according to recent news it has been brought to the publics attention that the mersey ferry is not making any profit and looks to the tunnel toll fee pot for a handout. I have not mentioned this subject as I thought someone else may have. I am shocked that this has been over looked.

before the tunnels were built we had a ferry system that operated with precision & skill. The ferry provided services that would take you further than the current ones.

I expect a proportion of the mersey tunnels profits to be handed back to mersey ferries. the opening of two tunnels has robbed the wirral region dearly and still does to the present day. if both tunnels closed, the ferry would make profit.

I would also like mersey ferries to reinstate & create services that would cover most of the wirral region, and maybe some parts of north wales.

this may seem a little far fetched however the isle of mann steam packet company sails past most of north wales on the liverpool to dublin crossing without making a single stop.

in my opinion more money should leave the mersey tunnel pot to compensate for the robbery of the wirral region. this would contribute towards rebuilding old ferry terminals & landing stages and creating new ones.

I view the ferries as an important ingredient for our economy as a whole and think the time has come to look more in depth at mersey tunnels accounts to establish how those profits are spent.

Hard to understand why this is under the heading of 'Wirral Robbery', almost missed it.
If Mersey Ferries are making an annual loss of £1 million, (how many years is that relating to) The terminal at Pier Head cost £millions not so very long ago, they seemed to be able to manage that. The improvements at Woodside have also cost a fair fortune. The re-vamp and Spaceport at Seacombe was no cheap deal. So if the passengers do not use the Ferries, what can Mersey Travel do? Re-building old ferry terminals is not an option I shouldn't think if they haven't got the money now anyway.
What stands out to me, is the strange time to make this anouncement. Somehow, my thoughts turn to the possibility that Mersey Travel are putting out 'feelers' to get reaction and I believe, that the Ferries will be sold off to a private company, which could well be Peel Holdings or alternatively, a French company.
You may think it's a mad idea but the Ferries have made big losses for donkey's years and maybe we should be asking why?

A hell of a lot of people were turned away yesterday at Seacombe and I'm guessing Woodside too between 12pm and 3.30pm because of pre-booked cruises..(they had 2 boats for this)Why they couldn't of used the other ferry as a direct service even for an hour before the the tall ships left I don't know? Would of made quite a bit of money..there were a lot of disgruntled people including families trying to get over to Liverpool yesterday.

That's one good example nidgynoo. Possibly the third boat may have been in dock, without a full crew. Things not being thought through properly but I could be wrong.

It's called incompetent management. They're overloaded with management staff who don't have the drive or ability to realise the potential of what they've got.
The money wasted on the U-Boat should have been used for something worthwhile, not to mention the eyesore at the Pier Head.

Bob.

not suprised they are losing money the prices they charge. £4.70 from woodside to liverpool, it's £1.50 through the tunnel or £2.30 on the train (talk about pricing yourself out of business).

Yes, ridiculous price. £4.70 gets you an all areas Saveaway which includes buses and trains as well, and as many trips on the ferry as you want.

the refurb at pier head was needed in order to become a port of call & boost the tourism industry. several areas in wirral have the potential to reap the rewards of the mersey and its tourism industry that the council spends alot of money on promoting. I know what beach I would rather park my deck chair on & I think the wirral region is well placed to take advantage of this. if holidaymakers, tourists & visitors to liverpool had easy accessible, available services and usable routes to use wirral facilities then the increased need for local services & facilities within local communities could increase further by demand. this could lead to the creation of work for local people who are unemployed. its seems a little strange that we are almost encircled by an outstanding coastline that is not utilised to the full potential & compared to liverpool, it appears that we are being shortchanged, not just in services we rely on from mersey ferries, but also lack of investment, services and support from the council for an industry that it so heavily promotes to capture a worldwide audience as a top ten tourist destination to stay & visit in europe.

I personally think that at least half of mersey tunnels profits should be used to support the river mersey services and facilities. I view the provisions and services of such facilities were they exsist as an important ingredient for any economy. ferries play an important role in delivering service end users to the hidden destinations.

the mersey ferry losses of a milliion pounds as recently reported is in need for one urgent thing, and that is change. the turnover is to low and the overheads are to high which has caused this huge profit loss but this would have been known six months ago.

most tourists & visitors to liverpool will go on a ferry but dont get to see beyond seacombe & woodside unless they are staying for a couple of days & manage to navigate the route via bus or train. the wirral wind has as much to offer as liverpool and its a shame some tourists & visitors dont get the chance to visit, explore, stay & shop in wirral.

The refurb at the Pier Head merely required a ticket office , shop & cafe which could have been incorporated into a single-storey building, designed to be in keeping with its surroundings & not the monstrosity that they built.

Bob.

You make some good points but I think you're wrong on that one. First rule of economics is pay off your debts. Mersey Tunnel's profits should go to pay off their debts as number 1 priority long before they start getting milked further as a cash cow by the ferries!

I understand the importance of public transport, and to some extend the subsidies afforded it but that should come from general taxation. It's not fair to expect drivers using a certain route every day to bankroll your ferries.

The point is, I think you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who rely on the Mersey ferries today. I can still remember when it was a major commuter service, with a ferry from Woodside every ten minutes, and a fare of 2d. (old money).

Chris, judging by the Seacombe Ferry carpark i think that the shuttle service, at peak times is still well used.

However, how popular is the Cruise during term time week? Hmmm.

Blimey Chris! Was that two, old one penny coins,the ones with Britannia on the reverse side and equivilent to 5p in 2012?

The following is taken from Wikipedia to give an idea of pasenger numbers 40 years ago.

"Compounded with the opening of the Kingsway road tunnel on 28 June 1971 and a further decline in passenger numbers (only 4,000-5,000 a day), the future of the service was uncertain. It was sentimental, rather than economical grounds which resulted in the retention of the ferries, after much public protest to keep them". ......
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The difficulty, or one of them I believe is the Woodside Terminal. The fact that our dear King Edward III granted the Royal Charter back in 1330, the ferry service has to be run from Woodside by law. I think they may well try to get that overturned. Woodside probably makes less money than either of the other two terminals. Seacombe has free parking, due to the fact they received funding for the car park and therefore cannot charge.They can charge at Woodside, so it makes all things more expensive to cross the river but the employees of the CSA used to take up many of the car parking spaces and maybe still do. Years ago ,Mersey Travel for some unknown reason ,finished the service of the little electric buses to the ferry from the centre of the town.
They also finihed the morning commuter service to cut costs but they still have to keep Woodside going.If they didn't , I believe that the terminal would have been closed long before now.
The shop and cafe at Liverpool Pier Head I believe are franchised, as is the cafe at Woodside.
Now reducing the possiblity of passengers, then the last option is to reduce services even more. I for one am quite convinced this has all been well thought out and manipulated over a number of years.Otherwise it would seem there are a load of plonkers sitting in high positions.
It makes me very cross when (I think I've mentioned before)WMBC was granted £10million between 1999 and 2004 to be spent on Birkenhead Tourism. So, what did they do with it and why hasn't it worked for the town and the ferry? It's not even 10 years ago.

Yo Alex, it is not generally possible to rob Peter to pay Paul , although under ownership and management of Mersey Travel, the tunnels and ferries are two different companies.

repaying any debt should remain at the top of any business agenda & I personally think mersey tunnels should use one quarter of the other half of its profit pot to repay this debt, leaving a remaining quarter to cover the operational costs.

according to the recent publication a longstanding agreement requires mersey tunnels to subsidise mersey failing ferrys & always will.

I think we of wirral should ensure that wirral gets the most out of mersey ferries as we are funding the failing ferry.

I also think we of wirral should ensure that mersey failing ferries is managed & operated in a manner that fairly distributes an industry income stream to the hidden destinations.

failing ferry or no failing ferry is open for debate. if we have no ferry what will we have instead? will half or any of the mersey tunnels profit pot we as a region pay into be invested in wirral?

we of wirral deserve a little more and should demand a little more.

Well Yo Alex, I would suggest you either make an appointment with Frank Field or get your concerns and ideas published in our local press, because none of us on Wikiwirral can do anything about it.We can post our thoughts but so far as ideas are concerned, you are obviously the one who can see a future for the ferries in so many different ways. I personally can't see much improvement from the said situation, unless outside companies come into play.
Maybe the council will sell another asset, the Priory, to which the Royal Charter was granted, then it wouldn't be the responsibility of Mersey Travel to keep Woodide Ferry operating.
Maybe action should start now to protect it, rather than waiting until the possible dreaded dead is done. No good shouting when it's too late. If anyone knows what might be on the agenda it's Frank Field
B the way, where are the hidden destinations?
There was a Tour Bus operated a few years back, which was a miserable failure. It could have gone to the 'hidden destinations' such as Brimstage, Wirral Country Park, West Kirby Parkgate, Ness Gardens for example, but no, it did a picturesque tour of the A41 past CammelLairds and so on. More wasted money.

Ferries

Mersey Ferries, which are owned and operated by Merseytravel, have been totally repositioned to become the region's most popular paid-for tourist attraction as well as a convenient way to cross the Mersey.
Merseytravel has completed the multi-million pound refurbishment of all three ferries and is developing all three ferry terminals.
Merseytravel operates the Mersey Ferries running a daily commuter service across the River Mersey as well as very successful tourist cruises and attractions at the terminals, including the £10million 'Spaceport', the UK's latest space-themed attraction.
All records for passengers on the popular Manchester Ship Canal Cruises continue to be broken.
Construction of a new £10 million Pier Head Ferry Terminal which will enhance the face of Merseyside's famous waterfront and lead the Mersey Ferries into the future, will be completed in 2009.
The historic U-Boat Story exhibition will open in 2009, explaining the link between the Ferries and historic underwater warfare. The exhibition will show memorabilia from the boat including the famous Enigma machines.


What has gone wrong? They also bought The Beatles Story for a few £Million

if it costs £4.70 then why was two adults and one child charged £20 to cross from seacombe to liverpool, we were given a family ticket and challenged the price to be told it would cost more to pay separately and we didnt pay for a cruise!! needless to say next time we'll get savaways or go by train so maybe thats why their losing money if there ripping people off

Yes, Granny, them's the ones; I'm afraid your calculations are way off; you're clearly not old enough.
There were 240 of those pennies to the pound, so one was worth 0.4166 of today's penny. 5p. was a shilling, or 12 pennies.

£4.70 is one way I think. Two adults and a child would indeed come to near £20 return.

The question is, what do Mersey Ferries want to be? A commuter service or a leisure cruise service? At the moment it's trying to do both and not doing either very well judging by the hole in its accounts.

As a commuter service, it's not time competitive - at least from Woodside. Apart from the occasional summers day when Joe Public decides it might make a nice change to sail into Liverpool for work/shopping rather than get the train (as I have done myself). But you can't build a sound business model on that. For commuters and day trippers they'd have more luck running it from New Brighton as it's a more direct route than the train.

As a leisure service you have to look at where the terminals are. For tourists and day trippers cruising from Liverpool, is there that much in Woodside and Seacombe to attract them to get off the boat? Maybe tickets need to also be sold in conjunction with admission to some other attraction too? Maybe tickets should be exchangeable with the trains i.e. get the ferry out and the train back. That might get more people going at least one way on the ferry.

If they want to subsidise it then fine, it's a very historic service around these parts and I would hate to see it go. Maybe stick a tax on hotel rooms and let the tourists pay for it!

I've now dug out my copy of the ferry timetable and I can now see that the morning and evening direct services form Seacombe are very good; every twenty minutes in the morning and every half hour in the evening. I wonder why the trip takes ten minutes in the a.m. and fifteen in the p.m. Nothing from Woodside in the morning though.
A little background info. might be interesting. Originally there was no such thing as Mersey Ferries; the ferries were owned by the Corporation of Birkenhead for the Woodside one and by Wallasey Corporation for the Seacombe one.
When the first (Queensway) road tunnel was planned, there was going to be a branch to Wallasey, but in the end the Wallasey ratepayers voted no, as did the ratepayers of Bootle, who were also involved. In the end, it was financed by a combination of the ratepayers of Birkenhead, Liverpool and Wallasey, with a contribution from the Government. The tolls were only to last until the debt was paid off (LOL).
The loss of revenue to the ferries was taken into account in the costings but this was notional only, since Birkenhead Corporation got a share of the tolls. Of course, the number of foot passengers on the ferries should not have been affected, unlike when the Mersey Railway opened, since there was no bus service through the tunnel at the time.
I've attached the ferry timetable and an extract from the book "The Story of the Mersey Tunnel", published by the Mersey Tunnel Joint Committee, which shows costings, and a comparison of value from the site www.measuringworth.com to show today's values.

£2.60 return... where are you getting your prices from?

The actual River Cruise which is more than just a way of getting over to town and back would come to £20.50 for 2x adult and 1x child (2x£8 + £4.50) which is the same price as the family ticket (2x adults and 3x kids).

It certainly is not £4.70 one way at any time of the day - £4 return for the PM direct service is the most you will pay but if you're commuting to work... £2.60 return.

For the avoidance of doubt, here's the current fares.
I've just phoned Mersey Ferries and they confirm that if I want to go from Liverpool to Seacombe/Birkenhead at, say, 2 p.m. then that's a cruise and it is indeed £4.70 single. Of course, if you wait till 4.10 p.m. the price drops to £3 single.

The River Explorer is a sight seeing trip...

We're comparing apples with bananas here.

Yes, I'm aware of the difference, all I'm doing is pointing out that your statement:
"It certainly is not £4.70 one way at any time of the day"
is factually incorrect.

When Woodside was the main bus terminal you could get a bus from almost anywhere on the Wirral, including Crosville, to the terminus and get the ferry over the water. I wouldn't even know what buses you could get down there now, or anywhere else in town for that matter. It strikes me as a bag of nails compared to the old way when Woodside was the hub. Maybe it's just me getting older and being away for so long but I don't think the new passenger network is a patch on the old one.

+1
Also, there was a proper railway station there. These days it's deserted; sad. However, I've been exploring the bus system recently and I'm quite impressed with what I've found so far.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Ferry

I have provided a link to help those that do not understand the wirral robbery.

in my opinion merseytravel is contributing towards the containment of income streams & actually does the local council a favour by containing the tourists & visitors within a certain area like cattle.

I dont know what the answer is but I do think merseytravel should sack those responsible and explore alternative measures to install a new life into the failing ferry.

the failing ferry does three stops & the refurb costs begs belief. not one of these 3 terminals look as though they have had the amounts of money spent on them as the recent publication claimed.

steering away from its usual business activities was always going to be risky. you or I could or would only take such a big risk if we were sure we would be subsidised for any shortfall by an invisible hand. in my opinion merseytravel will continue to collude with the council to contain the income streams of its tourism industry it spends so heavily on promoting in order to be favoured & supported by the invisible hand.

I get the impression that the council & merseytravel do not want tourists & visitors to see beyond seacombe & woodside in case tourists & visitors decided to stay & spend money in a capital of class in wirral instead of the capital of vulture in liverpool. that is why the historic tram & the terminal at new brighton was removed, to stop attracting tourism away from the containment area.

I am also of the opinion that alot more looms behind the scene, the more you read of this subject, your thoughts are steered to suspect back handers & wrongdoing. this is no different to robbery.

as merseytravel have demonstrated the inability to operate & provide suitable services & provisions that reflect the needs of our communities I personally think it may be worth examining the possibility of leasing the failing ferry operation to a tour operator that can see past seacombe & woodside.

I also view the mersey/wirral ferries as a one. although it is not operated as one, it should be operated as one, from woodside.

if you look at the time table and the prices of the cost of going from woodside to liverpool is as follows....

adult single..£4.70 as they dont offer the cheaper £2.10 morning direct service from woodside(only from seacombe). it stays at £4.70 untill 16.35 when you can get a cheaper direct service ticket for £3.00 single or £4.00 return.

as for the "river explorer cruise", i don't think the boat going directly from woodside to the liverpool is much of a river exploration.

At £10.95 for a weekly pass, free parking at Seacombe, a 10 minute journey and a cuppa thrown in, it's a bargain. More people should commute on the Ferries. Looks like it's not publicised well enough.

Think I'll use it again tomorrow...

I agree that the direct sailing from Woodside to Pier Head can't be called a "cruise", but it's still charged as one: £4.70.
On the assumption that if you start at Woodside and intend to return, the cheapest option by far is the Merseytravel All Area Saveaway, which is £4.70 adult and £2.50 child. This is also cheaper than the family group ticket at £20.50 for 2 adults and 3 children (£16.90 with Saveaways), the only difference is that you have to get off at Liverpool and re-board.
Yesterday, I bought my Saveaway at Chester, came to Hamilton Square by Merseyrail, went over on the ferry, spent an hour visiting the Museum of Liverpool, ferry to Seacombe, bus back to Birkenhead and train back to Chester. All for £4.70.
As a matter of interest, it would have been possible to get off the ferry at Pier Head, get my return ticket and get back on the same boat, but this might not be possible if the queue at the ticket office were long.

Just as a matter of interest and to add to the dilemma, the winter timetable used to be different. It may still apply and it's worth finding out. The cruise used to go in the other direction past Cammel Lairds in the winter rather than to New Brighton.
Also, if anyone fancies a walk around Liverpool, with maps routes and history about the buildings, if you can get your hands on a copy of Liverpool Heritage Walk, probably out of print now and published by Bluecoat Press, it's well worth it. There may be others now, but that one is very good.

frank field needs supervision from a more visible hand.

as merseytravel have demonstrated the inability to operate & provide suitable services & provisions that reflect the needs of our communities I personally think it may be worth examining the possibility of other ways to spend our share of the mersey tunnel money pot we contribute towards every day.

the future of the ferry is for we of wirral to decide.. people have various expectations, ideas, thoughts, memories & opinions.
I would like to ask readers & followers of this thread to take a moment to take the opportunity to provide an insight of any thoughts and ideas you would like to share.

personally, I love the ferry and the memories it has given me & I would like them to stay but not under the current state it has been reduced to.

as a matter of personal concern I will be contacting our local members of parliment in order to raise my concerns in more detail. I also intend to enclose a copy of this thread.

I use the ferries to travel to Liverpool as the terminal is on my door step.

I find the travel provisions (bus) to Seacombe bloody awful of an evening and a Sunday.

For example, can travel far and wide on a Saveway. Chester. Near outskirts of Liverpool etc etc, but upon return by train, disembarking at Hamilton Square or Conway. once there, faced with an hourly service bus home,to Seacombe that ceases at 2227hrs!

What use is that to me if i decide to go the Vue or the Eat all you can chinese place of an evening??

Bollox.