Surprised that we are not already discussing this on the Forums. This Circus is in Town....and dividing opinion across Wirral.

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...ews_on_circuses_using_animals/?ref=var_0

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...night_featuring_lions_and_tigers/?ref=ms

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1..._animals_as_Wirral_protest_grows/?ref=mr

I heard a little kid (about 6 years old) talking to his mother about a picture of a giraffe, she corrected him as it was a lion. True story. God knows what education he was having but you cant beat seeing real animals. He would remember them for life. I`m sure it must be cheaper to go to the circus than Chester Zoo and not all can afford to go to the Zoo, so it really could be the only chance some kids might see the animals. I used to love the circus with animals. The animals are well looked after and remember these are normally treated as big pets by their owners.

Jolly's lion trainer is a Chipperfield, one of the clan twice prosecuted for animal cruelty & one of only 2 companies still using animals in humiliating acts based on brutal training. A recent expose filmed big cats in tiny cages, llamas tethered in front of predators & a fox clearly distressed forced to ride a donkey's back.

All this at Mr Jollies Circus?

Yes. You good at Google aint ya?? I'm off now.Goodnight.

Wondered why people were holding up "say no" placards to passing motorists.
I don't suppose there will be anything left to ban eventually. And even when they have banned everything, safe in the knowledge that everything wrong with the world has been banned, they will ban us from sleeping contently in our beds.

When we read the stories such as the following, it is hard to understand why such beautiful beast should be subjected to their caged lives, for ours and in particular, the circus owners pleasures.

Can't agree with any of it.

Anne the Elephant..57 years in a circus, which probably means, most of her life either chained or in a truck . That's not even humane.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/07/anne-the-elephant-goodbye-circus

So Jollies lions and tigers are different from wild animals as they are bred from 2 or 3 generations of captive animals? OK then ,I expect the circus owners would be very confident allowing the public access to pet and play with these pussycats if they are now so domesticated?
Flipping tosh , wild animals will always have the instincts of the wild which is why it IS necessary to have tight security to keep big cats and people apart! That said, its obviously not right to keep WILD animals in disgustingly restricted spaces, forcing them to do alien movements to order, purely for human entertainment. Dont people who support circuses feel any compassion when they see these animals in their travelling cages (where they spend a large % of their time) swaying and pacing with stress and frustration ?

Where do they get the British born animals from several generations ? If true, then that's another interesting topic. Surely not zoos ? They could be up for slaughter too, if that's the case.

Just found this article: 8th July 2013

The UK government recently announced that a ban prohibiting the use of wild animals in circuses in Britain would come into effect in 2015

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23179862

i just wonder if any of the objectors on here keep any animals as a pet?

Yes have had, what would you like to know about Hanky ?

ALL animals were wild at one time.

We domesticated dogs and cats and now even more exotic species such as racoons, meerkats, coatis, civets and much more are being bred for the general worldwide pet trade.

Hypocritical ??? Yes, I know I certainly am.

I'm happy to go to see animals caged in a zoo so why do I disagree so strongly about seeing them in a circus? Maybe it's because they a forced to perform as entertainment but either way, caged is caged and they should all be running wild in an ideal world. It'll never happen though.

I have pets myself - hypocritical? Yup, I think it is.

We object to things we don't agree with but exclude certain parts to suit ourselves.

Human nature unfortunately - we are our own and everything else's worst enemy

There's a place in Spain called Noah's Ark it's high up in the hills known as Guadalest. English translation: eagle's nest.
I've been there twice. It was closed to the public some years ago, when a leopard ripped the arm off a woman who somehow managed to get herself over the screen guard and thinking she could stroke it lost the whole of her arm. People said that she was a Welsh tourist on a coach trip.
The place itself is a marvellous tribute to the man who runs it. He collects animals from all over the world who have been mistreated. There are chimpanzees who have suffered brain damage as a consequence of being used for experimentation. Ferocious they are too. He had a lion that had lived its whole life in a small cage and was discovered in a Russian factory. It never left the cage. A dancing bear, also from Russia, that dances when he is hungry. He knows nothing else. Shame about that woman, as the owner relied on donations from visitors to keep the place running. Her accident had it closed. I have to say, I have never in my life been able to get so close to wildcats, panthers, jaguars, tigers, lions, cougars, and leopards. They were all there when we last visited.

Just read the reviews on Trip Advisor- it seemed an amazing place.

personally I don't keep my cat in a cage and make £ off him doing silly tricks for fat selfish consumer kids like the uks kids have become like the usa
its just another commodification of animal life
ask yourself seriously WHY zoos exist or circus......because OUR slaughter for food, body parts for dumb stupid medicine or folklore, destroying THEIR natural habitat, the fact they cant breed effectively in their natural environment is down to guess who ??? US and our all consuming life styles
Dumb people say WE help them by caging them, training them, WRONG its all about money.
The stupid thing about the human race is they mentally justify ANY pain suffering or stress or lack of empathy or caring of animals if it suits them.
" IT DOESNT FEEL PAIN THE SAME ITS AN ANIMAL ,SO ITS OK"
I see dolphins whales in guess where on holiday?.....the sea!!
Its hard to argue against the intelligent arguments in the movie "BLACK FISH"
Remember what shaun monson says in earthlings "FOOD , ENTERTAINMENT, RESEARCH ,CLOTHING"
The four corners of how we use,abuse animals and are very switched off to it esp nowadays
cruelty in north west uk has risen 25% in 2014
I always say on here ,look beyond yourself and your meaningless consumption

They've opened a new one.

http://www.theleader.info/article/23043

I was told that the woman who lost her arm had been on a coach that had stopped at a bodega en-route, which was how we got there. The liqueurs flow freely for the traveller, so perhaps the unfortunate lady had drunk too many. The truth about it I don't really know. But it was a great place to visit. He had a large boa constrictor hanging over our heads from a tree. Contrary to what I always thought, they don't feel slimy to the touch.

Similar to my points very true but is the human race really gona be happy when , whats left of them ,the animal world is only viewable through A CAGE !

what a sad sad world itll be.
theres a global world herd of 60 billion animals for our food.....in 20 years that HAS to grow due to our growth up to 100 billion
seeing as most global damage is down to the farming of them not ships, cars, material production etc
think this is SUSTAINABLE !?? no chance.....
I honestly think this world in time will be like the movie "soylent green"
Theres a really sad bit, of many, in 'earthlings' showing a fed up elephant after years of abuse being caged up escaping into the streets of india....
they hunt it down and shoot it loads of times till it ebbs out of life in the street....what a terrible end to an amazing powerful beautiful animal who deserves a natural life.

Is this acceptable ?

Zoos have come on a long way in recent times. Chester is a brilliant zoo for its conservation work and making the zoo environment as close to real life as possible.

The circus is a different kettle of fish altogether. Tiny cages, transported around the country (or further) and made to perform silly tricks.

. Torturing Babies. Thank heavens there are no longer elephants in our circus here. This is Florida, but no doubt the same training has been used over the years, all over the world for all of the animals. We don't generally treat our 'pets' this way...do we? Oh yes, and they're all 'white man' !



Google search 'circus animals', it may break your heart.

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Please sign & share:-
http://www.yousign.org/en/peter-jolly-circus

Done

Done

Copycat

Grrrrr.....

Done.

Don't get me started on Pudsey.

Signed

and another.....
http://www.captiveanimals.org/.../government-must-find...

A few pics from today's evening protest session.

if you oppose Animals in entertainment then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but please don't support ADI or CAPS, these are the UKIP of the animal welfare world, they take a slight truth and manipulate it to fit their agenda, they take photos and crop them and edit them, even photoshop them, so that they appear to show something that wasn't actually the way it was.
The tiger in the small cage that is shown in the above CAPS link, isn't even in this country, so wouldn't be affected by a UK ban, but CAPS doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good protest.
I'm against animal cruelty as much as the next person but in my personal opinion, trained Animal's in entertainment isn't cruel if done to the standards set by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs. DEFRA are the experts, who have the facts, both scientific and research based, and if they grant a license then who are we to argue.

great pics Rude

Plus says thanks
I would say 70% of the public tooted in support. 25% were nonchalant and 5% gave the Vs, the swivvels and the Winker sign.

On just this Watch- Saturday Evening ( protests start an hour before performances every day)a car load and several people on foot turned away. No pressure/ intimidation- just education.

We counted 14 cars who arrived- 60 peeps at most. LOL. Several people on foot. The maximum people at tonights show were 80- hardly 'bursting at the seams via demand' as reported.

And now all the animals will go hungry through lack of money. Hope you are going to provide food for the starving animals. You have now caused cruelty to the animals yourselves.

Really? Give your head a wobble. The Jolly staff should cut back their own food, funny how you assume that they would cut back on their cash-cows food.

No money coming in, cant afford to feed the animals. Time to get them put down all because you like to protest and get your picture taken. That is sad.

You making this personal? I suggest you pm me, got no interest in engaging with you on a public level. Goodnight.

No intimidation, just education? Really?

I've attended this circus twice whilst it's been in Upton, 1 night there wasn't a protest at all, the 2nd time there was a lot of intimidation from the protestors seen, being approached by a mob is intimidating enough for most people, and the wording they were using to "educate" people was aggressive in its self "Do YOU want to be responsible for this animal living a miserable life and being mistreated"
Unfortunately the protestors are educating people to their opinion and not to the facts, the scientific research or the truth.

The truth is, these animals should be in their natural habitat that allows them to roam thousands of square miles, should they wish to do so. What possible scientific research can anyone come up with that concludes being caged and captive equates to having their natural freedom.

The scientific research concluded that if kept at a certain standard or better that the animals in a traveling circus suffered no distress, hence the introduction of legislation, regulations and licensing, all over seen by DEFRA, who are the government experts in this field.

Just like the protestors, that is your opinion, not fact.

I'd like to personally stage a protest, about the protestors. Might even make my own half-arse crudely written sign on a piece of Cardboard!

That poor dog should be in its natural habitat, allowed to run free. It shouldnt be kept on a leash, next to a potentially dangerous road whilst its Hypocrite owner tries to "Force their view" on other innocent members of the public. Then what after they go home? Does the dog "Perform" to the owners will to receive a treat or a fussing, handing you its Paw maybe? Disgraceful!

I'd also like to point out that animals can become distressed at the presence of random and loud noises. So for people who care so much, to try and get road users to "Beep" their horns in close proximity to "Wild Animals" is foolish, dangerous and totally irresponsible. For shame...

Another point I would also like to share, is that this hugely successfull protest is a selfish act in 2 ways. 1, pointless waste of police time, spending tax payers money when the police could have been used/needed elsewhere. Everyone knows that police funding and therefore numbers have been cut massively, so to waste police time in this manner is pathetic and disgustingly selfish!!

And finally, by holding a protest so close to a road, you could have potentially caused a lethal situation regarding vehicle users being distracted. What if the dog had run into the road, causing a car to swerve, lose control and tragically hit a group of protesters who so happened to be there? Would that road suddenly receive a Speed Camera as it was an "Accident Blackspot"? Would the driver recieve enough compensation to help them combat the emotive issues and feelings they would experience over the next couple of years? Not forgetting the NHS costs for treatment, and if the incident was unfortunately fatal, spiralling funeral costs?


No, I do not agree with the protest sorry. Its nice that you "Think" you are doing the right thing, but in reality all you are achieving is to bully others to believe your "Facts" and at the same time, ruin memories for families (including children( in the future. Will you enjoy telling Mildred at the next cream cake and coffee evening of your endeavours at the weekend? Maybe ring the Wirral Globe and have a 2 paragraph article printed on page 42 that you can cut out and keep to show your friends and family members over the next couple of years? Will the fame be shortlived? Yes, I believe so. And the Circus will continue to function as it always has. So Congratulations on your very important and successful protest ! Now please go and complain about number 42 in the road putting up a shed in their Garden without permission from the council. Not that you can see it from your house of course, but it is the principle!

If wild animals become distressed at random and loud noises, is applause discouraged in the circus during animal performances?

Applause in an Auditorium has been recorded at 85 db (enclosed solid building). Similar to that of a bus, or a modern aircraft at a distance of 1 mile. In a Circus tent, although the db limit wouldn't change, the effect would be lessened due to environmental losses.

LEGAL Car horns (as some purchase aftermarket products) are between the limits of 100 and 109 db.

Not forgetting that the hearing of many animals is vastly superior to our own, if you have any knowledge of how Decibels work, you cannot fail to see why that is an issue.

Applause would not be classed as random for these animals, they will be accustom to applause.

Nothing could be more distressing than being caged and captive though could it.

Scientific research sometimes takes a rather unusual path too.

e.g. A specific species of monkey, thought to be extinct, was found in the Tanzanian Forests. The Authorities were informed and the British Museum requested the creature to be killed and sent to them for scientific research ! The person who found it, also a scientist, refused to oblige.......

Although my opposition to animals in zoo's is on a par with Bert's, I do think that people should be able to make up their own minds and should not be bullied into pulling back, unless they change their thought process.

So far as the noise decibels are concerned, you are correct Kreki, very sensitive hearing on these animals and I imagine these animals live with the roar of traffic, applause, cannon fire and electrical motors on a permanent buzz all their lives. They have probably been well and truly deaf from a young age.

If kept in sub-regulation conditions, no.

But the conditions of the circus in question is far superior to regulation.

When audited, which is a condition of the license, they recieve no advisories, only compliments. These audits are done by local officials and vets.

They are being audited through the eyes and opinions of a humans. Not necessarily correct.

All those in favour, should be sent to the jungle without the cosiness of your four protective walls. Change of rolls , and see how you get on.

They are being protested against through the views and opinions of a humans. Not necessarily correct.

So now the professionals, the experts, the highly educated on this matter, that have been entrusted by the government with the power to grant, deny or revoke a license are wrong?

No, the protest is against any further involvement in making caged animals perform tricks. That is correct

On what basis?

But they are not highly educated on this matter, only on the matter that those in offices can prepare a symptomatic report and give clearance of a situation which was held by Victorians to be of great wonder. We have moved on and as it is the centenary of the World War I tomorrow , we have learnt lessons from so much, and developed our Victorian ideas to better please humanity,......why not for the animals ? That itself answers a question doesn't it ? All down to keeping people happy for pleasure. Tourism etc. and caged animals. Do you agree with dancing bears in Russia, or cock fighting, it's all for entertainment purposes ? What do the professionals say about that ?

So what truly is your opinion ? Are you totally for caged animals in circuses to continue like a legacy, for the benefit of you and your screwed up little mind that can't see any further than your own back yard, or is it because you have such a disregard for the welfare of animals that your case is closed and invalid right from the onset? The latter I think is to be seriously considered.

My opposition to caged and captive animals is based purely on, they are not being allowed to live their lives as intended for the species, as nature intended. Regulations and conditions shouldn't come into it, they shouldn't be locked up in the first place. If they are being looked after properly under captive conditions doesn't compensate taking away their freedom to roam, live in their natural habitat. Taken away by mans greed, to profit from.

Dancing bears and cock fighting causes distress and injury to the animal though, circuses meeting regulation in England don't. A great example of what I said earlier about using a slight truth out of context and manipulated to meet the agenda.

So a vet isn't highly educated to recognise if an animal is suffering, in ill health or if their living conditions are suitable for giving them an acceptable standard of living?

Personally Waddi, educated or not I am quite sure these vets would not accept that continued exploitation of caged animals is right.
If these animals are being fed etc. it's a better option to give them the tick in the box, rather than being euthanized, but from the vets I have known, they would be a lot happier to see the practice banned altogether and no further creatures being subjected to many years of imprisonment like circuses do!

My opinion is that the government with assistance from experts in the field, set standards and regulations, and if those standards are met then the circus, the zoo, the private keeping of animals in the DWA list should be allowed.

Another point proven, agressive words from those that protest.

The Government with assistance from experts bombed the life out of Iraq a few years ago !! SO DON'T quote government to me and how their findings are paramount and unquestionably, correct!

http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/wildlife/captivity/circuses

We’re campaigning against the use of wild animals in circuses and lobbying the Westminster and Welsh governments to ban their use in England and Wales , as other countries have already done.


We don't believe animals should be subjected to the conditions of circus life. Regular transport, cramped and bare temporary housing, forced training and performance, loud noises and crowds of people are often unavoidable realities for the animals.


Scientific research has shown that travelling circus life is likely to have a harmful effect on animal welfare [1].



SO who do we believe ?

Interesting. So you don't agree with bullying and believe that people should be able to make up their own minds, Yet you continue to post your opinion, and then use so called "Examples" without actual references to back up your posts. So who do we believe indeed? Do I believe scientific research into the wellbeing of animals bred into capitivity (the Government and Science in general are a conspiracy) or do I believe your views which you seem to share with the RSPCA (Who unfortunately I also think breed their own conspiracies)?

Regardless of what I choose to or not to believe, I still stand by the fact that you hate bullying, but seem to be supporting the bullying performed by the protesters. All I have seen in this thread so far is blatant Hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy - Hypocrisy is the claim or pretense of holding beliefs, feelings, standards, qualities, opinions, behaviors, virtues, motivations, or other characteristics that one does not in actual fact hold. It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another.

Which also links to my original comment about the decibel levels. Simply saying "Its ok for us to initiate horn beeping to support our cause, even though potentially causing distress to the animals" just isn't good enough. That makes you as bad as the supposed "Bad Bad Circus Men".

"They have probably been well and truly deaf from a young age. " Could I see the proof/evidence please?

What examples are you looking for Kreki ? Do we need an example for the mistakes made in Iraq?
I gave the link for the rspca,, what other? Maybe this is what you require:

http://www.cepf.net/Documents/Arc_Journal_23.pdf
Photo by John Watkin
the arc journal Issue 23
3
he and Katherine then
learned that children in sanje village were indeed keeping a pet mangabey. although the children had trimmed its long fringe it was clear that this was an undocumented species – one that is endemic to the udzungwa Mountains. It became known as the sanje mangabey. asked by the British Museum of natural history to shoot and kill one as a type specimen, alan declined, and the captive mangabey lived out its days at Von nagy’s wildlife sanctuary in arusha.

Oh, and by the way, the word 'Hypocrisy' is of Greek origin, and animals have not yet understood the meaning of the word. Neither have they understood the meaning behind being locked in cages and forced to perform, like they were in Roman times.
So whatever you wish to accuse supporters of, still doesn't help the animals.
Other than that, I don't know what on earth you are rambling on about, or for what purpose.

Waddi, you seem to know all about this circus and you state that it more than meets legislative standards.
I would be genuinely interested if you could give us a breakdown of how a typical big cat at this circus , would spend a typical 24hrs ? What size is the accommodation cage , number of hours it would occupy it, number of hours it would be 'training' , hours performing etc etc.

My partner and kids went to the circus and had a great time. The staff did a 5 minute speech at the beginning pointing out the protesters have been invited into the circus grounds to see how and where the animals live and also where invited to the show for free, to see for themselves - they all refused.

I suppose going by previous comments I should let my fish be free and live a wild life in the rivers of the world.
My rabbits should also be set free along with my hens and my dog.

Anyone got anything better to moan about because this is just pathetic. Yes you hear bad stories in the press about how some circus animals are kept but that is because they are extreme stories. When do you ever hear on the news that a particular circus treats animals as they should in line with the law and regulations - never.
This particular circus gets 4 inspections every year, 2 announced and 2 unannounced and have passed every time.

Alas some people like to have every ones share of the "15 minutes of fame". Once they see themselves in the paper... cant live without it. We should all protest against the protesters.

Absolute rubbish. The staff are liars.

One last month actually regarding Jollys.

How is the Iraq war relevant to this discussion? Unless of course you are referring to the earlier point raised by someone, that the Circus is a barbaric venture that belongs in the Victorian age? In that case, then the only connection I can see between this and Iraq is that Religion was the main driving factor behind the war (Infadels, difference in opinion etc etc) and that is even older than Victorian Principles. So following that logic, shouldnt we all go and protest outside churches to the religious chapter? Ban all Religion?

Yes, I am aware of the origins of the term hypocrisy. I struggle to understand what you were rambling on about yourself in that paragraph however. Unless of course you are merely stating that the animals "In need of rescue" cannot even remotely differentiate between their "Owners" or "Rescuers"? Which I probably agree with. But I also believe that an animal faced with its owner who provides them with healthcare, food, water and shelter etc, would prefer that to the crowd of noisy protesters fighting for their so called rights! Has anybody actually gone in and asked the animals what life they would prefer? Or is this just another case of people trying to become deities and force their opinions on others........

This is not in response to your post Kreki, I find nothing to respond to, in that, but can I ask if your real name is Harmony?



A recent article quotes a spokesperson for Jolly's saying:

"Defra also does stress tests and assesses the animal's physical and mental health. Our animals are absolutely fine.

As we know DEFRA is the governmental authority, and the experts, who have the facts, both scientific and research based, and if they grant a licenses then apparently, we should not argue.

The same article is followed with a statement from a spokesman for DEFRA ;

A spokesman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said it still intends to ban wild animals in circuses.

He said: “We are committed to banning the use of wild animals in circuses and will introduce legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.


“As we work towards a ban we have a strict system in place to ensure the welfare of all 23 circus animals in England – this includes announced and unannounced inspections, care plans for every animal, regular veterinary inspections and a retirement plan for each animal.”


http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/486002/Shock-video-Tigers-caged-pacing-in-cells-in-UK-circus

It would therefore appear that DEFRA are determined to have wild animals banned from circuses and those who are not in support of the ban have to ask themselves why the 'experts'" are.

Interesting. So you struggle to answer your own views when brought into question. And no, for the record my name is not Harmony. Nor am I a woman. Unfortunate if you have someone who specifically disagrees with you (an enemy?) but that is not me.

Do you believe everything that a Middle Market Tabloid Newspaper happens to publish?


"I run the paper for the purpose of making propaganda and with no other motive".[7]
Lord Beaverbrook, former owner.

Is this you then ?

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?/user/41894-kreki/

Afraid not. I am intrigued as to why you seem so desperate to try and find me in the illustrious and anonymous world of the internet?

Not only me mate, everyone else on here too !

So what did the animals do? I stand by what I said earlier and that they shouldn't be carted around and made to do tricks.

You want to see wild animals, at least see them in a reputable zoo where there's a good recreation of their habitat.

Why don't you pay the circus a visit and ask the big cat trainer these questions, they are very open and will answer your questions.

Wikiwirral is a public forum, where anyone and everyone can air their views thanks to freedom of speech but also allows a degree of Anonymity thanks to the nature of the internet.

So with that in mind, I fail to see why stalking and trying to find out my "Super hidden Identity" will help anyone's cause on here haha. But if your special Troupe of users want to know anything, why not just ask instead of acting out "Murder She Wrote" episodes! Could even maybe start your own discussion topic and protest at my presence on here?


Gibbo, a reputable Zoo like say for example, Knowsely Safari Park? A Well known Safari Park, that was headlining national news not so long ago for slacking welfare of their animals, and for Culling innocent animals and leaving their bodies to rot by some bins if I remember correctly. I didnt see any protests about that!

got to love the way people link stuff from the rspca, are they still the most complained about charity in the uk? conning old people a speciality.

also notice no one has moaned about blue planet aquarium. keeping sharks in a tiny tank and watching them pretty much cripple themselves.

Not me, I don't care who Kreki is. As long as he is nice :-)

Get back in your corner and beg for a bone .

and are you complaining again Hanky, or even calling me old ?
Maybe people can't comment on what they haven't experienced. Those who do are lucky to be able to afford it !

didn't call you old

[quote/] A Well known Safari Park, that was headlining national news not so long ago for slacking welfare of their animals, and for Culling innocent animals and leaving their bodies to rot by some bins if I remember correctly. I didnt see any protests about that! [/quote]

Just because it was not widely reported does not mean that it did not happen.

They lie to the audience that are as captive as the poor animals. Pay their paltry 6 quid and want reassurance from the Ring-Leader that Tigger gets fed and watered. Ring-master says 'Yes' so the Sheeples settle down and white- wash the TRUTH, from their minds that they know is true but hey, its only £6 and it keeps the kids amused....

Waddi [/quote]

Why don't you pay the circus a visit and ask the big cat trainer these questions, they are very open and will answer your questions. [unquote]


The reason Im asking you is because given your unshakable support for the quality of life big cats have in a circus indicates you obviously must have personal detailed knowledge of these animals day to day circus lives (unless of course you are just blindly trusting and quoting claims from their trainers)-- and I like to hear answers from 'the horses mouth'
Not everyone is in a position to physically visit circuses etc , hence its interesting to hear views on an online forum

Youve previously stated that you think the pounds dog kennels are only suitable for temporary accommodation and that it would be cruel to keep dogs in those sort of conditions long term --in fact that euthanasia would be kinder , so Im wondering how you reconcile the idea of permanent containment of the circus's big cats, in spaces which may well be proportionately similar-- (which is why I asked the size of cats living accommodation -- you must be aware of it, to have bestowed your approval)

selective quotation at its best. What I actually said was:
"The conditions of the pound look fit for purpose to me, A holding unit for a stray, abandoned or lost dog whilst awaiting collection by the owner or rehoming. They are not designed to be a permanent home and IMHO any animal left here for a length of time should be put to sleep and put of its misery.

In reality this is the best that the council can offer with its current finances, how about we get rid of it completely and have no holding unit at all, and any animal brought into the pound is instantly euthanised.

Im an ex-zoo keeper and big animal lover but also a realist, this is not a place for the dogs to live, its a short term holding unit!

So the only thing I could see wrong here, would be how long animals are kept in these units before euthanasia, and this is a management issue rather than a conditions issue."

And I did go on to say:
"If a home can not be found for them within a set period of time, whether that be rehomed to a new family or in any of the many rescues and rehoming centres like the RSPCA or the Dogs trust, then yes. I know its not ideal, but neither is keeping them alive to live a sterile life in what was designed to be a temporary holding unit."

I do not class the enclosure or the conditions at this circus as sterile, nor was it designed as a temporary holding unit, it was designed as a multi-species travelling unit with an outdoor exercise pen, to which it meets its needs.

Did you read the whole thread, including the part about me being an ex Zoo Keeper, and the commendations of my knowledge and experience in the area of captive animal keeping. well during my time as a zoo keeper and since, I have networked with a variety of animal keepers all over Europe, in Super Zoos like Chester to small road side zoos in the likes of Spain and Turkey, including travelling Circuses and Static Circuses. I've seen bad conditions, and this circus doesn't even come close. I've seen poor condition animals in ill health due to their lifestyle and the animals in this circus are the picture of health. I've seen animals in distress and the animals in this circus are not suffering any distress. I've seen cruel training methods and the methods used at this circus are not cruel. And that is why I give my unshakable support.

So if the animals are in good Health, not under any distress and their living conditions are acceptable, then even an anti-circus vet doesn't let their personal opinion get in the way of their professional opinion and gives the circus the green light.

Your knowledge is certainly wide and personally gained. I respect that. So I believe you speak with authority when you judge that Jolie's is a 'good' example of circus animal care.

So, why so reticent in quoting figures? What are the actual dimensions we are talking about for say an exercise enclosure and how long do they stay in it daily, what size for the living accommodation and what size for the travelling accommodation if different to the living one?

Im not baiting you here, I genuinely want to know so I can consider the facts rather than imagining them.

The only reason I don't want to quote figures is that I don't feel its my place to, I'm not too good with figures so wouldn't want to misquote on sizes and then them to be taken as fact, like you said, best to be heard from the horses mouth,

The RSPCA are still complained about yes. Especially in circumstances such as I experienced recently, where upon contacting them to inform them of a number of ducks seemingly in distress at a local pond (which shall remain unnamed) from carelessly discarded fishing wire and tackle, their response was to simply "leave them" and they "would probably just die off at some point in the near future". A slightly different approach to the view cast on the RSPCA with all their Propagan... sorry, advertising and programming such as Animal Hospital. That Rolf Harris fella was a top bloke wasn't he!

Oh, and Mr Hanky, nobody really cares about the Blue Planet Aquarium as fish arent quite as cuddly or fluffy, so they're not as important. Well, at least I imagine that would be the case, as Ive yet to see Protesters hanging out the front entrance with their beautifully created cardboard propaganda creations.



Somebody previously mentioned earlier (my apologies for forgetting who) that Zoos and Safari Parks have come on a long way from their initial inception, and are a different kettle of fish altogether from the Circus! Well if this report from a lady who worked at Knowsley Safari Park is anything to go by, then that statement would be correct, as the Circus is a better quality of life than the Zoos and Safari "Environments". Still no opposition to those companies trading though I see......

Liz Tyson, Director of the Captive Animals’ Protection Society, said:

“Shocking as the pictures that we reveal are, what is perhaps even more shocking is that killing animals is all part and parcel of zoo practice. Zoo breeding programmes are in place to encourage people through the turnstiles and ensure a constant supply of animals to show to paying visitors. Rather than being released into the wild, the sad truth is that animals are routinely killed as they become surplus to requirements. As we’ve seen here, corpses are sometimes left lying around for many days; not only creating an environmental hazard but also distressing staff who are unhappy about the slaughtering.

“Often lauded as a more humane alternative to a traditional zoo setup, we urge people to scratch below the surface of the public perception of safari parks, to see the evidence of what goes on behind closed doors. Zoos are not protectors and saviours of animals. Effective conservation has long been shown to be concerned with the protection of entire ecosystems and confining individual species with no opportunity for future release cannot, and will not, achieve this aim. With this in mind, it is vital that resources are not directed towards paying entrance fees to zoos and safari parks but towards the support of true conservation initiatives in these animals’ natural habitats.


Also like to point out, that the "Noah's Ark" attraction in Spain, although seen in a better light as it rehomes animals who were up for slaughter, actually manages to replicate the exact same living conditions as zoos and the Circus by enclosing "Wild" animals in captivity. Nothing but praise for that location though. Good old Hypocrisy rearing its head again

So if the animals are in good Health, not under any distress and their living conditions are acceptable, then even an anti-circus vet doesn't let their personal opinion get in the way of their professional opinion and gives the circus the green light. [/quote]

This was the quote from DEFRA, taken from my post on page 5 of this topic, which you portray to be the experts and professionals opinion in this field. They are obviously waiting for the time when wild animals are banned from circuses , and in the meantime keeping ahead of th game for the benefit of the animals. Of which, the circuses are expecting inspections and have at this moment in time , cleaned up their act. That's pretty normal for anyone having inspections, and unannounced.

"The same article is followed with a statement from a spokesman for DEFRA ;

A spokesman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said it still intends to ban wild animals in circuses.

He said: “We are committed to banning the use of wild animals in circuses and will introduce legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.


“As we work towards a ban we have a strict system in place to ensure the welfare of all 23 circus animals in England – this includes announced and unannounced inspections, care plans for every animal, regular veterinary inspections and a retirement plan for each animal.”

What would you be likely to do Waddi, would you keep everything ship shape, just incase ?
These animals have been bred in captivity and known no other life, I cannot understand how we can prove that such wild animals with their genes of thousands of years are meant to be caged for circuses to use as fun. I truly cannot, and cannot understand anyone else even considering it to be ok . There is no sense in that opinion. If these inspections and personal actions had not been carried out, there would be far, far more than 23 wild animals nationwide in circuses at the moment , which means that overall, the animals have either been rescued, euthanized , or died of old age and not been replaced. That would tell us that it's not such a popular event anymore. These animals should NOT be replaced with another generation of them after this present 23 in the uk. The practice should be outlawed for any circus coming to the UK
I would like to see DEFRA's figures on this because according to other records there are many animals still being rescued in this country, and if the ban is in place it will be a ban for foreign owned circuses coming here too, with their rather more cruel attitude of mind to animals.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-26880660

Given your vast professional experience Waddi -----

"the commendations of my knowledge and experience in the area of captive animal keeping. well during my time as a zoo keeper and since, I have networked with a variety of animal keepers all over Europe, in Super Zoos like Chester to small road side zoos in the likes of Spain and Turkey, including travelling Circuses and Static Circuses. I've seen bad conditions, and this circus doesn't even come close. "

--I find it implausible that you dont have a really good grasp of sizing as you'd need it, to partake in the networking you have done. For captive animals , size of accommodation has to be a HUGE part of discussions as its so relevant to behaviour and health.

So,because I think you would be too professional to lie, although I take your point about being quoted on sizes at Jollie's , I feel its more a case of you knowing that the sizes I asked for, would look terrible when considered by ordinary animal lovers who would see it as the equivalent of keeping their own domestic cat in a space the size of a bedroom ottoman most of the time , and a rabbit run ,for it to exercise in for a short time in the day.
You really should have the courage of your convictions , state the approx sizes which Im sure you can do reasonably accurately,and allow us to consider them.

I certainly wouldnt trust the answers of a circus trainer.

Regarding your association of animals looking in tip top health with whether they are well treated or not. There is little correlation in many cases . Case in point on TV last night on dangerous dogs. Pitbulls horribly kicked around and tormented --- they looked absolutely beautiful healthwise -- better in fact than my own well cared for bullterrier.

But Venice, you trust Zoos and Safari Parks with their "Conservation efforts", despite also preventing animals from having free reign of their own domain? And if you read my post above, you will have a brief glimpse about what happens behind the scenes.

You also happen to own your own pet, your bullterrier. Could you please divulge in providing us with the exact dimensions of the rooms of your House, Garden, Vehicle and any potential areas for "Walkies" so that we can consider whether or not these are truly appropriate for an animal that should be wild? Is it being fed an appropriate diet that it would experience in the wild? I assume your bull terrier also has its own collar and leash, would these be readily available in the wild?

If we want Justice and freedom for Circus animals, then surely freedom and justice should be granted to all animals, domesticated or otherwise. Only Human intervention over the years has placed that dog into your ownership via domestication and breeding. The same way circus animals are absorbed into entertainment. They are not simply, plucked from the plains of Africa and dumped in a cage. In fact, I would argue that the Circus animals themselves could potentially perish if released into their natural homes, as they would lack the necessary skills for survival!

Total freedom is obviously not possible in our world, but we must strive for the best we can offer when we take animals from their natural homes.
Regarding you implying big cats descended from wild animals are no different in their circus situation from our domestic cats/dogs
in our home because the wildness is bred out -- I ask as once before , why are the circus/zoos so careful about security then, why cant we closely associate with the lions and tigers?

In fact, I would argue that the Circus animals themselves could potentially perish if released into their natural homes, as they would lack the necessary skills for survival!

I agree with you there in most instances. Thats why circus animals would if circuses finished, have to be absorbed into a semi wild environment like a safari park , and then hopefully circuses would not be replenished with animal acts and could concentrate on admirable skills like the circus soleil.

Venice, empty your in box.

No, Zoos and Safari Parks under achieve in that respect i do agree. And with evidence of culling for no specific reason from these "Businesses", I would potentially fear for the life of these circus animals if they were placed into further captivity. With a lack of social life, they would either be placed into solitary confinement, potentially injured whilst mixing with others of the same breed, or the easier option, culled. So in that respect, I truly believe the lesser of 2 evils to be the Circus, where the livelihood of these people rests solely on the wellfare and care of these animals.

The Circus animals are what, 3 generations in captivity I think I read somewhere? Maybe not enough to initiate them into our homes, although there are many examples recently of animals similar to these living well amongst others in a home environment. But a lot of work and training would be required. Similar I imagine to the early breeds of dog. Usual dog characteristics have nearly all been bred out of modern breeds, the majority showing and acting like Puppies for their short and innocent lifes. Who is to say that after a number of generations, this could not also become true for large cats?

[youtube]uybSIpzE2mA[/youtube]

Slightly off topic. Chester Zoo voted best in the U.K
http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...st_in_UK_and_sixth_best_in_world/?ref=mr

Best in regards to what exactly? Knowsley Safari park was 8th, which doesnt really fill me with confidence. Profit maybe? Animal welfare, probably not.

Also, I'd just like to point out that trying to use personal insults on the internet, doesn't really help the cause you're fighting for Rudebox.



Personally, I'd like Jehova's witnesses and Cold Callers to go away, but there isn't anything I can do about that unfortunately.

Quote Kreki "I would potentially fear for the life of these circus animals if they were placed into further captivity. With a lack of social life, they would either be placed into solitary confinement, potentially injured whilst mixing with others of the same breed, or the easier option, culled. So in that respect, I truly believe the lesser of 2 evils to be the Circus, where the livelihood of these people rests solely on the wellfare and care of these animals."

What happens to circus animals once they become older, slower, arthritic or unwilling to perform ? Do circus's earn so much they can afford to carry around and feed animals who although comparitively healthy can no longer earn their keep?

Oh, and

quote kreki "Similar I imagine to the early breeds of dog. Usual dog characteristics have nearly all been bred out of modern breeds, the majority showing and acting like Puppies for their short and innocent lifes. Who is to say that after a number of generations, this could not also become true for large cats?


animal circuses have been going for generations and it hasnt happened yet !

Of course not, silly suggestion! Some die of old age/illness. The "Lucky" ones probably get placed into the Zoos which people seem to love and grovel over, but they end up living lives no better than what they were used to. Which is why I am still left wondering why local people here don't travel down to Chester Zoo to Protest. Or maybe jump on a bus and follow the Circus to their next location? Protesting BandWagon maybe?

Difference is, there is actual evidence of Zoos culling the animals as a way to make a profit. Whereas some of the recent articles pointing fingers of animal welfare at Mr Jollies Circus ended up being falsified, as the big cat who died, did so of Cancer. Funny how things can become twisted round to suit the views of the minority.

The Circuses aren't trying to domesticate the animals for their own personal enjoyment. Sounds like scraping of the barrel of your own there Im afraid...

The tiger might have died for reasons nothing to do with circuses , but heres a nice video of actual footage of the accommodation for Jolly's big cats, with them enjoying their spacious surroundings . In the gloom, you can make out the stereotypical swaying and pacing --and you insist they dont suffer stress in the confinement of circus quarters?


Worth a look folks and make your own minds up about whether you want lions and tigers incarcerated like this for huge parts of their lives - and remember , as Waddi and Kreki say - the accommodation you are looking at , is ABOVE the normal standard .

http://www.ad-international.org/animals_in_entertainment/go.php?id=3698&ssi=10

I have seen that video venice and it is disgusting. I have also seen today a covert video of the 'pound' that the dogs are kept in- filmed two days ago at the Saughall Massey camp.

It appears to be a metal'play pen' type extension to the back of a truck. Not nice viewing tbh.

(Not uploaded to YouTube yet as far as I know- otherwise I would Upload it)

Saughall Massey camp???? Thought the pound was in Birkenhead?

meaning the circus site. The area the dogs are contained in though reminds me of the pound.

Duh , sorry , didnt know they had performing dogs .

I'd also like to point out that that specific video does NOT show the full enclosure which the animals are permitted freedom in. Maybe if the "Reporter" who recorded the animals had actually entered the compound and taken good quality and clear photos/video (Like they have been invited to do) this could be addressed. But no, its better to twist the actual truth as per usual. Nor does the video refer to the fact the animals are given regular exercise. Pictures and other videos Ive seen all Imply that the animals are kept in their cages at all times, and that simply is not true. They are allowed to play with another in social settings, but then also given their own solitary time as they would obtain in the wild. There is also a number of "Toys" and other interesting objects available within the outer pen. The cage doors are left open allowing them to exit and enter freely at their Own Accord.

Also for the record, "Circus Madness" and "Zoochosis" are not recognised terms. "Stereotypy" is the term given to abnormal behaviors. Abnormal Behaviours which can be seen in the majority of all captive animals. Do any of your animal friends own horses? Maybe they have noticed their horses whinnying loudly and randomly, kicking the stable door, eating and chewing their bridles? All stereotypical actions of captive animals, so therefore just as cruel to own a Horse as it is to own a Tiger/Lion !!

Kreki, you seem to have a massive amount of knowledge about this circus and what goes on behind the scenes.
It's obvious you are fighting for the very survival of the 'circus' as we know it. Nothing wrong with that and I actually feel sympathy for the circus owner (whoever it is) and the families of the circus, it must be a devastating blow for everyone, once the star attractions are pulled from the show.
Unfortunately, the previous members of the circuses have given a bad name. Two of the Chipperfield's family were fined in the past, for animal cruelty and the public have long memories. Therefore the public cannot be blamed for defending the animals from such cruelty or bad conditions.
Is that a fair case or not and do you think we should disregard animal cruelty in the hope it doesn't happen again?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2230913.stm

One more thing. The Government gave a license for Welfare of Animals in Travelling Circuses, but as I understand it the local council should also provide a licence for 'Performing Animals' Either this Government link has it wrong or someone else has. There is no mention of the circus having to be on council land.
https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...ages/wild-animals-in-travelling-circuses

"evidence" gathered by the ADI or CAPS holds no credibility with me, they a renowned for misquoting, manipulating images and videos and misinterpretation to suit their agenda. I have no problem with people disliking animal circuses, if their opinion is based on true facts and things they have seen with their own eyes, not on the propaganda that ADI and CAPS project. It is also the protest that I object to, seems very victorian to me, 'quick villagers! here is something we don't like, grab your pitchforks and burning torches and let's get an angry mob together to run them out of town'

As for retired animals, as part of the new regulations, all circus animals must have a retirement plan, most of the time this does not include going to a zoo, because most zoo's are a member of the organisations BIAZA and/or EAZA which forbids the transfers of animals between a member and a non member, and the circus is not a member, also space in zoo's is tight and reserved for animals important in the breeding program, I'm not saying this doesn't happen, Martin Lacey of the great British circus sent animals to noahs ark zoo and west midlands safari park sent some of their animals into the circus.

Far from it! My intentions cannot be that obvious, as I have no affiliation with the circus whatsoever. I merely take offence to others trying to force their views on innocent public members due to boredom, when the majority of them are seemingly uneducated on the matter at hand. Especially when something as innocent as a family going to the circus, is rudely interrupted and criminalised by a small group of protesters, who then happen to not enforce those same views in other areas of society where supposed "Cruelty" is clear as day. What when the Circus finally packs up and leaves, what then? Do the protesters then pat each other on the back, say "Well done Gang!" and carry on with their mundane lives cutting their grass and feeding their own captive animals, or do they continue to fight other branches of animal welfare around the UK.

Out of interest, if say a family member of yours turned out to be a Child Molester of which you had No knowledge of until the guilty party was tried and sentenced. Would it be fair to tarnish you and the rest of your family with the same brush? So in answer to your question, no it is not a fair case unless there is ACTUAL PROOF of animal Cruelty. Innocent before proven guilty maybe?

Go along tonight and ask them?!

Granny- the circus in Saughall Massey is on privately owned land not council land.

In response, that is a most bizarre comment. Do you not protect your children at all times ?
No need to reply.....as I am now offline for holidays. Good luck with your venture, it obviously carries no weight around here.

Using Mary Chipperfields conviction to try and discredit Thomas Chipperfield is just wrong, that's like taking a taxi drivers license away because a distant relative was convicted of death by dangerous driving 15 years ago. Plus training methods and living conditions for circus animals have evolved a lot since then anyway.

Granny , I will reply. Simply to state that you have failed to bring anything constructive to this discussion in my eyes. And there is clearly an equal support on here for both camps. Every time I raise a point however, you seem to palm it off. An immature way to go about internet discussions, but I will wish you a happy holiday! All the best.

I see you have a very poor view of the people of Wirral," innocent members of the public", uneducated at the matter in hand, families criminalised, Wirral people denigrated by you for speaking out, I didn't see any burning torches nor gangs with pitchforks to deter the criminalised uneducated families from attending.

I cannot resist
My reply to you is:

We are not to take any notice of protestors, but more importantly according to Waddi and Kreki neither are we to listen to reports by CAPS, ADI, reported cases of animal cruelty in circuses, brought to account by the courts and judges of the land.
According to Waddi, only DEFRA who are the Governmental body and they state they want wild animals in circuses banned..........

Of course we must take notice Waddi and Kreki whose opinions happen to be paramount and also happen to be the experts on this issue.Maybe you would be better engaged in lobbying the Government asking them to drop the intended ban.

I've put forward my case Kreki for being against, no need to keep repeating myself.Your case doesn't even hold water.

I will have a nice holiday thank you, might even visit a zoo !

Actually Casper, the only Denigration Ive seen on this thread is aimed at the likes Waddi and myself. Simply because we have different views to you and are standing up for the circus? Its almost like its turning into an "MP Discussion" aka Playground arguement in suits. Also, twisting my words (or maybe you didnt understand my post correctly) doesnt help in this situation. The uneducated I refer to are the Protesters, some of the supposed "Truths" spread on here, Journalists who are trying to manipulate everyone to share their views and opinions, but so far without a single degree of proof to what they are saying. Hear say maybe, and chinese whispers! But no actual evidence.




That was a quick Holiday Granny. Hope the weather was nice?
Experts? Never claimed to be.
Not listening to biased groups and reports with no actual hard evidence of cruelty, just speculation? Yes, hold my hands up to that.

My case doesnt hold water? You may like to think that, hope and dream. But unfortunately, my posts have had more educational integrity and evidence of the animals NOT being mistreated. Just because somebody disagrees with you, doesn't necesarilly mean they are wrong. Something you may need to accept. I wouldnt want you to keep repeating yourself though, as that would get pretty boring. But if you have nothing else to bring to the table to further your case, then I can accept that.

In all seriousness though, please do enjoy your holiday. And enjoy your Hypocritical support of the Zoo you may or may not visit, especially if abroad where animal welfare is substantially lacklustre compared to our own x

The imposed ban that was set to come into force at the end of 2015 has been dropped, note it was not included in the Queens speech.

What evidence would you like to see? Live animals are carted around the country in boxes and brought out once or twice a day to perform degrading, humiliating and un-natural acts in front of people- was going to say 'crowds' but that is not true. That is enough reason alone to say no no no without even bringing in the other arguments about the animals welfare.

Animals in circuses is out dated and un-necessary.Sooner it is outlawed the better.

How do you know the protesters are uneducated? you talk about forming opinions and views, yet are happy to put the views of others down as supposed truths or lies and propaganda.

Bit of an overstatement. Brought out of their boxes once or twice a day? Have you been to Mr Jollies and had a closeup look of the facilities? Maybe you should go and spend a day there and see how they are treated and handled through an entire day. Im pretty sure they receive more exercise than you or I do.



"Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position. Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented".

Go and read back through the entire thread as a neutral party, and tell me which side of the argument has used Carefully Selected Facts to try and rally their cause and produce the "emotional rather than rational response to the information presented"

Just going off topic for a moment, in regards to the claim that the majority of the UK population is against animals in the circus, is this the same as the majority of the UK population was against keeping dolphins in captivity, so all the UK dolphins went over seas, well done people, the dolphins are still in captivity but out of sight out of mind, but it obviously wasn't the majority of the population that was against it, because there are dolphinariums abroad that thrive on British tourism.

[youtube]5hfYJsQAhl0[/youtube]
Animals in circus should be banned full stop, And any one that thinks different, should be locked in the same cage as the animal, that's my opinion, or am I going to get a verbal bullying now for having my say. How anybody can say animals in circus is good, and any body that does say it should make a urgent appointment with your doctor to be referred to hospital for a urgent brain scan as you must be brain damaged.

Good troll Willo!

Read back through the thread if you havent already, and read the points raised. Simply turning up and adding a pointless addition to the topic whilst trying to make it personal, really doesnt help the situation and isnt acceptable... Especially when I do actually have family members who are Brain Damaged. Good one!

Willo, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to be abusive and aggressive to those who hold a different view. You'll find that it usually doesn't help in bringing someone to see any statement you make as credible.

Wikiwirral rules

Personally offended by a Members Comment
If another user has made a comment you find personally offensive we ask you take it up with them on a personal level. All accounts involved in Personal issues will have there access removed for a minimum of 7 days if the dispute escalates to the public forum. We do not tell you how to live your physical life so don't expect us to police it.

I trust you will now receive a 7 day ban as per the rules set out by Mark?

I can turn up in any post I want and add a comment, and no where in that post is it made personal to you, it is my opinion and I am entitle to it.

Rules do not state this.

Re-read them,
If another user has made a comment you find personally offensive we ask you take it up with them on a personal level. Feel free to pm me and let me know how i have offended you or made it personal to you, as rules state keep it of the forum.

All accounts involved in Personal issues will have there access removed for a minimum of 7 days if the dispute escalates to the public forum.

This has not happened, like i say it's my opinion and it's not personal to any one

abusive and aggressive please enlighten me and point out where i have been abusive and aggressive

You can yes, beauty of the internet. But your post did nothing except maybe add to your overall post score. Oh, and go off topic somewhat.

Your post and opinion still offend me, as obviously you find Brain Damage amusing enough to use it as an insult. A similar vain to using the term "Gay" as an insult, we live in a modern age now where differences are to be accepted and honored, not jeered and made fun of. Hopefully you will never have to endure the emotional strains and struggles of having to care for a Brain Damaged family member.

I'd be ashamed...

Thanks for your pm, I will respond to it

The parts underlined and in bold are the parts that in my opinion are offensive and aggressive.

Ok, let's see what marks opinion is on it. Have a good day

I'm not reporting you to Mark so he'll have no reason to get involved.

show me evidence from the circus is question that would lead to a conviction of animal cruelty. From what I've seen with my own eyes, the living conditions are above regulation, the animals health is top notch, they show no signs of distress, the training methods in use are positive reinforcement, you can't, and neither can ADI or CAPS, but that doesn't stop them from trying to present what "evidence" they have gathered as animal cruelty. I can accept that some people have the opinion that these practices are cruel, but my opinion and the scientific fact is that they aren't. But the ADI and CAPS try to present their opinion of animal cruelty as fact which it isn't, its opinion. But a Placard at a protest saying "This circus operates above the regulation standards set by DEFRA and has been audited numerous times by vets, who say the animals are in good health but I still think its cruel" doesn't have the same effect does it.


Yes, DEFRA does want to ban introduced, based on their opinion or based on that is what they think the majority of the population wants, I dont know. but the government can't find any scientific evidence to support a ban.

This is all opinion.

But in the same proposed bill they also say;
This is Fact


I don't recall to ever claim to be an expert on the issue, and if I did I retract it, I was a Zoo Keeper, a professional in the field of keeping wild animals in captivity but not an expert.


No need to, The queen seems to be doing that nicely all by herself Click here

Stereotypical -- Quote waddi " Abnormal Behaviours which can be seen in the majority of all captive animals. Do any of your animal friends own horses? Maybe they have noticed their horses whinnying loudly and randomly, kicking the stable door, eating and chewing their bridles? All stereotypical actions of captive animals, so therefore just as cruel to own a Horse as it is to own a Tiger/Lion !!"

So at least you admit seeing the stereotypical behaviour .As to that sort of behaviour in 'pet' animals , Id also be concerned about that , something would not be right with the conditions and or environment and Id not personally find it acceptable and would make criticisms of it . Stress is stress whoever the animal belongs to . Private owners have no more right to inflict it than a circus or zoo as I see it .

As for the Queens speech. heres a Cameron quote.

“While the recent Queen’s Speech did not contain the Government’s proposed Wild Animals in Circuses Bill, let me reassure you that it remains our position that the use of wild animal acts in travelling circuses is an outdated practice and that we will introduce a ban as soon as Parliamentary time allows”.


Think Ive said all I want to say on this subject now. Im out as they say in Dragons den. An interesting discussion, thanks to all participants.We'll always have clashes on here because we're all different, but its great to share opinions and try and convert each other with only virtual blood up the walls .

If you read the reason why the ban was omitted, you may understand a bit better, the Queen hasn't omitted anything, it was omitted on advice from the PM's advisor, as being peripheral to the main government business, as to your argument about the dolphins, two wrongs don't make a right.

Notifyed for bringing a personal dispute onto the public forum. Private Messages are supposed to be just that- private.

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I never said that.



So a high Priority then? Must be really needed.

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...dium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

The protesters have their say.

The protesters always have their say, whether it factual or not, that's the problem.

Apologies Waddi, it was of course Kreki . Slip of the brain!

Waddi, even the BVA wants the practice banned.

quote :“We strongly support a ban of wild animals in travelling circuses and would like to see all administrations in the United Kingdom ban this unethical practice "

http://www.bva.co.uk/news/3716.aspx

They can't all be wrong.

I understand you have been involved with zoo's etc. but the wild animals in zoo's are not performing tricks or being trained for such purposes. That, I think is one of the most predominant reasons for protests. It is certainly the reason for which I oppose the practice, whether they have been bred in captivity or not. Animals performing , is something that I find tear jerking.
We all get a bit heated in these discussions, and no hard feelings meant, I am sure you know much more than the rest of us on here but the authorities are the ones we are more likely to listen to for obvious reasons.

So its the training of the animals to perform a certain task that you disagree with?

Like I've said all along everybody is entitled to an opinion and I will accept that that is their opinion, even if it differs to mine, as long as opinion that based on fact.

They do perform tasks, or tricks as you call them, that is fact, they are trained using positive reinforcement, a small meat treat as a reward, no negative reinforcement is used, no beatings, no whips, yes they do use 2 sticks known as guiders but these are not used to hurt the animal in any way, a slight tickle behind the ear to trigger a certain reaction, yes, but nothing like hitting, poking or prodding the animal. That is the facts surrounding training the big cats in this circus.

If your opinion is based on these facts then I will respect your opinion but politely disagree with you.

http://youtu.be/u53NmuX7I-I

All I see here is a lot of people being entertained and amused by
a happy healthy dog, and 2 very proud trainers.
do I think It's cruel, unethical or even tear jerking.

I could watch it over and over.

LOL. What has Crufts got to do with Jollys circus? (Only read the description and not watched the video)

In the video that you cant be bothered watching is a trained dog sitting on its hind quarters maybe in a lot of pain as the dog then puts its paws over his sad tearful eyes. Do not train animals its so cruel....

Thanks for saving me wasting some data.

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flipping trainer doing naughty things to animals again.

I suppose a dancing dog "performing" the Gangnam Style is totally acceptable? Judging by the clapping and cheering of the crowd and success in these talent shows? Any protests about that?

[youtube]R_hbTj-Bj4Y[/youtube]

Tut...tut. Llama on a lead yesterday with Circus Folk handing out discount leaflets in New Brighton....Kinda contradicts the 'Popular Demand' angle

coca cola advertise don't they?

Our dog does that all the time, although they aren't "tearful" eyes . He wasn't trained to do it. If it hurt, he wouldn't do it, as he is a complete wuss too.

That dog is happy! Bouncing around at the owners when they finish. Look at the tail, wagging and up.

Stop trying to add a sob story to something that isn't there, to get some impact.



What a ridiculous sweeping statement!

Guide dogs, DFD dogs, Hearing dogs, Rescue dogs (in their various forms from water rescue, mountain rescue to earthquake rescue, etc), Police dogs, Bomb snifing dogs, Hospital 'pat' dogs, etc, etc. Even just plain old toilet training and behavior training. All cruel eh?

Keep in mind most dogs like the training, as it keeps their mind occupied and healthy, and they think they are playing.

If an animal wants to train and do the activities, and the training is done in the right way, then I have no problems with that. If it doesn't then then it should not be forced (most circus animals I would think).

And no, I do not agree with circuses, because of their forced training practices, and the whole wild animals captive thing.

I'm loving this topic ... If people want to go the circus so what its not everyone's taste but wish the tree huggers would leave off cause at the end of the day always got something to say ie smoking let's get it banned ok we quit now ecigs let's moan about that too ha joke ... Let's see hmmm oh yeh we all as humans have become trained to do as were told too ie go to work to live pay taxes follow suit and the other half moan and never pay tax don't work don't work a day in their lives have lots of holidays and houses too big for them and loadd of hard working taxes paying for it all yet seem to think they have a right to have a moan at everything all the time get a life get a job ... Getting back on the circus ha whatever takes your fancy ...if you wear diamonds you kill children if you wear fur you kill animals yet if you breath too much you kill us all ha ....

I was being my usual sarcastic self, obviously it went over your head

[youtube]kJqziTVLNoo[/youtube]

Or you overestimated the attention that people give to your posts?! Just an observation. Good night.

Obviously I did, could that be because I don't know you and your "usual sarcastic self"?

With no vocal inflection, or facial expressions to note, it is a little hard to differentiate between someones tedious sarcasm, and genuine comments on an internet post.

So unless someone were to know you personally, or read your constant follow-up/backpedaling "I was being sarcastic really, DUR!" type posts, how would anyone know you were being sarcastic?

Perhaps add "/sarc" or similar to help us lesser people out, eh?

Perhaps read the entire topic and you would see I`m all for the circus. You could read it in instalments if its too long for you.

Zipper- behave yourself. No need for that. Just accept that people do not follow all of your posts.

Yea, think I`ll desist from posting.

Well that is your choice/ decision.No need though.

haven't you realised yet that 90% of people only read the first post before hitting reply

David Cameron has promised a Government commitment to ban wild animals such as lions, tigers and elephants in circuses will be made law - despite the fact that it was left out of the Queen's Speech.

In a letter to the charity Animal Defenders International (ADI), the Prime Minister has written: "Let me reassure you that it remains our position that the use of wild animal acts in travelling circuses is an outdated practice and that we will introduce a ban as soon as Parliamentary time allows."

Campaigners thought the policy had been dropped because there is so little time now to bring the legislation forward before the next election.

The ban has been supported by a long list of celebrity campaigners including Eddie Izzard, Ricky Gervais, Julian Clary, Moby, the actors Dominic West and Judi Dench, as well as Stanley Johnson, the former MEP and conservationist.

Animal Defenders International footage of a tiger being trained
Animal Defenders International has previously captured footage of cruelty
Mr Johnson told Sky News that it was intolerable to use the animals in circus acts and he was deeply disappointed that the policy was not included in June's list of bills announced by the Queen.

He is publishing the second volume of his memoirs next month and includes a picture of himself meeting the Prime Minister, alongside Peter Tatchell in April this year.

Its caption reads: "Prime Minister David Cameron promises us that the government will ban the use of wild animals in circuses. We are still waiting!"

A letter from David Cameron with a promise to Animal Defenders International
David Cameron's letter to Animal Defenders International
Mr Johnson's sons include Boris - the London mayor - and Jo - a Tory minister who runs Mr Cameron's policy unit.

Because there is so little Parliamentary time left, it could be possible that the Prime Minister backs a 10-minute rule bill being brought on September 3 by Labour backbencher Jim Fitzpatrick.

He says it is simply cruel for animals to be transported in small cages around the country and not given the space to roam freely.

The ADI charity has also uncovered cases of abuse in the past with elephants, camels and tigers being beaten with sticks.

David Cameron and Stanley Johnson
Stanley Johnson says David Cameron promised a ban on wild circus animals
Fleur Dawes from the charity said that even if that was not happening the circus life was in itself enough to cause suffering for animals.

There are only two circuses left in Britain that still have wild animals, including tigers, lions, zebras, snakes, reindeer, raccoons, foxes, camels and an Ankole.

One - called Peter Jolly's Circus - is operating in Buckley, near Chester, and has attracted protesters.

Both refused to give a statement to Sky News but have argued that they care for the welfare of the animals and are subject to regular checks by the Government - brought in after abuse was highlighted in other circuses that have since closed.

Ricky Gervais
Ricky Gervais is one of the famous faces supporting a ban
A spokeswoman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said: "We are committed to banning the use of wild animals in circuses and will introduce legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.

"As we work towards a ban we have a strict system in place to ensure the welfare of all 23 circus animals in England.

"This includes announced and unannounced inspections, care plans for every animal, regular veterinary inspections and a retirement plan for each animal."

Ive been off this topic for a while and it makes me laugh how posters like "waddi" sing the praises of yet another useless and corrupt gov dept as defra
These are the numbnuts who when confronted with 90 per cent proof of slaughter house cruelty found out by animal aid just say " we dont agree but cant actually do anything" as filming was under trespass.
I recently watched house of commons review board made them squirm but not admit to 90 million quids worth of taxpayer waste of money on contracts never full filled
Defra are useless scumbags like all "regulators" under "cuts" in this weak weak country

I do a radical thing in life , i think beyond myself,would i want to be in a cage ? Poked by idiots to do tricks?
No
Just cause theyre animals we think they are lower mentally and its ok
"They like it " what utter tosh
Have you asked them???
The idiot human race will always justify what they want in their own interest
The whole reason they cant run free is due to us in the long run
We kill things for fun . We kill for meaningless religion . Humans are inherently evil not animals

One of the many hatful things about the uk is we have regulators that are in fact completely useless and money wasting
Their funding is often inherently biased
This is why its so easy to get away with crime .rip offs. corruption. Cruelty. Robbing taxpayers etc etc
We are weak

Its irony that people bleat on about this 'great'country
We cant even look after our old and vunerable young,what hope do animals have? Really.
In animal lover uk you can beat and burn pigs,throw cats in the river,keep dogs in terrible conditions,starve them,leave em in cars dying,cuts chickens heads off live,allow non stun halal, leave animals locked in empty houses to die,make them aggressive so they eat kids or elderly live ....etc etc etc
It goes to court nowt really happens....slap on the wrist at best
So dont say defra are powerful in any way at all
Circus us probably looked at maybe once a year if that

Look at the state of this letter. Blatently written by one of the circus people, imho.

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/yoursa...cus_animals_happy_to_be_there/?cmpid=cmt

A passionate and compassionate post svenlock , and your observations are painfully correct . Its totally frustrating that improvements in both people and animal welfare move so slowly (when they are moving at all). Some people arent concerned about beings different from themselves , and most of the ones that are, get burned out by the seeming futility of emotional expenditure in trying to change what is a selfish cruel world.

You just want to complain about anything which doesn't support your view. You haven't any evidence to support your supposition.

Apart from the ability to see through what is clearly fake. The woman was REALLY worried, REALLY concerned about the animals but went ahead anyway. She run the gauntlet of protestors shouting at her- untrue- the police for one would not have allowed that 'with her head down' but the fabricated incident did not seem to affect the over-excited child. Once inside, everything is wonderful and hunky-dory..... tried too hard with the adjectives used too. Nah, not buying it.

Unfortunately ChrisKay, this is the view and actions taken by ALL who oppose the Circus and its running.

And ALL the replies/comments on the Wirral Globe website seem to be posted by the majority of the Protestors themselves. They also end up liking all their own comments (all 6-7 of the posters) to try and give their "Arguement" a stronger more supported feel.

Its akin to Playground Bullying. Such a shame....

Frazer Watsons comments here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1427146457525574/

Second person down to comment.

Ahhh.. so they're not allowed to defend themselves against overly biased groups of people ganging up against them on the internet and using similar tactics first?

Anyway, Im sure it doesnt matter anymore. They have moved on to their next location. Unless all the Wirral Protesters followed them down the road to protest (which I Highly doubt),everyone can go back to finding other things to complain about. The Wallasey Motor Club with their annual Promenade Rally stages next I assume?

Frazer made his on the 27th July.

And the Protesters Negative comments and voting on the page first started on Wednesday 23rd July at 7.34PM

Anyway, as asked, has anybody from the "Wirral Protester Clan" actually travelled the short distance to Buckley to continue the protests, or is that it now.....?

Some have, yes but in general these things work a bit like a Relay Race- the Baton gets passed from one town to the next and so on and so forth.

Omg, I agree with Chris :-)) next I`ll be studying grammar lol