Nice one

BBC News Report

The thing which would scare me is the second part of the next paragraph below the bit you quoted.

"Police launched raids at suspects' homes and also used automatic number plate recognition technology to spot vehicles associated with people wanted on warrant."

Now, maybe I'm paranoid because I've spent the last 20 years writing databases for a living, and of course I'm safe from it all now unless I come back to the UK, but **I can not understand** how the UK can be sliding down the road to a fully-monitored police state so quickly, and yet with so few protests (that I read about in the British media).

Of course, some may think you're already past the point of no return, and so there's nothing more that can be done about it. I can understand that point of view, even if I don't agree with it.

Depresses the hell out of me, anyway. If I hadn't already done so due to my American wife, I'd be doing my best to emigrate right around now.


Brian.

Whats wrong with the using current ANPR system and face-recognition technologies that are currently being deployed in major cities, to monitor, target and catch criminals??

They have had ANPR in the village where my dad lives since it first came about, as he lives right next to the SAS headquarters; any vehicle that isnt local gets flagged up, and monitored until it leaves the village.

The beauty of that system is, the biggest crime they have had in the past few years, was some youths braking a fence - but they were caught on SAS CCTV and the SAS Police caught them in a few minutes, and they were referred to West Mercia Police and dealt with accordingly (cautions iirc).

All it is doing, is preventing crime, prevention is better than cure imho, it doesnt only prevent crime, but it also acts as a deterrent.

I was listening to Radio Merseyside the other day, and they were discussing local policing, and some startling statistics were being talked about, since ANPR came into force, 350,000+ new applications for car insurance had been processed, as well as taxi drivers noting cuts of the rate of accidents involvoing un-insured drives in their area's had dropped from the likes of 8 per year to just 1.

The innocent and decent citizens have nothing to fear from these systems, but a hell of a lot to gain. With Anti-social behaviour, drugs, gun and knife crime and terrorism on the increase, these measures ARE needed and they DO make the streets a whole lot safer.

Id rather the government spend their money on this stuff, rather than bailing out the private and profitable banks to the tune of £100billion+.

If someone has a warrant out for their arrest, explain to me what is wrong with the police making use of ANPR to catch the ...? If someone robbed my car, explain to me what is wrong with the police making use of ANPR to recover it for me, and maybe even catch the ... who robbed it?

It's not the current use to catch criminals that worries me, it's the potential for future *misuse* of the data that's being gathered on the law-abiding majority in order to catch the criminal minority.

There have been enough examples in recent months of government incompetence in protecting data that I don't need to list them here.

As with any new development, you weigh up the pros and cons. A plus point for these systems, as you rightly point out, is their use in catching criminals. A negative point is their implications for privacy and civil liberties. You weigh up the pros and cons, and you decide whether you're in favour of the technology or not. You and I obviously disagree with regard to these systems. That **doesn't** mean that I'm not in favour of catching criminals.


Brian.

The government has far too much data on us already, there is very little in the way of privacy. Another system wont actually make any difference. As you say, most peoples personal data has already been lost thanks to all the crap that went on last year.

FYI, every single persons car details are already available to just about anyone from the DVLA for £2.50 a pop if you claim to be a debt collector etc... which imho, is a far more serious issue than ANPR and similar systems being used to catch criminals.

If you privacy warriors had you're own way, we wouldn't have any sort of databases, no sex offenders register, no criminal records bearau, no vat or company records, no employment records etc, because they are all a risk to a persons privacy and open to misuse; in other words, we would all be living in the dark ages.

not often i say this but i'm with matty on this one lol

On that last point, we're in partial agreement. Do I think anyone should be able to access those DVLA details as easily as you say? No. Do I have any problems with these other systems "being used to catch criminals"? No. The problem I have is with the data which is collected on everyone, indiscriminately, as part of "catching criminals".

The UK is getting far too keen about hanging on to data. Look at the DNA database, for example. Putting criminals on to it is one thing, but people who aren't convicted should be able to have their records removed - and the suggestion that I read that this can't be done is absolute bull.



OK, demolition of straw men time...

no sex offenders register,

The sex offenders register, AFAIK, holds details of convicted sex offenders. No problem at all with that. They committed an offence to get themselves on there.


no criminal records bearau,

By definition, the criminal records bureau holds records of convicted criminals, or those who weren't convicted but the charge was ordered to remain on the file (essentially not an acquittal). Again, I have no problem with that. They committed an offence to get themselves on there.


no vat or company records, no employment records etc

If you look at what I said before, I think I was fairly clear about making a decision on each database on its merits. Some data *has* to be held for society to function, whether it be on paper or magnetic or optical storage. But all right, let me give it one more try. Tell me when you disagree...

1) Anyone who says *all* databases are a *good* thing is wrong.

2) Anyone who says *all* databases are a *bad* thing is wrong.

3) For any new database, you need to weigh up the benefits from having that database against the downside of same, which can include privacy concerns, problems caused by data abuse or loss, problems caused by corrupted data, and so on.

All OK so far? Well, in that case, the difference of opinion we have is which side of the line something which is effectively a movements database for motorists falls. To you, it's a positive because of the benefits in catching criminals. To me, the civil liberties considerations outweigh those benefits.

Again, once you have the database, the police may as well use the collected data. You've got the (IMO) downside, you may as well have the benefits. What frightens me is the extent to which the UK seems to have gone down the road to a surveillance society, without any effective protest (judging protest by my reading of various British news websites).

I actually have less problem with the DVLA route to finding out a driver's details than I do with a system which is monitoring everyone indiscriminately. THAT'S what I'm arguing against - the routine collection of records on people who have committed no offence. IMO, the benefits from these ANPR systems don't outweigh the cost to civil liberties and the potential for abuse.


Brian.

Im all for a mass DNA database to made available to the police and prosecution service; Again, it "may" be open to abuse, although it would be hard to actually find a way to abuse it. However, there are so many cases, where the police have DNA evidence to relate to the crime, but no match on the database.

Only a few weeks ago on ITV Nightwatch, it showed the story of how a man raped multiple women in the late 80's and early 90's, and was never found. The police had DNA evidence on him, but were never able to match it against the database. Then he was arrested last year for something stupid, and they took his DNA. The DNA was matched to the man wanted for the rapes and he was quickly arrested and charged for some of the rapes. 20 years on, he had become a respectable businessman, with a family, and he was now in his 40's, yet thanks to DNA, his dark history was finally uncovered.

If someone committed a serious crime against someone I know, and the police had vital DNA evidence, but no match on the database, I would be campaigning for them to start compiling a database of everyones DNA.

As I always say, if we have nothing to hide, we have nothing to fear.


I agree.


I agree


I agree as well; but a database that helps cut crime is, imho, a good reason to have/make use of one. The fact that ANPR has assisted the police to removed 300+ criminals off the streets of Merseyside in just 24 hours, demonstrates to me, that use of databases for fighting crime, is far more important than the slight (albeit very real) risk of misuse and abuse of that database.


Yes, it does frighten most people; but not half as much as the ... who commit crimes of all kinds, frighten people. Id rather be watched by CCTV for instance, than feel completely alone on a night out in a big city with allsorts of opportunities then presented to criminals. CCTV does act as both a deterrent and crime solving tool, there is no getting away from that fact. Some crimes can never be deterred or caught by CCTV, but these are few and far between when there is a CCTV camera present.


Huh? So you feel any organisation, who by law you have to give you're details to, should be able to sell them details on to any 3rd party that wants them, so long as it is making money, but you have less support for a crime fighting database such as a national DNA database??


I understand what you are trying to say here, but honestly, crime is becoming so rife and the crimes themselves are becoming so bad in the US, that we are now having to resort to these measures... partly because we are part of the shitty EU and criminals have more rights than anyone in the EU and partly because our prison service are at breaking point and criminals do not fear the overstretched police forces.

Anything that helps to fight crime, im all for. Any other type of database, I have to think long and hard before I can make a decision on whether I like it or not. Crime is a MASSIVE issue in the UK right now, and the ANPR system is contantly proving its worth to the people affected by crime, and whilst it does that, I don't see how anyone can argue with its use.

There are other databases of course, which should be argued with, other databases which should be more locked down and less suceptible to abuse, but yesterday, 300 criminals were taken off the streets as a bonus of using the database and that is a good thing. 250+ of them will probably be back on the streets today, thanks to our entire justice system being stretched to the limit and the government enforcing stupid rules on the CPS, but that is another story altogether!!

You don't think the insurance companies would like to review the DNA of the people whom they insure, to check for any susceptibility to disease, for example? How do you fancy becoming all but uninsureable due to a genetic defect?



Again, I can see the benefits, but I don't think they outweigh the negatives.



Right. And if DNA testing becomes the holy grail of all evidence, just plug in the DNA and it tells you who to arrest, how do you protect against the faulty evidence? Either a corrupted database (believe me, it happens!) or worse yet, a corrupted database operator or scientist. Do you remember the story of a man called Stefan Kiszko?



And were I in those circumstances, I would hope that I was still able to see the wider picture, and so would NOT do so, just because it happened to someone I know. And if it were me on the receiving end, I *definitely* wouldn't want it to happen. Go down in history as the person (indirectly) responsible for the first national DNA database? No, thanks all the same.




And as I always say when someone parrots that old line, I admire your optimism. I only wish I could share it. I fear a lot of things when it comes to "infallible" databases, but then I've spent half a working lifetime seeing the sort of garbage that infests databases.




But remember, that ANPR database wasn't solely responsible for removing the 300 criminals. How many were arrested by simply knocking on their doors, for example?



CCTV is a somewhat different argument, unless you have any evidence to suggest that the data from CCTV is all being stored long-term or permanently.




No, and I didn't say that. Come on, Matt, you're not that stupid. Comparing two evils doesn't mean that I'm automatically in favour of the lesser one. The DVLA selling on details should be illegal. Is that clear enough for you? It's precisely because I think that almost any organisation will, sooner or later, find a means to sell on such databases **that I'm against the data being collected in the first place**, unless there's an overriding public need for it - and I don't believe that's the case for a national DNA database.



But if the databases are as effective in solving crimes as you suggest, surely that's going to push the UK's prisons *past* breaking point? I'm just puzzled here, I don't understand your logic.




OK, that's your view. I'm not willing to give law enforcement quite such a blank cheque as you are - especially not with the amount of their work that seems to be outsourced these days. How long do you think it would take before dossers like Group4 got access to the various databases - just for purely administrative reasons, you understand, so they could find out what category of prisoners they were transporting?




Well, I'd argue with it, but I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than myself. Why am I interested in what goes on in the UK? Simple - maybe one day, if the house prices regain some degree of reality, we might like to come back. The only reason I'm in the USA is that the UK wouldn't let my wife (an only child) bring her physically-dependent mother with her had she been the one to emigrate.




Then if the results are such (and I take your word for it), I'm even more convinced that the negatives outweigh the benefits.


Brian.

ok boys ...enough bout ANPR...heres the truth..the Police do collect a HUGE amount of information..and what happens to it al..nowt..does it get used properly..yup.
ANPR isnt the catch all that bosses make out to be..same as CCTV...its a useful tool..but it doesnt get away from having a mark one eyeball on the ground...
All the hype is as much to do with political spin as it is anything else..ANPR is mindnumbingly expensive...each car setup is in the region of 30-35k...yes!...let alone the static cameras all over the place...so that money has to be justified..hence the spin..
TBH half the time the system misreads or its too far out of date...I know...i use it on a pretty much daily basis at work.
I actually get better results using my "spidey sense" if you want the truth...and without bragging im not bad at taking cars off shite who cant be arsed getting a driving licence, or paying for their insurance...and i take great pleasure in doing so...
So brian..relax and stop being quite so paranoid..its not all bad...just remember im watching you!

i think its all good cos if you dont do anything wrong then why worry about who has your dna or anything?

LOL

your not paranoid..if they really are out to get you!

Some very good points raised by matt, Brian and Auditastic.

If the database is good or bad, large or small, my opinion is
that some bugger will still loose it in the post

I find the problem with all this data flying around the
high risk of cloning. By that i mean i could find myself
in a whole lot of trouble proving who i am.

And if any of these databases involve human input,
then were all on a slippy road.

Personally i think the majority goes along with them partly
because they dont understand or realise how much information
is held about us on databases here and there.

Its when you know what these databases can hold about you
or your friends or family you hope and pray the info is correct,
watch dog only showed last week how there were people who had
criminal checks done against them only to find they had convictions against them they had never committed.

They have been corrected now, but they all wondered how
many jobs or opportunities had been lost due to these mistakes.

I am in favour for the grater good, until it effects Mr and Mrs Good in a negative way, then questions and solutions must be found.

I'm not sure if The UK is the guinne pig with all this?
And were heading for a fall.

My thoughts anyway.

Exactly. And as the various databases become more and more interlinked, these mistakes will propagate. Even those who think they have nothing to fear aren't immune from erroneous data - and believe me, there WILL be errors. Too many people with the power to affect YOUR life, even if you have "nothing to hide", regard their systems as infallible. If "the computer says so" then it must be correct. And as this data gets out to a wider audience, whether by being legally sold or by other means, then the potential for harm to innocent people increases. Whether it's just "jobs and opportunities" as Mark says, or whether it's insurance companies finding a way to access DNA data (I notice no-one commented on that point).

But those of you of the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" persuasion, well, just keep hoping it all goes as you think, and that you don't draw the short straw for the data "anomalies". Paranoid? Well, maybe I am, but after 20 years of writing and maintaining large databases for a living, then maybe I have a good excuse. Remember the old truism, folks, "garbage in, garbage out".

My last posting on the subject.


Brian.

There was a guy in Liverpool not so long back who was extradited to Spain as his DNA matched that of a murderer.Even though various people including his boss and doctor could vouch that he was in Liverpool in work at the time of the killing he was still taken to Spain and incarcerated for approx a month before the error came to light.It seems that some one in a laboratory had read the info wrong and thus recorded it wrong. So it goes to show that no system is safe from human error.

Okay then, lets give up all our ways to fight crime, lets give up DNA testing altogether, lets get rid of the CRB, lets get rid of the sex offenders register, lets get rid of ANPR, lets have the criminals run free and do whatever they like because of this fear that people want to instill in people that these databases get it wrong.

Yes they do, everything can get everything wrong, but these databases 99.99% of the time get it RIGHT and put murderers and the like when they should be, behind bars, but oh well, let them walk the streets cos half the time the only concrete evidence is DNA and the databases cant be trusted.

Im not sure how the insurance companies are going to get ahold of police DNA databases either, also that they are cut half their custom overnight because of stupid genetic problems (yeah right, their not in business to make money I suppose). It would be very false to assume the insurance companies would even want access to a DNA database, nevermind assuming they would actually get it!! Doing so, would open up a can of worms for them, and based on the evidence, they could kill 90% of their custom potentially overnight. There is a limit to how far the insurance companies will go, and I think they have all but reached that limit, they are quite happy with only paying out 3% of their revenue.

What I find funniest, is you guys who are seemingly for the abolition of databases and against the use of DNA, would cry for criminals to be jailed on one hand, and then set them all free on the basis of DNA not being reliable enough on the other.

believe what doesnt lie - the evidence!

Hmmmm yet another case where serious and violent offender was only caught upto 18 years after the crime, thanks to DNA...

Another case to increase the argument for a compulsary national DNA database.


I feel it is correct to say, a compulsary DNA database for the police, and this man would have been caught and bought to justice many years ago. These cases keep on cropping up, how many unsolved serious crimes are unsolved because there isnt a DNA match on the current database.

BBC News Report

All right, I know I said I wouldn't post again in this thread, but this story is more than I can stand...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7409593.stm

Interesting to note that your favoured Tories seem to have reservations about it, Matt. The Lib Dems too, and even more so with them, it seems.

And Matt - no more straw men about what I am and am not in favour of **when I've already said the exact opposite** right here in this thread, OK? I *agree* with you that a national DNA database would mean that this particular rapist would have been caught earlier. I just don't think the benefits are worth the cost. That **doesn't** make me in favour of letting rapists go free, or any other piece of bull that you want to dream up and then attribute to me.

And as for all the "I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to fear" brigade, does the name "Martin Niemoller" mean anything to you all? Do you really want to see a future BNP councillor/MP with access to all your personal data?


Brian.

we just dont have freedom anymore...freedom of speech....big brother is watching us

Did I say I anywhere agreed with the phone call and email database? Because I don't, and that to me is a step too far. And I would like to see them try and implement any sort of email monitoring software on one of my servers. And if they forced it by law on UK datacentres? Id just move my UK hosting servers to my rack in Amsterdam, not a problem.

A nationwide DNA database used solely for fighting crime is completely different to supposed "fighting terrorism" and the like by logging every persons phone conversations and emails.

There is nothing wrong with a nationawide DNA database, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear; there is however problems in the way the government handle and use such data, basically we cannot trust the government. That isnt a flaw with the concept of the system, it is a flaw with country voting in a corrupt, money grabbing government.

OK, so all that you and I disagree on is exactly *what* constitutes "a step too far". I can live with that. It just means that my mistrust of this government is greater than yours - and that's a very sad state of affairs, given you're the self-proclaimed Tory.

I do think you WILL see HMG "try and implement any sort of e-mail monitoring software on one of your servers". though. It's coming, IMO. Even if Cameron gets in (as I believe it's all too likely that he will) it will only be a question of time before he revives the idea.

As long as the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" concept holds sway in the UK, Big Brother V2.0 is on the way. Or have I missed something, and you can tell me a reason why that concept can't be applied to the phone and e-mail database in just the same way that you think it should apply to the DNA database? After all, think of all those criminal gangs that could be using the phone or e-mail to plan their crimes. You could intercept them before they commit the crimes, instead of having to let the crime happen before you can nick them.


Brian.

Simple; DNA isnt an invasion of privacy whereas monitoring and replaying phone calls and emails is. It is also open to far more abuse, and the system is more likely to be hacked for criminal gain.

For example, id be constantly thinking to myself, wow this call/email is being logged when I use it. Which would have an impact on how we use the tools and utilities. The only impact a DNA database would have, is make me, and some potential criminals wary of committing a crime.

Tougher laws and sentencing would be a much better idea for the government before logging emails. Emails can be provided to authorities if they are believed to be connected to a crime already.

Then we just have no more common ground for discussion, Matt. I think samples of your DNA are about as private as you can get.

And yes, I *do* think the insurance companies would love access to a national DNA database. Sure, they make profits on personal insurance at the moment, but as science discovers more links between specific gene sequences and specific diseases, it would be too easy to filter out the "bad risks".

And that doesn't even consider the remote (I hope!) possibility of a bunch like the BNP eventually gaining power. I know, they're a bad joke at the moment, but they ARE making ground. :(( How do you fancy THEM having their hands on a national DNA database?


Brian.

You're points are very valid, both of them. The thing is, I would only be all for a database, if it was controlled and limited strictly to crime fighting needs.

The idea of the government selling on details to insurance companies (I think as much as people think the BNP are likely to gain power, it will never happen, they are not even remotely close to the leading 3 and to be honest, if they were ever voted into power, that would be the final chapter in the death of the UK imho, and I wouldn't be here), first of all, I doubt they would, if they did there would be an uprising, and secondly, the insurance companies would proba bly find it too much haslle anyway, they make something like 94% profit on their revenue as it is, they wont go killing half their custom overnight and therefore half their revenue.

As I say though, both are things to be seriously considered and the government would need to clarify its position regarding such a database, but then neither are as important to me as getting killers and rapists etc off the streets, who wouldn't otherwise because they wouldn't be on the DNA database.

Not sure if ive caught up with all of this, but it may be
because i'm older than Matty but i am siding with Brian, and his views.

By this i mean that if a DNA Database was enabled and insurance companies were allowed access to it, can you imagine the selective insurance available?

IMO the database would be a screening for future illnesses and
then insurance companies would be refusing cover for x y and z.

Its already happening by postcode for a lot of things but the DNA
would be the icing on the cake.

Personally i don't trust the government with any of our information, for one they cant look after it,
second they will probably sell it where they can,
and third, when they do have it they cant even keep it current?

I cant remember the last time i received a letter stating
who has what info about me and what it was.

Its just crazy...
Why should i have to pay a credit file company say experian
for just a name £3 to read about me? See my info is already
being exploited why dosnt the bill go to the company who want
to know about me?

I'm against too much information being in one place.
For one i'm so pleased i haven't been cloned "Financially"

I agree Brian,
what could be more private then having your DNA on a Database?


I heard something on the Radio today about the Government wanting to pass legislation to record evey e-mail that is ever sent under the anti terrorist laws?

I think they do it anyway, but making it more open.
But again another storage database about me and others with out
our concent, when and were will it end