi, World Ahlul Bayt Islamic League (WABIL)
-Mohammad Ehsan Rangiha, Chairman, Islamic Unity Society
-Mohammed Khaled Noor, Muslim Professionals Forum
-Mohammed Kozbar, Finsbury Park Mosque
-Mohammed Mojibul Hoque, Redcar Cleveland Islamic & Cultural Organisation
-Mohammed Shafiq, Chief Executive, Ramadhan Foundation
-Moulana Abdul Wahhab, Markaz ud Da’wah wal Irshad, London
-Moulana Shahid Raza OBE, Head Imam, Leicester Central Mosque, & Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board (MINAB)
-Mubarak Ali, Secretary, Islamic Society of Wales
-Muddassar Ahmed, Patron, Faiths Forum for London
-Muhammad Muneeb Noorani, Imam, South Indian Sunni, Shafi’i Community, London
-Muhammad Mustaqeem Shah, Bradford Imams Forum
-Muhbeen Hussain, Founder & Director, British Muslim Youth
-Mustafa Field MBE, Faiths Forum for London
-Nasar Iqbal, Founder & Operations Director, Innovate Walsall
-Naz Shah MP, Co-Chair, APPG on Islamophobia, & Member of Parliament for Bradford West
-Nick Lowles, Hope Not Hate
-Peter Herbert, Chair, Society of Black Lawyers
-Qari Muhammad Asim, Senior Imam, Makkah Mosque Leeds, & Independent Member, Cross Government Working Group Tackling Anti Muslim Hatred
-Ragih Muflihi, CEO, Inclusive Muslim Action Network
-Raheed Salam, Director, All Faiths and None (AFAN)
-Rameez Kaleem, Chair & Trustee, City Circle
-Rasheeda Begum, Interfaith Activist
-Rashid Brora, Chairman, Medina Mosque, Southampton
-Rasool Bhamani, Baab-Ul-Ilm Centre Leeds
-Rimla Akhtar MBE, Equality Activist
-Rubab Mehdi, Chairwoman, International Imam Hussain Council
-Saleha Islam, Director Al Manaar, Muslim Cultural Heritage Centre
-Salim Janmohamed, Ismaili Council for the UK
-Sarah Ager, Interfaith Activist
-Sayed Ali Abbas Razawi, Director General, Scottish Ahlul Bayt Society
-Sayed Ali Reza Rizvi, Markaz Ahlul Bayt Islamic Centre
-Sayed Qassim Al Jalali, Huda Surrey Islamic Centre
-Sayed Yousif Al-Khoei, Centre for Academic Shia Studies
-Sayyed Zafrullah Shah, Chair, Care and Relief Foundation
-Shaukat Warraich, CEO, Faith Associates, & Chief Editor, Imamsonline.com
-Shaykh Dr. Umar Al-Qadri, Chair, Irish Muslim Peace & Integration Council, & Imam, Islamic Centre Ireland
-Shaykh Haytham Tamim, Chairman, Utrujj Foundation
-Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra, Office of British Imams
-Shaykh Imran Abdali, Chair, Ahle Sunnah wal Suffiya Foundation
-Shaykh Khalil ibn Elyas Laher, Quwwat-ul-Islam, London
-Shaykh M Shabbir Sialvi, Executive Imam, Golden Mosque, Rochdale
-Shaykh Michael Mumisa, University of Cambridge
-Shaykh Muhammad Umar ibn Ramadhan, Chairman, Ramadhan Foundation
-Shaykh Talat, MCEC, Palmers Green Mosque
-Shaz Manir, CEO, Amirah Foundation
-Sheikh Bahri Boja, UK Albanian Muslim Community & Cultural Centre, London
-Sheikh Mohammad Al-Hilli, Noor Trust, London
-Sheikh Nazim, Sufi Centre London UK
-Sheikh Zymer Salihi
-Sir Iqbal Sacrani OBE, Balham Mosque & Tooting Islamic Centre
-Stuart Andrew MP, Chair, APPG on Islamophobia, & Member of Parliament for Pudsey
-Sughra Ahmed, President, Islamic Society of Britain
-Sultan Niaz ul Hasan-Jade, Chair, Hazrat Sultan Bahu Trust UK
-Sunder Katwala, Director, British Future
-Syed Faruq Shah, Chair, Qamar UK Islam
-Tamina Mir, Women Buzz Network
-Ufuk Secgin, Chairman, Hasene Humanitarian Aid UK
-Usama Hasan, Quilliam Foundation
-Waqar Ahmed MBE
-Yasmin Choudhury, Founder, Lovedesh & Amcariza Foundation
-Yasmin Qureshi MP, Member of Parliament for Bolton South East
-Yousef Dar, Chair, Community Safety Forum
-Yunus Dudhwala, Head of Chaplaincy, Barts Health NHS Trust
-Yusuf Rios, Shaukani Institute, USA
-Zafar Khan, Chairman, Luton Council of Faiths
-Zaqir Shaikh, Darul Arqam Educational Trust Leicester, Wayfarers Trust Nottingham, & Imam Masjid al-Mustapha, Leicester
-Zulfikar Hasham, Community Activist
A page full of signatures of people with vested interests doesn't exactly scream out the support of the communities across the country rude, as I posted earlier about the program on ch4 last night those preaching their hate were allowed to carry on with the grace of their community , what message does that send? that they don't care or that they condone or support those radicals or maybe they are scared of them, in which case they should report them to the authorities, whatever the scenario they failed on all counts.
Justice fails when good men stand by and do nothing
Channel 4!!!
Enough said.
Check out
www.mcb.org.uk and read the press releases on there. The recent Conference (October)? in particular.
A page full of signatures of people with vested interests doesn't exactly scream out the support of the communities across the country rude,
I signed against the White Man March (Liverpool, August 2015) in an official capacity- 'officials' cannot just sign willy-nilly without the backing of the organisation that they are representing. Of course, individuals can sign such things in a personal capacity....in which case they would not add an endorsement/ affiliation
Impressive list for up to 24 hours after the atrocities in Paris.
There are 500 affiliated Muslim organisations in this country.
Note, Shuja Shafi. never shows his face.
He says; “We’ve never claimed to speak for everyone,”
One study found only 6% of Muslims felt the MCB represented their views, with younger people especially feeling the organisation was out of touch.
Is he doing anything ?
Has he done anything to tackle discrimination against women in Muslim communities ?
Condemning extremism is fine, but has MCB done anything in recent years to persuade people not to become radicalised ? Don't think so. It's worse now than before.
The MCB is critical of the Governments anti-terror preventative strategy, which apparently alienates Muslims. Or so they say.
I think they are panicking for fear of reprisals , hence the advert in the Telegraph ! A certain section of them, always see themselves as the victims, that's why they blame everyone else for the problems they face.
we're just heading for an another world war
and no-one will take the blame "it wasn't me it was them"
we're just heading for an another world war
and no-one will take the blame "it wasn't me it was them"
Of course. It is all pre-arranged.
Paris Attacks- the Gov't now has the(media manipulated) support to push through the Snoopers Charter
we're just heading for an another world war
and no-one will take the blame "it wasn't me it was them"
Someone has to break the loop, if you are convinced the other side won't then if you want peace you have to do it yourself.
The "allies" expertise lies in turning other country's civil wars in multi-national disasters.
I see Blair is back on a Middle-East peace mission at the same time as having to answer questions over war crimes and also calling for more military action???
The United Nations is doing its best to make sure the world is United???
NATO is operating way outside the North Atlantic area???
You couldn't make it up!
Come on rude, you cant disregard the findings of the program because it was produced by ch4,, there are always comments made about the legitimate source of programs made by all the media and the press I know some are worse than others even the BBC are accused of bias, its up to the individual to cross reference across the media spectrum to assess a true picture, if some of the content of that program doesn't give you cause for concern then you must be blinkered, we are not talking refugees here but people promoting death and violence to everybody who won't follow their particular interpretation of religion and culture.
Strange you should mention 'cross reference' Casper. Further to my comment on one of my previous posts, regarding not all refugees are Muslim and that there is a large number of Christians too.
That point we do know for sure, as there are Christian and Coptic churches across many Muslim countries and they have been persecuted for a long time . More recently ,look at the Yazidi girls, for an example.
On reading an article last night there has suddenly been a huge rise in Muslim converts to Christianity. Thousands upon thousands of reports about young men having dreams about Jesus. Most of them had never heard of Jesus but knew instantly that it was him when he came to them and spoke to them. 'I am the way, the truth and the light '.
Well you all know that I am a believer in the power of Jesus , and at the same time, a sceptic on other issues .
Could it be that this unprecedented conversion that is taking place across the Arab world and Africa, could later see them convert back again to Muslim once they are granted safety from the fear of beheadings in their own countries ?
Alternatively , if they are converting once they arrive in Germany (as many are) is that a good sign for continued peace of a nation.
Where there are obviously genuine cases, I feel very guilty at thinking that somehow it doesn't ALL ring true. There again, if they are prepared to lie about their own faith, then they can't have much of a belief.
This reveals the mind set of those who live in communities in this country.
Quote from the statement of solidarity from BMC on 14th November, in the Telegraph newspaper.
British Muslim communities are equally appalled by the violence, and angered by those who commit abhorrent acts in the name of religion. The perpetrators do not represent us; their views are perverse and self-serving.
19th November 2015...same Telegraph newspaper
"The Muslim community are largely decent people but because of the taboo of converting to Christianity we are classed by them as ... and second-class citizens
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nverting-from-Islam-to-Christianity.html
Well I think I mentioned in an earlier post that there is an option for them to lie or deny their religion if they fear for their safety, the Muslim religion appears to be so ambiguous that in can be altered to suit any occasion, so no I don't think they have suddenly seen the light, most likely they have seen an opportunity for many more doors to be opened, if this is the case it will probably cause many more problems and internal conflict within communities in the future.
Come on rude, you cant disregard the findings of the program because it was produced by ch4,, there are always comments made about the legitimate source of programs made by all the media and the press I know some are worse than others even the BBC are accused of bias, its up to the individual to cross reference across the media spectrum to assess a true picture, if some of the content of that program doesn't give you cause for concern then you must be blinkered, we are not talking refugees here but people promoting death and violence to everybody who won't follow their particular interpretation of religion and culture.
Not watched the program Casper, have you a link to it, please? I assume it was Dispatches- although apparently that was about housing (last Mondays show). There is a 3 minute snippet of a programme about IS on the Dispatches website but that was shown in July? Now, if this is the programme you are referencing- then I would like to know why it was repeated and why now? Is that not buying into the media generated fear/ propaganda/ hysteria??
You say (not a direct quote) that it is up to individuals to cross reference across the media to find a true picture. I agree but I find that the majority of people do not do that. They read their 'news' papers or watch the News/ TV program and just accept what they see or read to be true.
Last June, a quarter of a million people marched to Parliament Square (from Bank of England, London) at the National Peoples Assembley Rally. If I recall correctly-there were zero arrests. What did the mainstream media report- if they bothered atall? Images of the anarchists (maybe 10 in total) burning something or other (think it was a flag) with their faces covered!!!
Quote Rude " Now, if this is the programme you are referencing- then I would like to know why it was repeated and why now? Is that not buying into the media generated fear/ propaganda/ hysteria?
Not really , Id see it as just being shown because its particular relevant at the moment . If its content is not true, then yes Id say its put there as propaganda and to add to fearmongering unecessarily but it all looked convincing enough to me .
It was called ISIS the British woman supporters unveiled, CH4 on Monday gone at 9pm, as far as I know it is not a repeat of any other program, I believe it is one of three programs to be screened, funny enough I haven't seen nor read anything about the program since which seems unusual, I get your drift about Ch4 and some of the benefits programs have been misleading and distasteful, and they do tend to lean toward sensationalism, but the footage of this guy inciting others cant be mistaken.
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