Can someone tell me if what just happened to me and my girlfreind today is legal. We got on the train at wallasey village and got off at Birkenhed North, (one stop), we bought saveaways a few days ago ready to use whilst the car is off the road, the baby kicked off and whilst rumaging around for his bottle and dummy we mislayed the saveaways, the clippys came and we couldnt find the tickets, I explained thinking they would just make me pay for the one stop again but they issued us with a £20 fine each! then demanded the fair for the one stop journey I went to walk away and the fella stood im my way and pushed me back, i told him that if he put a hand on me again i would defend myself he squqred right up to me and i told him to get out of my personal space which after an eye to eye stand off for a few second and my worried girlfreind trying to calm the situation down he stepped back. He told me that HE HAD THE POWER TO STOP ME LEAVING THE STATION USING FORCE IF NECESSARY if I didnt pay, surly this cant be right, and i would appreciate any advice.

he has no right whatsoever to physically touch you im certain of that....

I said that too him but he reckons that he could restrain me for the police!! nasty piece of work he was.

you could write to the railway with a formal complaint threatening them for assualt ! it will all be on camera

i used to be a security guard and by law although some do break it u are not allowed to detain anyone by force, u can ask them to come back in but u are not allowed to touch them i would presume that your situation would come under the same rules. nobody is allowed to touch you it could be classed as assault.
hope this helps. like jabber says make a formal complaint preferably in writing there should be cctv.

In addition to all of this the £20 fine could be brought into question as it is punitive in nature and not within UK law......normally (see parking fines). However this is the railways who also have their own bylaws so not too sure. Certainly worth looking into. The arguement would be that they are only entitled to what they lost out on which would be the fare from the station you got on to the station you got off.

Re: the assault/detention. If they arent allowed to touch someone what constitutes a citizens arrest? Would this be the same sort of thing?

definately not allowed to touch you or your property, they can prevent you from leaving (ie standing in front of exits etc) but they cannot physically touch you...

Was it security or a train driver/conducter?

The guards are allowed to request your details. This is then checked (like the police do). It is all done by railway bylaws and you can be summons to court. If you refuse to give details then the police will be in attendance. He should not if touched you tho as far as I'm aware. Did he have his own wearable CCTV on at the time?

Thanks a lot for all the advice, the fella with the camera on his jacket was standing directly behind the fella who pushed me back, I asked the one with the camera to stand at the side so he can get all of what is REALLY happening recorded. My girlfreind has just told me that one put hs foot on the babys pram.

Did they have any ID? Do you have any officers number so you can say who it was?

Putting a foot on the pram is really out of order in my book.

I got the numbers on the fines they gave us but the shitbags wouldnt give us their names, If id have known at the time that one had put a foot on the pram id have sat there and made them call the police, but knowing my luck it would have been me nicked. They all look out for each other dont they the government agents. Meant to be enforcing the law not breaking it.

Did you have the saveways on you? If so did they give you time to calm the baby and then look for them?

I believe the technical term for them now is Revenue Protection Officers, although there are a few others such as REO's (Railway Enforcement Officers) and RCO's (Railway Control Officers).

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 s34(4) includes "questioning by persons (other than Constables) charged with the duty of investigating offences or charging offenders", so yes, he does have the power to stop you leaving the station if he had a reasonable suspicion that you were committing theft (and this can be considered theft as you did not have a valid ticket for travel).

You have a choice of pay the £40 or you can appeal it in writing within 21 days of the issue date to The Independent Appeals Service, PO Box 89, Portsmouth, P01 1EG.

My advice would be pay the fine. You didn't have a valid ticket to travel when asked to produce one. Any passenger who is found travelling without a valid ticket for their entire journey is liable to be issued with a Penalty Fare of £20 by Merseyrail Ticket Inspectors plus the fare to the destination station if continuing their journey.

The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s5(2) states that "If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses or fails on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law."

This law means they can detain and eject people using reasonable force (off a train or station) if they want to. However most train operating companies don't want their staff getting involved in the confrontational side of things.

Hope that helps

Just so you know "they" are not employed by Mersey rail, they are subcontracted security officers trained with the bylaws.

Some are also attested as Special Constables, so have similar powers to Specials.

People that can check your ticket on Merseyrail....

1. Guard onboard the train

2. Revenue Protection Officer (employed by Merseyrail) either on board train or on station platform and/or entrance/exit

3. Security/Byelaws Team (contracted by Merseyrail) either on board train or on station platform and/or entrance/exit

4. British Transport Police Officers either on board train or on station platform and/or entrance/exit

5. Merseyside Police Officers/PCO either on board train or on station platform and/or entrance/exit

2 and 3 can issue those penalty fines that you mention that you have been issued with, I think the Police just go for prosecution.

I would imagine that they all have heard the many excuses, hundreds of times and have to make a decision as to whether a person is genuine or not. The best way is to ensure that you have a valid ticket beforehand at all times.

I think you have got a good negotiation point if the bloke didn't identify himself correctly, in this case he should have told you what his employment title was.

The "I'm wearing a uniform" doesn't work in this case, because I am fairly sure there is no such crime as "impersonating a ticket collector" or whatever.

Any unwanted contact with the pram is way out of order.

Just write off, asking for the correct official complaint method and indicate if they don't wave the fines and apologise for heavy-handedness then you will make an official complaint.

You can give them the chance to back down by saying you understand that in the heat of the moment some misjudgements may have been made but that if they are convinced correct procedure was followed then you will pursue the complaint.

Mark the correspondence "Without Prejudice" and keep a copy.

Why should they waive the fines!?! No valid ticket for travel = fine plus fare for journey. Simples!!

Things have changed then, as I remember it (~30 years ago, I used to commute daily, Wallasey Village / James St.) on occasion being a bit late and no time to go to the ticket office, as the train was already in the station, jumping on without a ticket and then simply paying the guard the required fare - and all was well! I guess there was no presumption of guilt, of intent to defraud, back then? Oh well....

I agree with Wench, the amount of times they've all heard "Oh i've lost my ticket" is probably one of the reasons for such a big fine, to make up for the lost revenue.

Except that if you really have lost (or mislaid) your ticket, then there is no loss of revenue...

No no i know, but they can't prove that, our law is adversarial not inquisitorial, it's proof not truth etc. etc.

The onus would be on the individual to prove that they had purchased a valid ticket. How many people ask for a receipt for their tickets? Even if you do, there is no guarantee that it will state that it was for a ticket in the case of a saveaway.

The ins, outs and every conceivable possibility and scenario can be debated until the cows come home but it will still come down to the fact that you must have and be able to produce, when asked, a valid ticket for travel. If you don't or can't then you will be fined, and rightly so!! Why should the people who DO pay for their tickets have to subsidise the ones that don't bother? No different to car insurance.

This is all a bit maddening.

I caught a train at Leasowe to Liverpool the other day. WHen I got to Leasowe some muppet had crashed into the level crossing barrier. When I went to the ticket window the shutter was down so I couldn't buy a ticket.

When I got off at Liverpool Central I approached a ticket collector at the gate. I explained why I had no ticket and asked her what I should therefore do. She looked at me like I had three heads - as if to incinuate 'why the hell are you bothering me with this?' She rather half-heartedly then told me to go and buy a ticket. And I did! I bought a return! I could have just bought my ticket back to Leasowe but I didn't!

It irritates me that they can be so hot-headed (as in the topic of this thread) and then so 'can't be arsed' as in my case!

Isn't that what it says on all those information posters, 'if you can't produce' not 'if you haven't bought', so you're right anyway.

OK all points well taken. I still think it was cool when you could just pay the guard and he would hand-write you a ticket good for the current journey!
(and sorry if I'm drifting a bit off-topic... I will shut up now!)

I agree those days were better.

Because they may have not followed the correct procedure, rules work two ways - if they are squeaky clean then they can quite correctly fine, but it sounds very much like they overstepped their mark and didn't follow their correct procedures.

Whilst it sounds a bit pedantic, when you see how the police operate in most of the USA, they operate in a pre-programmed robotic manner, in almost every situation they know exactly what to do and how to do it, they play by the rules and if you don't it is your problem.

Didnt u read it all wench ??the baby kicked off we miss layed the tickets simples!!

I dont understand why there dousn't appear to have been a period of time in order for you to settle/ calm the baby and then opportunity to locate the tickets?

Baby kicked off climbing out of his pram and throwing his bottle as the train was pulling into the station and we didnt realise we had left them on the seat at the station.

To all those that comment about not being able to show a ticket, I challenge you to get on a train at Upton station and produce a valid ticket for travel (other than saveaways etc)

So, unfort imo 'they' were following procedure with regard to issueing the fines as you didnt have valid travel tickets. Altho i wud certainly dispute/ complain about the way you were treated ie the eyeballing and foot on the buggy! Where the passes in a bag or likely to have blown away?

My bold. Where does it say they did not follow procedures and/or protocol? Is there a copy of their policy and procedure available online? If so, please give me the link and I'll gladly go over it. However, the problem still will be that it is one word against another unless there is cctv evidence to support either side. The fact still remains that a valid ticket was not able to be produced at the time of asking.

As for the septic analogy, thankfully we're not in the States.



Yes I did read it all. However, as stated several times, the fact still remains that a valid ticket was not able to be produced at the time of asking. THAT is the Law. If you want to dispute it then go and get Legal representation or seek advice from the CAB instead of here. I'm legally trained, but my advice on here doesn't mean jack shit as it's an internet forum, it is merely classed as opinion, not legal advice. Anyone can be a keyboard lawyer, but for what it's worth, my advice would be seek proper, paid for legal advice or the CAB. To be honest, I think it's throwing good money after bad and will be cheaper to just pay the fine.

I doubt if their rule-book says that "if a person has a pram, put your foot on it to stop them getting away" - you MAY think there is a chance it does Wench.

I was also under the impression that any uniformed (one of your specialities I believe) official that has the power to detain, has to clearly identify themselves and their rank/grade on request.

I was suggesting an offer to trade MAY be a way forward on the grounds there is nothing to lose by trying, I consider the actions of the official to be sloppy at best, as I am sure others would, again you MAY think his behaviour perfectly acceptable.

I have not said that the fine is not due, merely that it MAY be subject to some bargaining given the actions of the officials.

Have you got shares in Merseyrail by any chance?

Quote from somebody sometime ..... one half of our laws are unwritten, the other half are made up!

Best thing to do.. Pay the fine.

I'm not sure why you would use a saveway for just 1 stop anyway?.

Upton Station is not covered by the Merseyrail service and therefore does not come under their penalty fare system. Arriva Trains Wales operate that line with unmanned stations and have a conductor authorised to sell tickets on-train.

OK - was the pram damaged? Does it constitute a criminal offence? Was the child injured because someone put a foot on a pram?? Nothing has been said to this effect so it is a moot point. The pram was not the issue about the Rules and Regs.



My specialties in what way?? If you mean as in Criminal Law then it's my preferred branch, yes - wtf that has to do with anything I don't know. Yes they should, but they were not detained and it was not requested going by the initial post and subsequent information given, so another moot point.


You can't trade a fine. The law was broken, end of. Mislaid ticket or not. It was not available to be produced on request. We only have one side of the story to go on, and by that comment I am not saying that the OP is lying before I'm slated. By trying to argue the fine etc, the chances are that a bigger fine may be imposed. Not a chance I'd be willing to take. I didn't say it was acceptable did I??

I didn't say you did, but at least we agree that the fine is due. Hallelujah!! As for the bargaining, see above.

No.

I'll agree with that, certainly some people on the forums I am on obviously think they make the laws or can manipulate them to suit their own case or that of others.

H has no right to put a finger on you.
The thing is he might of thought you were trying to pull a fast 1 with regards to having no ticket even if you did mis lay it end of the day everyone needs to show a ticket for their journey.
Am not condoning his behaviour.

You said you had saveaways "ready to use" does this mean you hadn't scratched them off yet? The ticket inspectors look at this as an offence too.

by the way on Stoppers are the biggest crowd of fair dodgers.

Going completely off the subject but just so you know we had made quite a few journeys that day NOT JUST THE ONE!! on our fully scratched and sealed saveaways! I was asking for advice from members of this site, which it has had a lot of different opinions which ive taken onboard, but whats pissed me off is the way its now getting sly insinuations that we were dodging a fair, I asked for advice on WETHER THERE ACTIONS WERE LEGAL, I agree that we all should be treated the same and fair dodgers fined, im not arsed about the fine I can appeal it as I have reciepts. In my opinion they went over the top by getting aggressive and all I wanted to know was could they legaly physically stop us. Thanks to everyone who have gave constructive feed back. And FU who just want a snipe.

I agree thanks hun.

No it dosent mean that at all. If your going to quote me do it in context. Her, Ill do it now to make it clear "We bought saveaways a few days ago READY TO USE whilst the car is off the road. Reads different now dont it!!

Wench, the art of mitigation is partly the ability to change black and white into grey.

If the official was unduly harassing the customer whilst the customer was attempting to find the ticket, the matter becomes grey.

If the official didn't give reasonable time to find the ticket considering the circumstances, the matter becomes grey.

As the official prevented movement of the customer, did he temporarily detain him, the matter is grey.

The official preventing movement of the pram is a distracting and threatening action which could be taken as harassment, the matter is grey.

I apologise to GALL987 that I didn't attempt to answer you question about legality, but merely made some suggestions as to how it may be possible to tackle the situation - ie threaten to make a formal compliant and see what their response is.

There seems to be two separate issues getting rolled into one here, Gall by his own admission mislaid his ticket and is willing to pay the fine with an appeal. Should his appeal be successful or not, thats that issue out of the way.
The next issue is his and his families treatment by the ticket inspector/ policeman/security whatever title they hold. It would be wrong to suggest the treatment he received was the reason for mislaying the ticket in the first place and using this as a way of getting out of paying the fine. That would not be of any use to future passenger who are met with this kind of treatment. A gesture of goodwill by the rail authorities is not needed here. What ever the outcome of the fine situation, every effort should be made to have the rail employee reprimanded and his attitude towards passengers changed.

here here i agree, the problem is about how the situation was handled by the guards or whatever they want to be called nowadays
not the issue of the fine as they can be appealed. they have no right to touch you or use any threatening or abusive behaviour to you or anyone or anything in your possession. gud luck with your appeal.

I'm supportive of the job that revenue protection offers do on trains as I pay for my ticket and so should other passengers.

Admittedly if the train is coming into the station, I would board it rather than wait 1/2 hour for another. If I get caught doing it then I'd accept the fine.

I would write to them in the first instance as they gave me £30 worth of vouchers when a guard was an arse to me (there is a thread about the whole affair on here lol). [email protected]

Good luck.

Which is exactly why I said that my advice is to seek legal advice instead of asking people who may well have no legal training whatsoever on an internet forum. If is such a big word considering it only has 2 letters. We can sit and debate the right and wrongs until blue in the face (or red if you get frustrated), it all comes down to opinion.